Drunk Wife opened Ladbrookes online betting account and used my Natwest Card to spend £13k!!

[dx100uk]

no bank should allow £13k to go out to anyone without getting specific authorisation directly from the customer.

however NatWest are useless......

 

 

 

 

[Mart1980]

As you can see attached from there own rules that no bank card other than is on the account can be used yet it was allowed and now they are acting dumb and not wanting to pay these transactions back straight away as they should by there own rules.!

doc1.pdf

 

I agree no phone call from my bank to check the payments.

Surely I should call the bank and ask for a charge back due to this and also that the payments were sent to a online account that was not the same name as the bank card.

[Mart1980]

Thank you every one for your advise on this I think most people agree that I should contact the bank and start a chargeback process due to there being no call from the bank and also because the payments were made to account that is not in my name which should never be possible.

[dx100uk]

you don't start a chargeback you DEMAND IT..

 

here are some general notes should this fall (and I expect  it will) with NatWest saying the payments were made under a continuous payment Arrangement CPA once the card was registered with ladbrookes and that they NatWest cannot chargeback..

 

GENERAL NOTES ON CHARGEBACK & Continuous Payment Authority & BACS 
 .....
 We have been telling people to put a letter into their bank instructing them 
not to make any payments under any circumstances to these companies
 .
http://whatconsumer.co.uk/visa-debit-chargeback/- it works!
usually this should be done using the number on your debit card
 .
 banks MUST follow written intructions from their customers !
.
CANCELLING YOUR DEBIT CARD DOES NOT STOP CPA'S
 .
 This fsa guide has now been updated:
 .
http://www.fsa.gov.uk/static/pubs/consumer_info/know_your_rights_guide.pdf
http://www.fca.org.uk/news/continuous-payment-authorities-your-right-to-cancel
https://www.fca.org.uk/consumers/unauthorised-payments-account
 .
 Here's the text:
 .
 Cancelling a regular
 card payment:
 .
 When you give your credit or debit card details to a company and authorise them to take regular payments from your account, 
 such as for a gym membership or magazine subscription,
 it is known as a ‘recurring transaction’ or ‘continuous payment authority’.
 .
These are often confused with direct debits, but do not offer the same guarantee if the amount or date of the payment changes.
 .
 In most cases, regular payments can be cancelled by telling the company taking the payments. 
 .
 However, 
 you have the right to cancel them directly with your bank or card issuer by telling it that you have stopped permission for the payments. 
 Your bank or card issuer must then stop them – it has no right to insist that you agree this first with the company taking the payments.
 .
 Be aware, though, that you will still be responsible for paying any money that you owe.
and that CANCELLING YOUR CARD WILL NOT STOP THE CPA
 .
 ..
 .
 New june 2013
 .
 Regulator orders Banks and mutuals to review complaints about not cancelling recurring payments from November 2009.
 .
 Consumers who have set up a regular payment from their account will now be able to successfully cancel that arrangement 
 by contacting their card provider, the Financial Conduct Authority said.
 .
 The FCA has been examining how easy it is for customers to cancel Continuous Payment Authorities (CPAs) 
 due either to payday lendersicon or for other regular payments such as subscriptions or gymicon memberships.
 .
 CPAs, which are also commonly called recurring transactions or recurring payments, 
 are relatively easy to set up but can be hard to cancel, causing problems for consumers trying to manage their finances,the FCA said.
 .
 Now, following the FCA review of how the largest high street banks and mutuals process requests to cancel CPAs, they have agreed that they will ensure that when 
 a customer asks for a recurring payment to end, that will be sufficient to cancel the arrangement. They have also confirmed that should a payment go through by 
 mistake following cancellation by a customer the customer will be refunded immediately.
 .
 In addition to securing this commitment, the largest banks and mutuals have agreed to review every individual complaint they have received about the non-
 cancellation of a CPA and to pay redress where payments have continued to be made despite the customer cancelling the arrangement. This applies to all complaints 
 since November 2009 when the Financial Services Authority, the FCA’s predecessor, began regulating banking conduct.
 .
 Clive Adamson, the FCA’s director of supervision, said: “It’s important that consumers are confident that banks are meeting their everyday banking needs. Today 
 customers can be confident that when they ask for a Continuous Payment Authority to be cancelled – it will be cancelled - and that it can be done easily. 
 .
“We recognise that historically this is an area where some customers have struggled but the banks and mutuals have responded positively to our work on this issue. 
 From now on we expect them to be getting this right. In addition, they have committed to review past complaints.”
.
 .
 Also mentioned your displeasure that as whomever took your money had obviously attempted this many times 
 probably activating your banks own anti fraud software - nobody had the decency to inform my you this was going on.?

