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Being sued for private car sale *** Claim Dismissed ***


Alesha
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In the paragraph ' I have no engineering knowledge – and I sold the vehicle to you in absolute good faith. I'm glad that you have noticed that there was no engine warning light and so there was nothing to indicate to me that there might have been any faults other than the ones that I do to your attention.' I think that this should be drew 

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My time as a Police Officer and subsequently time working within the Motor Trade gives me certain insights into the problems that consumers may encounter.

I have no legal qualifications.

If you have found my post helpful, please enhance my reputation by clicking on the Heart. Thank you

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Thank you. It's a mixture of my poor articulation, my dictation software – and my failure to read through it properly.

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That seems to be all that can be done at the moment and there is no option but to ignore. It's very likely that there will be further communication, maybe with an address. I am suspicious about the apparent reticence to supply an address but maybe I am overthinking. I will suggest to my daughter that she drafts a letter.

 

Thank you for your help.

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I think your suspicion of their failure to provide any address is entirely understandable. I have the same misgivings. I think that if this thing goes to court – which is most unlikely – that all of this can be included in your documents before the judge to demonstrate their extraordinary behaviour in all the circumstances

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  • 2 months later...

Hi. A little time has gone by but the purchaser of the car is taking my daughter to court. She is basing her claim on the fact that the oil leak was not revealed and has submitted as proof the MOT advisory. This states 'Oil leak but not excessive (8.4.1.(a) (i).' She insists that 8.4.1. refers to fluid leaks but not to engine oil! This was discussed at the time of purchase, despite the fact that she claims it wasn't and the reduction in price was not to take account of the cost of repair but was due to haggling the price down. My daughter submitted her witness statement and evidence to the court and to the claimant, as required.

 

Yesterday the purchaser sent an email and has offered to accept £100. Nothing is owed and therefore her offer is ignored. My daughter refuses to engage with her and yesterday posted a copy of her email to the court, MOT evidence and receipted invoice from garage confirming repair of housing oil filter seal (this was within the estimated cost). Copies were also posted to the purchaser. This resulted in a further email today where she repeats her claim:

 

  • fault not mentioned when sold - engine oil leak
  • MOT only confirms a fluid leak which is not engine oil
  • the fault is caused by wear and tear of the housing oil filter seal. (My daughter knew this, informed them of it and had an estimate of the cost and therefore reduced the price)

It is incomprehensible how the court could possibly find in her favour. None of this makes any sense but it is a worry nevertheless.

 

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the court will consider the price of the vehicle and the reduction offered as a result of certain faults. If the overall price reflects the condition of the car and its relative value then the claim will fail. The wording of the advert will be relevant.

 

i suspect that the claimant is hoping your daughter will wet herslef an pay up so they can claim some sort of victory in their own mind. Small claims isnt that much of an ordeal but it is bothersome to have to go through it and put a great deal of time and effort into somehting that is ultimately a waste of time

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On 01/05/2020 at 19:37, Alesha said:

Hi. A little time has gone by but the purchaser of the car is taking my daughter to court. She is basing her claim on the fact that the oil leak was not revealed and has submitted as proof the MOT advisory. This states 'Oil leak but not excessive (8.4.1.(a) (i).' She insists that 8.4.1. refers to fluid leaks but not to engine oil! This was discussed at the time of purchase, despite the fact that she claims it wasn't and the reduction in price was not to take account of the cost of repair but was due to haggling the price down. My daughter submitted her witness statement and evidence to the court and to the claimant, as required.

 

Yesterday the purchaser sent an email and has offered to accept £100. Nothing is owed and therefore her offer is ignored. My daughter refuses to engage with her and yesterday posted a copy of her email to the court, MOT evidence and receipted invoice from garage confirming repair of housing oil filter seal (this was within the estimated cost). Copies were also posted to the purchaser. This resulted in a further email today where she repeats her claim:

 

  • fault not mentioned when sold - engine oil leak
  • MOT only confirms a fluid leak which is not engine oil
  • the fault is caused by wear and tear of the housing oil filter seal. (My daughter knew this, informed them of it and had an estimate of the cost and therefore reduced the price)

It is incomprehensible how the court could possibly find in her favour. None of this makes any sense but it is a worry nevertheless.

