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Centrica/CST claimform - Industrial Training Bond .


BadMojo
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On 14/07/2021 at 18:24, BadMojo said:

 

date to submit defence = 13.08.2021 (33 days in total)

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Posted (edited)

The link provided says 33 days from date of claim. However form 'N9CPC Response Pack (04.14)' provided when I acknowledged the service, says I have 28 days from date of claim to submit a defence.

 

33 days from 13th July is actually the 14th August. (Error on my part)

 

28 days from 13th July is 9th August.

 

I'm just looking for clarification. Not picking holes.

Edited by BadMojo
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it is a total of 33 days from the date on the claimform to right (take being day 1 in the count)

 

claimforms are deemed to be served by mail in 5 days, + the 28 = 33.

this is all explained in the link you read and calculated correctly 

however as you day 33 is a Saturday, courts close at 4pm fridays so you must file by then the 13th

 

so in a little over a week (as long as you've done AOS on MCOL as instructed) you need to be thinking about your defence and posting it up here well early for checking. 

 

you will need to pointout the crap POC and the fact they have not sent a detailed one as they have said, will also need to pointout in a round about way, that the training agreement is unsigned without giving the game away!!

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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In what format must the defence be submitted?

Do I just draw up bullet points, or just use free text?

 

Do I have to be very specific, or use legalese?

Can I be more emotive and use circumstantial arguments, like 'so-and-so only had to pay £xxx when he left', or would that require statements from so-and-so?

 

I've started working on the defence. There are lots of threads on this forum. I have to admit, they all seem pretty different, e.g parking fines, catalogue debts, etc, but I'll come up with something and come back.

 

I was speaking to an ex-colleague earlier today (he's also received the claim/impending court action form) and he's working on his defence too. He's in touch with more people than I am and he's learnt that there are dozens of others that have also received letter before action/of claim, and/or actual claim (court) letters. So it seems Centrica are well aware of what they're doing and have instructed CST to hit out and get some money for them.

 

My current union (Unite) have told me, well, their solicitors have told me, there's not much they can do and suggested I should reach out again to the GMB, who were my union when I was with BG. So I've got the number of the union rep and I'm going to text him tomorrow; ask if he's aware of what's going on and if GMB have had any involvement, or can provide any advice, assistance, or information - you never know.

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No legalese needed, just a very basic short generic defence poss mentioning the crap poc they have filed and that to date there is no signed agreement to the training.

 

I'm sure @Andyorch will help during the week but do go use our enhanced google search box on our page and type in say claimform loan

 

that will give you most of the generic para's that should be in all defence s

 

post your idea up here well in advance and we can fine tune it

  • Thanks 1

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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They are not parking fines..but thats immaterial to you at present. But important to remember just in case.

 

Base yours on say a loan or card claimform defence the std paras to use will be the same.  No rush!!

  • Thanks 1

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Posted (edited)

As I have previously mentioned, I requested some paperwork directly from Centrica and they emailed me my employment contract and a breakdown of the claim.  Does this mean I cannot refer to the lack of documentation from CST Law in relation to the matter (CPR 31.14), specifically a signed agreement relating to the training bond and any paperwork provided/signed at the academy? It might be splitting hairs, but if I can I will; but if I shouldn't, I won't. 

 

This is what I have so far. I'll admit to finding it a bit of a struggle filtering out clauses/paragraphs in the plethora of threads on other matters, e.g. credit agreements, parking tickets, etc.:

 

Your claimant’s claim in respect of an overpayment of salary/expenses is without merit and is denied its entirety.

 

Your letter of claim dated 8th June (not delivered until 22nd June and therefore in breach of Pre-Action Protocol) and claim form dated 13th July, reference particulars that have not been provided and furthermore, have still not been provided, despite my requesting them from CST Law (pursuant to CPR 31.14).

 

No evidence as to my liability for the alleged overpayment has been provided: Specifically, no proof as to the overpayment of salary, or expenses.