.
 .In the FSA's own words:
 .
 ..
 What should I do about a payment from my account that I didn’t authorise?
 .
 Your bank must refund an unauthorised transaction. 
 Money can only be taken from your account if you have authorised the transaction 
 or if your bank can prove you were at fault – 
.
see below.
 Contact your bank immediately if you notice an unauthorised payment from your account.
.
 If you are sure you did not authorise the payment, you can claim a refund. 
.
 However, your bank does not have to refund you if you do not tell it about the payment until 13 months
 or more after the date it left your account.
 .
 Your bank must refund an unauthorised transaction
 .
 ------------------
 .
 Your bank may only refuse a refund for an unauthorised transaction if:
 .
 ? it can prove you authorised the transaction 
– though your bank cannot simply say that use of your password, 
 card and PIN proves you authorised a payment; or
.
 ? it can prove you are at fault because you acted fraudulently, 
 or because you deliberately, 
 or with gross negligence, failed to protect the details of your card, PIN or password in a way that allowed the transaction
 .
 -----------------------
 .
 How quickly must my bank refund me for an unauthorised transaction?
 .
 The bank must make the refund immediately unless it has evidence that one of the above reasons applies. 

 Your bank may ask you to answer some questions and fill out a form confirming what has happened, 
 but it cannot delay your refund while it waits for you to return the form.

 If the bank has evidence that one of the above reasons for refusing a refund applies, 
 it may investigate before making a refund 
 but must look into it as quickly as possible. 

 If your bank rejects your claim for a refund it should explain why.
 If the transaction was on a credit card, the refund may not happen immediately. 

 But the card issuer cannot charge interest or ask for repayment of the amount unless it can prove you are liable to pay
 

 

 

 

[unclebulgaria67]

Follow the advice from dx.

 

You mentioned you were on holiday at the time the Ladbroke account was set up and transactions made ?  Was your Wife in the UK at the time ?  If not, where were you on holiday ?

 

Another obvious point which you may have realised.  Although you mention your Wife was drunk, she made a clear decision, which was to set up the Ladbrokes account using your surname, rather than the maiden name she uses for other important accounts.  So the use of the surname and your debit card, seem to have been a clear decision, rather than one made under the influence of alcohol.  

 

 

[Mart1980]

On holiday in the uk

we are married but all her id is in her maiden name and she has kept that.

 

The account however was set up with my surname so even if the company would of bothered to do checks and actually ask for id before anyone deposited were made there wouldn't be any id and

 

also the bank card that was used is in a mans name and the account was in a womans name.

 

How the bank card actually authorised I will never know

that would mean anyone could find a bank card and use it to bet online in someone else's name and then take the funds back to their own bank account.!

 

In this day and age I didnt think this was possible especialy with a company that turnover billions a year and must have the most up to date technology to make sure this never happens.

[dx100uk]

no sadly it's the otherway around

the bigger the company, the less they even bother make even basic checks.

 

bookmahers have always been that way

we are making the money, we don't even remotely care about some tiny fish loosing their tiny bit of money that means everything to them and their family

 

if they wanna gamble, they must have a habit and openly admit to exploitation as gambling a mental weakness.

[unclebulgaria67]

Think you probably realise that the spending was a deliberate action, rather than someone who was drunk, for the reasons eluded to.

 

Most gambling sites are signed up to schemes designed to stop those with gambling addiction, from doing foolish things, such as spending £13000 in a day. How Ladbrokes and the Bank have allowed this to happen is beyond comprehension. It is not just using a debit card that does not match the Ladbroke account holders name, but the lack of control measures.

 

Start off with the Bank, but also with your Wifes involvement start a complaint with Labrokes.

[Mart1980]

I was just adding in that it just should never be possible at all and no I did not make any deposit and I did not receive any goods or services so it's my bank fraud department I need to speak to and demand they explain how this was possible from there end also.

No phone calls or anything and it's not like 13k gets spent in a few hours every day so how they never called me and stop the card I dont know.!

I would like to thank every one for there view in this very difficult situation.

 

I will keep you all updated about the outcome.

[Manxman in exile]

Just a couple of comments which may or may not be helpful:

 

1.  I have previously charged over £12k on a single debit card transaction.  I asked the merchant if I would need to give my bank prior notification and they said "No - the bank will contact you if they need to."  I was surprised by this and decided to test it.  The transaction went through and my bank never contacted me.  Admittedly this was four years ago and I don't know how security has changed since then.  Also I've never been asked to go through "two tier authentication" or whatever it's called.

 

2.  Is the extent of the authority your wife has to use your card clear?  (eg not to spend xxxx on gambling sites).  I presume it is but I expect your bank may raise an eyebrow that she has access to your card, had your 'phone(?) and you were present (is that right?).