 

 

Please let us know as soon as you receive a claim form and scan it and post it here in PDF format.

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If I follow the OP correctly, I think it's past the claim form stage?  ("... is taking my daughter to court... My daughter submitted her witness statement and evidence to the court and to the claimant, as required...and yesterday posted a copy of her email to the court,...").

 

But I may be mistaken as it's not clear to me what stage this is at.  I don't think there's been any further update since the OP's daughter collected a recorded delivery letter from the purchaser, but that letter had no address to reply to!  Presumably there has been at least a letter before claim since then?

Edited by Manxman in exile
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Thank you for your replies. Your advice is much appreciated. We are at the stage where the claimant is required to pay the hearing fee by the 12th May - the case is to be heard on paper. She is offering to accept £100 in settlement. The repair to the oil leak (oil filter housing seal) was £197.07 - my daughter had been professionally advised that it would be around £200. There is no evidence of any further repair being required.

 

My daughter has submitted MOT certificate which states as advisory '8.4.1(a)(i). Oil leak not excessive' (MOT dated 28th November 2019)

The claimant has also submitted this as evidence claiming that this refers to fluid leaks in general not oil! She includes as evidence the government description of 8.4.1. This does refer to fluid leaks in general but the advisory clearly states that the fluid in question is oil. To say that this was not revealed is nonsense.

 

She appears to be claiming that there is a leak of some other unspecified fluid which has leaked into the oil. This caused it to burn at a higher temperature and that my daughter must have been aware of this  and did not reveal it and has therefore sold her faulty goods. (Her words). She had been driving the car daily including that morning with no problems.The only reason that my daughter can think of for the leak to suddenly become as excessive as they describe is that they did not properly tighten the oil cap after inspection - she denies having removed the oil cap which is untrue. The claimant has submitted a witness statement from her boyfriend which naturally corroborates everything she has said.

 

I am sure the judge will be as mystified by all of this as we are but it is so ridiculous that I keep wondering if there is something we have missed. (A minor annoyance is that the claimant has written on my daughter's witness statement and submitted this as evidence). I may be mistaken but I believe that the only pieces of evidence are the MOT certificate and the invoice detailing the repair, both  of which support the defence.

 

 

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with regard to the comments made about what COULD have happened

DO NOT GUESS OR OFFER OPINION on this, she has already said she is not mechanically minded so leave it at that.

If the oil cap was observed being removed the  daughter can mention that but if she was told abotu this by someone else including the claimant then she didnt witness anything so not evidence.

Basically she needs to write up a defence that is simple inasmuch as it follows a timeline and is easy to understand who said what in that timeline

so on xxth of month year i advertised a car ( make model year  mileage ect) for sale ( produce advert for the sale) and an the ssth on month the claimant viewed it, test drove it and purchased it having negotiated a discount of the offer price because the MOT showed an advisory for ( whatever).

on the yyth of month year I received a communication fro the purchaser ( claimant) about a fault that wasnt present or known to me at the time of sale.

 on the zzth of month year the claimant claimed/stated I must have known about this (or whatever was said to place some onus on the seller) and that she wnated the defendant/seller to make good her costs of £xxx.

It is denied that the defendant is responsible for the costs of the repairas they have no knowledge of the fault, no mechanical knowledge that should have made them aware of any latent problems and there was no omission of facts when offerig the car for sale so it is a matter of caveat emptor with regard to the subsequent problems.

 

 

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Thank you for your replies. Just an update - the hearing is set for the 9th June on paper.

  The only real documentary evidence that the claimant has submitted are MOT with advisory Oil leak but not excessive 8.4.1 (a)(i). (December 2019)

She includes as evidence a screenshot of government description:

 Other environmental items. 8.4.1 Fluid leaks.  'A leak of fluids such as engine coolant, screen wash, and fluid required for selective catalyst reduction are not reasons for failure.' (after detailing how testing should be done)

 

In her words:

'fault not mentioned when sold - engine oil leak (it was but this is verbal and her boyfriend has also made a witness statement to the effect that it wasn't mentioned. She also saw all documentation prior to sale including MOT)

MOT only confirms a fluid leak which is not engine oil (it clearly states that it is)

the fault is caused by wear and tear of the housing oil filter seal'

 

The only other documentary evidence is the invoice for repair - £197.07, which she is claiming. (The advertised price was reduced from £2250 to £1900 - it is a 13 year old Mini). My daughter refused her offer to settle for £100.