 

No signed agreement specific to the repayment of any training costs, or sums therein, has been provided, nor was incorporated into the original employment contract. (Can I state this if I am saying I have not received any documents?) Regardless, the pursuit of any such costs is nothing more than a speculative charge, a penalty to disproportionally punish a breach of contract, and therefore without merit and unenforceable. Thus, the claimant is put to strict proof to evidence its cause of action and contractual costs and what loss it has suffered.

 

 

Edited by BadMojo
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1.The Claimant's claim is in respect of an overpayment of salary/expenses, full particulars of which have been previously supplied.

 

just stating over payment of salary, is not good enough they MUST detail exactly how this came about.

what has been sent to you previous to the claim, does not 'count' so request again in CPR

 

what you have included above wont be the format of your defence no.

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Posted (edited)

I've tried to respond to the lack of signed documents relating to the training bond at the same time suggesting that any such bond is arbitrary and unenforceable.

 

I know people that have been released without any bond and personally know of one guy that was only asked for £400.

 

The cost of the training was subsidised by the government and mostly to internal departments and other engineers. I don't know if this has any bearing, or should be omitted.

 

Any advice would be appreciated, as I'm finding it quite difficult.

 

Centrica provided the documents I have attached in previous posts, after the claim was received. I'm concerned if I say I have had no response from CST Law regarding my CPR as 'stretching a point', as I have received paperwork resulting from contact with Centrica directly.

 

A friend in the same boat as me has been talking with CST and asked them for evidence of the 'overpayment'. They have told him verbally and in writing (an email) that whilst they seek a response from their client regarding the issues he has raised, they will place a hold on legal proceedings.

 

It's my understanding from this forum that he should not deviate from the court's timeline and regardless of what CST Law have said, respond as per the court's requirements - correct?

Edited by BadMojo
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yes correct, don't get 'spoofed'.

 

ok if you went and read a few of the court claim threads i pointed too earlier, you'd gain a some perception upon how the court process works, you  as a member of joe public, are called a 'litigant in person', this gives you certain 'leeway', so don't keep worrying that by stating xyz you are placing yourself in some kind of 'trouble' that the will annoy the judge and cloud whatever decision he makes, it won't.

 

it doesn't really matter the claimant has previously provided 'some' information, everything they intend to rely upon in court to support their claim and 'counter' your defence MUST be produced, at the witness statement (disclosures) stage regardless to CPR 31:14. the same applies to you for your WS.

 

1.The Claimant's claim is in respect of an overpayment of salary/expenses, full particulars of which have been previously supplied.

 

as an example. here are some std phrases you need to inc from our std holding/no paperwork defences


 #####Defence######

The Defendant contends that the particulars of claim are vague and generic in nature.

The Defendant accordingly sets out its case below and relies on CPR r 16.5 (3) in relation to any particular allegation to which a specific response has not been made.

 

 

 A CPR 31:14 request was made to the claimants solicitor, requesting disclosure of all documents on which the Claimant is basing their claim. The claimants solicitor to date has not responded. 

 

 It is therefore not accepted with regards to the Defendant owing any monies to the Claimant and the Claimant is put to strict proof to:

 a) show how the Defendant has entered into the training bond and;
 b) show how the Defendant has reached the amount claimed for and;

 8. As per Civil Procedure 16.5 it is expected that the claimants prove the allegation that the money is owed

 

 10. By reasons of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief.
 

  • Thanks 1

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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is your mates claimform earlier or later than yours?

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Posted (edited)

I'm working on the defence again. In relation to following the requirements of 16.5:

 

Quote

Content of defence

16.5

(1) In his defence, the defendant must state –

(a) which of the allegations in the particulars of claim he denies;

(b) which allegations he is unable to admit or deny, but which he requires the claimant to prove; and

(c) which allegations he admits.

 

(2) Where the defendant denies an allegation –

(a) he must state his reasons for doing so; and

(b) if he intends to put forward a different version of events from that given by the claimant, he must state his own version.

 

Do you think I should respond specifically to the claim mentioning overpayment of salary/expenses? I just thinking the claim form does not mention the training bond at all.

 

I'm also considering the merits of mentioning how long it took the letter before claim to arrive (dated 8th June, delivered 22nd June)?