 

3.  It seems to me that Ladbrokes are in clear breach of their own T&Cs - as you've described them.  It seems blatantly obvious for many reasons that somebody ought not to be able to open a gambling account in one name funded by a bank card in a different name.  I'd have thought that could be an offence under money laundering legislation.

 

4.  I think the money ought to come back from Ladbrokes.  The only issue I see is who their contract is with - you or your wife?

 

Just my observations.  No idea if they're worth anything.

 

EDIT:  Cross posted with the three previous posts

Edited January 12, 2020 by Manxman in exile
cross post

[Mart1980]

Thank you for the reply manxman.

 

I was not present with her

 

we were with a lot of family and me and the fellas were in the pub watching the football all day then we met up in the night in another bar it was on a holiday camp.

 

The account was opened and no id at all was asked for and 27 deposits to be exact were made with a bank card in my name.

 

Even if they asked for id she can not produce it because all her I'd is in her maiden name and the account was set up with my second name.

 

No she has my cards in her bag most of the time and uses it for shopping for food and household.

 

I have three phones all in my name one the wife uses one that I use and one for my teenage son uses.

 

Ladbrokes are acting dumb and saying they can not find/trace the transactions to any account and that I need to contact the bank and police.(I fear they are using this as scare tactics in case my missus gets in to trouble for using my card without my knowledge)

 

I sent all the transactions in order and dates as they asked and all made on the same day well within 5 hrs to be exact.!

 

There reply was they can not find them and theres nothing more they can do there end.!

[dx100uk]

just to be clear..

I doubt she actually authorised the payment each time.

I would suggest that when the deposited limit was reached each time, all she did was say click a figure that came up om the screen of the ladbrookes site, not enter the card details each and every 27 times?

 

dx

 

[Manxman in exile]

Do you think Ladbrokes are simply saying it's a problem for the bank to sort out, or could they be saying they need information from the bank to allow them to trace the payments into the account your wife set up with them?

 

It seems to me that it's Ladbrokes who is at fault here.  Less clear about the bank who might possibly be able to argue that as far as they were concerned the payments appeared to be authorised.  (I don't think that's a strong argument for them to put forward, but I don't know).

 

I know nothing about online gambling (or gambling itself!) but I presume it's pretty much an unregulated industry with no ombudsman etc to complain to?  If you had to take them to court I suppose it could be awkward for your wife...

 

So maybe the most straightforward option is to pursue the bank as suggested above?  (Like dx100 I don't have a high opinion of NatWest).  Might still have difficult questions to answer.

 

Good luck!

 

(Ps - just a thought and others may know better - could the fact your wife was drunk (sorry) be a help, or could it make matters worse?  Just wondering if worth exploring.  On the one hand you could argue she didn't understand what she was doing and couldn't therefore contract with Ladbrokes, but on the other hand the bank could argue you shouldn't have "allowed" her access to your card in those circumstances.  I simply don't know...)

[unclebulgaria67]

That is exactly what Ladbrokes are saying really. That this is not their problem. They have millions of pounds in transactions every day and it is the Banks that authorised the instructions of their Bank account holders, to send Ladbrokes the money.

 

When the OP contacts his Bank, he should send them a copy of Labrokes terms and conditions, so they can see that these state that Ladbrokes should not have accepted the card payment.

 

If there is a gambling addiction issue here, rather than just being drunk, then I think that is a stronger argument.

 

[Mart1980]

Here is ladbrokes t&c clearly saying you can only use a debit card in the account holders name yet multiple payments were allowed to be made 27 in total.!

[BankFodder]

Rather too late for your situation am afraid

 

Quote

People are to be banned from using credit cards to place bets in an attempt to curb problem gambling, the Gambling Commission has said.

The ban, which starts on 14 April, comes after reviews of the industry by the commission and the government.

A total of 24 million adults in Britain gamble, with 10.5 million of those doing so online.

Separate commission research shows that 22% of online gamblers using credit cards are classed as problem gamblers.

Neil McArthur, Gambling Commission chief executive, said: "Credit card gambling can lead to significant financial harm. The ban that we have announced today should minimise the risks of harm to consumers from gambling with money they do not have.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51103006

[Manxman in exile]

2 hours ago, BankFodder said:

Rather too late for your situation am afraid

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51103006

 

Yes.  I heard a report on the Today programme this morning about the banning of credit cards for gambling.

 

It would appear that the Gambling Commission is the regulatory body for gambling in the UK.

 

The OP could try contacting them and looking at their complaints process re Ladbrokes acting in breach of their own T&Cs and apparently washing their hands of the matter:  https://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/for-the-public/Your-rights/Concern-about-a-gambling-business.aspx

 

(Potential downsides: 1. possibly causing problems for the wife;  2.  do they have any real power to force Ladbrokes to cough up in a reasonable timescale;  3. was this particular transaction a UK one?  Many online gambling businesses are based in Gibraltar or the Isle of Man etc).