 

To add insult to injury, she has written on her copy of my daughter's witness statement and submitted a screenshot of it as evidence. (My daughter submitted her documents before she did - they have both submitted MOT evidence in support)

 

Surely it will be thrown out.

 

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Have you posted up their defence? If not, please could you post up in scanned PDF format and maybe we can help to produce a skeleton argument

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Yes, I think you can submit additional papers. Please will you upload the defence as I have already suggested – in scanned PDF format.

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Thanks for this – but we need to see their defence.

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I don't have hard copy. She submitted her documents to my daughter by email, as photo attachments which my daughter then forwarded to me. I'm not able to save and attach. I could copy verbatim.

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Have you tried running them through Adobe scan on a phone, you would find that they would convert into PDF.

Also, there should be copies on the moneyclaim online website

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I couldn't access Moneyclaim and I don't have Adobe on my phone. I have therefore typed out the witness statement. The English is a little strange in places but the claimant is Polish and English is not her first language. I have typed it verbatim.

 

 

Quote

 

CLAIMANT’S WITNESS STATEMENT

 

1. I have contacted the defendant via email and a recorded delivery sign for letter prior to the application for small claim with the court to work a solution out. The letter is at Royal Mail depot as not picked up and the email is unanswered. Before logging a claim I have left her 14 days to respond. Proof A (Post office proof of posting)

(The letter was successfully delivered at the second attempt. As stated in earlier post there was no address, there was no mention of 14 days to respond and the only reference to taking action was that she was thinking to take it further)

 

2. The car was originally advertised for £2500 prior to my contact to Ruth in the first place. I have seen her add when it was already £2250. When contacting her on Monday 20th January after taking the car to the garage and recovering the issue of the engine oil leak, she admitted she was conscious of the fault but this has never been mentioned before. She has also told me about the £350 reduction in price for the allowance of the repair, however this was from £2500 to £2250. Therefore in her statement point 2 and 7 the reduction for £350 is not for the repair allowance. Proof B Page 3. Proof E (The price was reduced from £2500 to £2250 initially as she felt it was a little high. The claimant responded to the advertisement at the price of £2250 therefore the original reduction was irrelevant. She was advised by the MOT tester that the cost of the repair would be around £200 which was the case)

 

3. After the test drive of the car, I have asked for the lowest price she would take, and it was £2000 as she have said. I have offered £1900 and she agreed to it, due to wanting quick and hassle-free sale. She has not mentioned the reason for the acceptance and neither the allowance of repairs. She has already included that in the reduction of £2500 to £2250. Proof C. Proof B Page 2

 

4. The engine oil leak was never discussed or enclosed in any forms. MOT certificate declares an oil leak , however on gov.uk/MOT web page the advisory for 8.4.1 is categorised under other environmental items (8.4), fluid leaks (8.4.1) which are engine coolant, screen wash and fluid required for catalyst. Proof D. Proof D. (She has clearly misunderstood this if she thinks oil is not a fluid. This could have been explained at mediation – the gov.uk statement is that leaks of these particular fluids are not reasons for MOT failures)

 

5. Garage receipt to prove the fault and the amount owed, Proof F

 

 

 

 

 

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Thank you. I realise asked for the defence before – but in fact you are the defendant.

We need to see their claim form. Also, have you responded to the witness statement?

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read upload carefully it tells you what do to on your device...

 

dx

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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  • 5 weeks later...

I've always been getting claimant and defendant muddled up in this case.

This means that you won!

Fantastic news. Well done. What an unnecessary load of hassle. But you stuck by it and you saw it through. So Kudos to you.

 

Thanks also for the update – many people don't bother

Presumably you've got an order for your costs – any indication of when these will be paid?

 

By the way, was there a hearing or was it simply a telephone event?

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  • BankFodder changed the title to Being sued for private car sale – county court action – ***Won**
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