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f04107180

Received MS90 for vehicle I had sold and not longer the keeper of

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Hi all, 

 

I'll try keep this clear and break it down 

 

1. Sold vehicle early Jan 19 (can't recall exact date, BACS came few days later) £50 Bacs transfer, DVLA form filled and sent next day. 

 

2. Week or so later received a NIP - furnish driver details of an offence in our now ex-vehicle. I called the number on one of the documents which was Met Pound Perivale. Told them vehicle sold and DVLA form sent, they casually said discard the letter - I shredded it. Didn't read it further.

 

3. 2 Months later we receive court summons with copies of the documents at which point I came to learn is a S172. The document I didn't read which had an option C. If you longer have the vehicle let us know etc. I return court letters pleading "not guilty".

 

4. I visit a police station to make an enquiry as at this point I am not aware of what has happened after I've sold the vehicle. Turns out someone did a hit and run, but abandoned the vehicle. Police reported the incident on the 24th Jan 19 around 3pm. No description of the male just statement from victim.

 

5. I gather evidence of my whereabouts that day and time, manger provides biometric clock in and out sheet for they week. I work as a van delivery driver and that clock in and out covers the time of the incident. DVLA gave document stating we were not registered keepers as of 20th Jan 19. I gather proof of my online activity when I was selling the vehicle  gumtree posts, emails etc. 

 

6. During trial 9th December 19, found guilty, no discussion of the evidence we gave as proof I wasn't driving that vehicle and of the DVLA letter.  (Which tells me I shouldn't even have received this letter, how can they not have real time data systems already). Fined £229, I accept as I didn't reply to the letter. I have 6 points for motorway speeding prior. Magistrates said with total 12 points you get 6 month ban, any reason why this would not be good, told them my wife's mobility scheme vehicle will not allow me to be named driver for her any more. Also my son requires transport due to his learning disabilities stopping him from travelling alone. Finally I would lose my job. 

 

7. They said: as it would affect innocent parties we will not ban you, they did not mention the points. I left court thinking I've learnt a lesson about letters and got lucky. Two days later I received a letter stating I have been endorsed with 6 points. Called courts they confirmed this. So I got the points but no ban, I understand this now. However the reasons they didn't ban me still get affected with this conviction - lose job and can't driver wife in mobility vehicle.

 

8. I want to appeal. But not sure I can afford the costs. 

 

I'm really struggling with understanding why I get points for not replying to a letter, am I being convicted for the driving offence? I have proof I wasn't driving. Or does the failure to reply to S172 warrant 6 points regardless, seems like this whole thing needs reviewing. 

Now my employer is waiting for premium increase and will decide if I keep my job or not. 

 

Any advice will be helpful to us, legal professionals might leave me more out of pocket seeing as I may lose my job. 

 

 

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The six points are not for simply 'not replying to a letter', The letter was a request to identify the driver when an offence is alleged to have been committed. This is separate from the original offence. There are few defences for this offence, but no longer being the owner is one!

 

The fact that the 'hit and run' occurred the day before the registered owner change took place is unfortunate for you, but all the details that you amassed to show you could not have been the driver is irrelevant as it is the failure to identify that you were charged with. My local magistrates court fine £660 + £60 Victim surcharge and £85 costs in addition to the 6 point endorsement for failing to identify!.

 

This does reinforce the mantra of ' read and re-read' any document that has a legal aspect.

Edited by Gick
spelling

My time as a Police Officer and subsequently time working within the Motor Trade gives me certain insights into the problems that consumers may encounter.

I have no legal qualifications.

If you have found my post helpful, please enhance my reputation by clicking on the Heart. Thank you

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Thanks for the reply, definitely agree about read and re-read, what a lesson that could have email been avoided, feel really silly in front of the family now. 

 

I understand I was vague about the offence of not identifying the driver, I understand that but how do points on my driver's license make any sense, when my driving isn't in question? If it is, then I can prove I wasn't the offending driver. That is logical to me. Plus how can I identify a driver of the vehicle as it had been sold?

 

I read this, would it apply to me? "The S172, sub-section 4, states that you shall not be convicted of failing to provide driver information if you can show that you used reasonable diligence to ascertain who was driving at the time of the incident or offence. Roughly translated, this means trying your best. " What can we try if we sold the vehicle. 

 

 

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You could have filled in the section of the S172 request with the name and address of the person to whom you sold the vehicle!

 

The six points is to penalize anyone who thinks they can avoid a conviction for something like a speeding offence (generally only 3 points) by ignoring the request for driver identity (part of the Notice of Intended Prosecution letter)

 

There could be many serious offence resulting from the 'hit and run' such as a)No insurance, b) no MOT, c) careless/dangerous driving. Even causing death by careless/dangerous driving. Are you getting the idea now why failing to identify is treated so seriously and the penalty is so high?