 

EDIT:  They obviously do want to "minimise the risk" to consumers, however, so I'm sure they'd be at least interested in the OP's plight.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Manxman in exile
addition

[Mart1980]

It was a debit card used

I have sent an email now to ladbrokes stating all the t&c,s and how was this possible to happen at all.!!

 

I even had a live chat and asked the question and their own staff said it was impossible for a card to be accepted other than the name of the ladbrokes account holder yet 27 payments were allowed.

Attached is the conversation.

 

My bank also did not call me when all these transactions were made in quick succession but my wife has admitted they did send a txt to my phone with just a Y or N of transactions which is crazy because as is the case here anybody could verify this easily if they had both card and phone.

 

Who do you think I should complain to further as ladbrokes are trying to wash their hands of this.

 

At first I did not know who used the card so I had called my bank and told them and they said they would refund them but the time has come and gone that they said this would happen and when I have spoken to my bank they have just said they are still looking in too it.

 

My wife finally admitted to using it although she holds the purse strings it should only be used for household items ect not online gambling and I did not authorise this use.

 

Do you think I should ring the bank and tell them I now know who used it or keep chasing the online betting company that multiple t&c,s were broke from there end.?

 

Attached is the live chat i had with them.

Thanks guys 

 

[BankFodder]

I think that whatever you do, you should be absolutely straight dealing with the bank – squeakyclean – because if they get wind that it's your wife and that you knew about it and you didn't inform them, then it will affect your standing with them as well.

Frankly I think there is going to be very little you can do without getting your wife into a very serious trouble.
I'm very sorry because I'm sure this is gonna put a very serious strain on things – but there is no point in being anything but completely upfront about this.

[Manxman in exile]

I may be being unduly pessimistic but the problems I see with the bank are:

(1) it would appear that your wife was authorised by you to use the card, and from the bank's point of view they aren't going to know of any restrictions you have put on that authorisation

- your wife inputs all the necessary security information and the bank's systems are not going to know that it isn't you making the transaction; 

 

(2) if your wife had your 'phone and the bank sent a SMS text message to it asking for authorisation of the transaction, again the bank doesn't know that it isn't you authorising it. 

(AIUI even two tier authorisation - or whatever it's called - depends upon a security code or request for authorisation being sent to the bank account holder's 'phone.  Clearly if someone else has access to your 'phone the bank won't know any better.  I'm not saying two tier authorisation is a good idea - but that appears to be what we have).

 

I would be concerned that the bank might want to investigate this further and this could cause problems for both you and your wife. 

 

You've given her (albeit limited) authorisation to use your card

- this could well be in breach of your bank's T&Cs and/or they could say you've contributed to this loss yourself. 

If your wife has exceeded the limits of her authorisation, then she might have a bigger problem.

 

I think the problem lies with Ladbrokes and either they need to sort it out or you need to complain to the Gambling Commission. 

But what if the Gambling Commission or Ladbrokes decide to investigate further? 

 

I have no idea whatsoever whether either of these organisation might come to the conclusion that your wife has committed some sort of fraud and be obliged to report it. 

(So long as your wife wasn't intentionally acting "dishonestly" when doing this, I don't think there is a fraud, but it might be a big risk and very embarrassing - or worse - for both of you).

 

I'd be inclined to seek paid for legal advice. 

If you run your own business do you have a solicitor that you use?

 

(Just noticed cross posted with BF. I agree honesty is the best policy but there could be serious repercussions.  I'd consider getting professional legal advice if I were you).

 

EDIT:  The bank may feel obliged to report a fraud too.

[unclebulgaria67]

Complaint to Bank and Labrokes at same time is required. 

[Mart1980]

Update where I am at on this one

 

the bank want all my wifes details and they will prosecute or they said take the loss.

 

Ladbrokes are now ignoring my emails even though they broke both their own I'd t&c and allowed deposits to be made in somebody elses bank card against their t&c and have admitted that they would never have allowed any winnings to be withdrawn and they keep referring me to call the bank and police.

 

[dx100uk]

Lloyds will not prosecute on spousal fraud if that's what you mean?

[Mart1980]

They said because it's my wife they would need all her details and prosecute my wife which I am not willing to do its natwest.

 

The same with ladbrokes they are ignoring the emails now for 3 days and saying I need to tell my bank.

 

I have a conversation with ladbrokes chat were they say you can not use somebody elses card and the system wouldn't allow it but they seem to think it is fine to take the deposits somehow without my wife giving any id and using a bank card in a mans name but if she did win they would not pay out because that card was used

[dx100uk]

sorry I meant NW

they will not prosecute spousal fraud.

opens up too many wormholes they would never want opened in court.

forget about that.