Edited by BadMojo
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OK. How about this:

 

The Defendant contends that the Particulars of Claim are vague and generic in nature and as such fails to comply with CPR 16.4. The Defendant accordingly sets out its case below and relies on CPR r 16.5 (3) in relation to any particular allegation to which a specific response has not been made.

 

The Claimant has not complied with paragraph 3.2 of the PAPDC (Pre Action Protocol). Their letter of claim dated 8th June 2021 was not received by the Defendant until 22nd June 2021. It is respectfully requested that the court take this into consideration pursuant to 7.1 PAPDC.

 

The claimant’s claim in respect of an overpayment of salary/expenses is without merit and is denied its entirety.

 

It is therefore not accepted with regards to the Defendant owing any monies to the Claimant and the Claimant is put to strict proof to:

 

a)     Provide signed copies of all employment contracts or agreements that form a part of the claimants claim.

b)     show how the Claimant has reached the amount claimed for.

 

* Should this bit not be asking how the claimant has reached (come up with) the amount ££££ they’re claiming for?

 

As per Civil Procedure 16.5 it is expected that the claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed.

 

By reasons of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief.

 

Or should I just use yours verbatim? I appreciate this may be frustrating for you as you see it week in, week out, but this is quite overwhelming.

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i've updated the defence above

see what @Andyorch thinks 

 

defence due friday 4pm

 

 

  • Thanks 1

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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I will run through the topic later

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

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Posted (edited)

I'm off to bed now and unless I'm advised differently, I will use what is above. I will probably have to submit the defence first thing in the morning as I will be tied up in work all day. Do I just copy and paste the text into a box on the MCOL website? Any words of advice/warning for that?

Edited by BadMojo
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I wouldnt......its not fit for purpose...unfortunately I have not had time to finalise it today due to matters beyond control I have read the full topic now and will be able to draft it tomorrow ...you have until 4.00pm tomorrow to submit it on line..or even over the weekend although it wont be processed until Monday.

 

Its your choice if you wish to submit the above but I very much recommend against it.

 

 

 

.

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

 Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group The National Consumer Service

 

If you want advice on your Topic please PM me a link to your thread

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Defence Centrica..pdf

 

Please check the above for accuracy and insert the amount marked in red.

 

Andy

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We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

 Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group The National Consumer Service

 

If you want advice on your Topic please PM me a link to your thread

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Posted (edited)

There was also a retention bonus of £1000 that was also recovered from my last payslip (which I don't dispute). So I'll amend para 4 to reflect that?

 

4. On receiving my final months’ salary of Nov 2017 the claimant had already deducted the alleged amount stated and my final salary payment was nil which would normally average around £1600 net after deductions. The final deductions were an amount of £3000 (+£1000 retention bonus recovery). This sent my final pay slip into a negative -£2797. I received no other correspondence from BG regarding the training bond, demands to pay it back and/or instructions on how to do so.

 

Over the several months we were being trained, we were given/shown much paperwork; some needed signing, some did not. I do not recall one regarding the training bond, or signing one regarding the training bond. However, ex-colleagues tell me this may have happened.

 

Centrica have not provided these documents and when asked to specifically supply them they essentially say they do not exist as there are 'no more documents to send you'. With regard to this, I'm a little uncomfortable with para 5. Can/should I amend to say, 'I do not recall...' ?

 

5. I do not recall signing any agreement in connection to the alleged amount, or agree any payment arrangement should my employment not exceed the three years.

Centrica Defence_edit.pdf

Edited by BadMojo
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thank you andy

 

dx

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Has anyone ever experienced 'technical issues' when trying to upload their defence? I've pasted the text and when I click next or save it fails with:

 

'We are sorry, but your request has been rejected owing to one or more technical reasons. Please check your input and try again. If you continue to get this message then please contact the Money Claim helpdesk.'

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MCOL often has issues

don't worry too much about it.

 

try again before near 4pm

but it wont hurt if you have to await till monday

 

as long as you are only copying the text from the PDF as from after the claimants poc you don't need that

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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