My time as a Police Officer and subsequently time working within the Motor Trade gives me certain insights into the problems that consumers may encounter.

I have no legal qualifications.

If you have found my post helpful, please enhance my reputation by clicking on the Heart. Thank you

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The endorsement and fine have nothing to do with your driving. As mentioned, the conviction is for "Failing to Provide Driver's Details". It doesn't matter where you were or what you were doing at the relevant time and it is of no use proving it. The offence is failing to respond to the request.

 

Section 172 (4) describes the statutory defence that a defendant has to the charge. The time to present such a defence is at your trial, which is unfortunately done and dusted. It is unlikely to have been of much use to you anyway because, as I understand from your post, you were not "The person Keeping The Vehicle" at the time of the alleged offence. S172 says this: 

 

(2)Where the driver of a vehicle is alleged to be guilty of an offence to which this section applies—

(a)the person keeping the vehicle shall give such information as to the identity of the driver as he may be required to give by or on behalf of a chief officer of police or the Chief Constable of the British Transport Police Force, and

(b)any other person shall if required as stated above give any information which it is in his power to give and may lead to identification of the driver.

 

[My Emphasis]

 

 

Your responsibility, therefore, was not to provide the identity of the driver (where Section 172 (4) provides a defence) but to provide " any information which was in your power to give....". The only information you could give were the details of the person you sold the vehicle to.

 

Your problems began when you were told to shred the original request. Had you simply responded as I suggested above that would almost certainly have been that. However, what's done is done.

 

I really don't know how an appeal would be likely to fare. It might be worth consulting a motoring solicitor (some give a free initial consultation). You should think seriously about this problem because the endorsement you now have (MS90) will be absolutely crippling in insurance terms. I suggest posting your problem on www.pepipoo.com. You will get a varied view from a number of experienced contributors on there and it may help. 

Edited by Man in the middle

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Thank you both for the reply.

 

It still does not make sense,

 

I get the seriousness of the offence

(There could be many serious offence resulting from the 'hit and run' such as a)No insurance, b) no MOT, c) careless/dangerous driving. Even causing death by careless/dangerous driving. Are you getting the idea now why failing to identify is treated so seriously and the penalty is so high?)...

 

But I have proof I did not commit it, fine I didn't help identify the driver but how is 6 points justified? 

 

"The time to present such a defence is at your trial, which is unfortunately done and dusted."... I presented this at the trial but they were simply interested in them not receiving a reply. 

 

None of this makes reasonable sense as to why my driving licence gets affected.

Am I the only one seeing this with any logic or am I missing something?

 

thanks, I tried to register with pippoo.com but they have a silly human proving tool which asks who issues drivers licenses in UK, type the second letter. I.e. NATO would be OBUP .. I put EXMB for DVLA. It won't accept it. Tried DVA too. No email to contact them for support either.

 

I'll definitely lose my job from what I'm told as the insurer will push it sky high.

They couldn't care in the courts, this is the stuff that makes people homeless, it was an innocent mistake. 

 

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7 hours ago, f04107180 said:

But I have proof I did not commit it, fine I didn't help identify the driver but how is 6 points justified? 

As I said earlier, you do not need to prove that you did not commit any driving offences. That may be why your trial saw you convicted. The issue is whether or not you provided the required information.

 

Unfortunately the statute says that if you are convicted of a S172 offence the  court has no option (bar exceptional circumstances which do not seem to apply here) but to impose six points. The penalty is there to prevent people from ignoring requests for information and thus escaping prosecution for driving offences but it is not a defence to show those offences could not have been committed.

 

I really think you should consult a solicitor to explore the prospects of an appeal. I don't know why you are having difficulty with pepipoo.com (note the spelling). If you persevere it may be worth it but a solicitor is almost certainly your best bet.

Edited by Man in the middle

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Thank you. So from how you've worded things now for me, it seems 6 points is mandatory, it's not the choice of the magistrates. 

 

I'll see what a solicitor says and what costs are involved. I thank you both.

 

 

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On 19/12/2019 at 01:11, f04107180 said:

thanks, I tried to register with pippoo.com but they have a silly human proving tool which asks who issues drivers licenses in UK, type the second letter. I.e. NATO would be OBUP .. I put EXMB for DVLA. It won't accept it. Tried DVA too. No email to contact them for support either.

 

 

Shouldn't DVLA = EWMB, rather than the EXMB you tried?

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