I forgot to update my address when I moved - Statutory Declaration - Bailiffs - DVLA

[anon060anon]

Rough timeline for my issue below. Would appreciate advice as I am freaking out BIG TIME! 
 

Sep '17
Insured and taxed CAR1 with ORIGINALPLATE when living at FLAT1- all documents correct and in order.

Oct '17
Put PERSONALISEDPLATE on CAR1. Inform Car Finance company, but forget to tell Road Tax or Insurance that CAR1 now had PERSONALISEDPLATE

December'17
Left FLAT1, moved to HOUSE1. Updated driving license to address of HOUSE1, and inform car finance company. Forgot to update V5 doc or the insurance for CAR1.

September '18
Renewed insurance for CAR1, but still with all paperwork as ORIGINALPLATE, which was inadvertently inaccurate, as PERSONALISEDPLATE was on the car. Taxed CAR1, but this time as PERSONALISEDPLATE.

December '18
DVLA identify that PERSONALISEDPLATE does not have insurance (because when I renewed the insurance, I insured LICENSEPLATE). They then send £100 fine to FLAT1 for keeping a vehicle without insurance. New tenants bin it.

January '19-June '19
DVLA send series of reminders and increasing fines and notices to FLAT1 that all get binned by new tenants. They send a summons in May that also gets binned. 

July '19
Prosecuted in absentia at Swansea Court for keeping a vehicle without insurance. Found Guilty. Fines passed to debt collection agency.

August '19
Remove PERSONALISEDPLATE from CAR1 and put PERSONALISEDPLATE on retention. CAR1 returns to using ORIGINALPLATE. Sell CAR1, buy CAR2. Update insurance, ownership documents and tax. All paperwork in order. 

September '19
Renew insurance for CAR2 with all paperwork in order.

December 11th
Old letting agent contacts me to say that bailiffs have turned up at FLAT1 with permission to take possessions to the the value of £660.

December 12th
After speaking to debt collection agency, my insurer the DVLA and the Court, find out I’ve been charged and found guilty of Keeping a vehicle without insurance after ignoring correspondence for a year.
Speak to Court and book an appointment to make a statutory declaration, as I have had absolute zero awareness of my clerical errors nor their attempts to contact me.

December 13th
Insurer calls to inform me that they've cancelled my current insurance policy, as the underwriters consider the charge against me to be an unacceptable risk. I then scramble to call my partner whose insurance is also now void, yet still driving to visit patients.
 

December 17th is today

December 20th is my appointment with the magistrate to sign a statutory declaration. 

 

Ask - can someone advise me on:

What to expect on Friday?

What do I need to bring/prepare?

Should I enter a plea, and if so, what?

Will this charge be on record? If so, what record?

I'm a teacher, is this going to disrupt my DBS?
I travel to the States for a work trip in January - will this cause me issues at the border?

 

So yeah, I'm freaking out. Being sloppy with paperwork has led to a real nightmare...

 

Thanks in advance!

[anon060anon]

Just adding a notes that may be relevant based on things I've read elsewhere on the forums and on some further information I've receive in the post after requesting some documentation from the courts:

Firstly, I want to be really clear that I take responsibility for not informing the relevant bodies of changes to address and registration plate. I have a responsibility to perform these tasks, and I didn't fulfil it. If I need to be chastised before receiving advice, then I'll take it! That being said - the lessons have been learned, and I will be evangelising the need to ensure your paperwork is correct to everyone I meet for the rest of my life.

The Single Justice Procedure notice that has been photocopied and posted to me shows I was issued a FPN in early Dec '18 for being the RK of a vehicle that did not meet the statutory insurance requirements contrary to Section 22 of the Road Safety Act 2006.  In early May '19, a DVLA employee signed a witness statement re: Failure to comply with Insurance Requirements, and the certificate of service by post was stamped end of May. 

How 'honest' should I be? I've seen other posts where they don't suggest letting DVLA/Courts know that you were driving the car 'without insurance' and 'without tax'. Also, letting them know that you failed to notify them of a change in address? I would rather be honest, but I don't want to run my mouth unnecessarily if it's going to cause further headaches.
 

The court that handled the initial charge is a different court to the one that I am attending on Friday. Can't tell if this is relevant?
 

Is there a chance that I could contact DVLA, explain the situation and offer to pay the original £100 fine?

As I have now had an insurance policy cancelled (I think, unfairly) - does anyone know how can turn this around? My new policy has cost an arm and a few legs.

Will this be an endorsement on my license? Will I have to declare this to employers/security checks/DBS/Insurance?

So I can prepare myself, what is the best case scenario for Friday, and what is the worst?

I have no issue with coughing up for fines...but I want to do all I can to try and make sure this isn't on any record anywhere at any time.

THANKS AGAIN TO ANYONE WHO SELFLESSLY SHARES THEIR EXPERTISE AND EXPERIENCE WITH STRANGERS ON THE INTERNET

[dx100uk]

Stop panicking...

look at it logically.

The car wasnt uninsured.

You simply put a diff reg plate on it.

 

so in your sd, text of which you can write before you go.

almost explain what you have in your 1st post. But thin it down.

all you have to do in the sd is to prove the car was insured,but you changed reg.

 

that should cancel bailiff s for now .

 

now what the next stage is im unsure till i can read up too

but i expect when its all said and done everything will be sorted

then you can inform the ins co the dvla fine was an admin mistake too. They should unroll that too.

 

BE back later

[anon060anon]

Thanks for the reply, @dx100uk. I've certainly calmed down since last night. Common sense says I haven't done much wrong...but the letter of the law may see it differently. Guess I'm just trying to figure out how the magistrate is going to approach it.

I've trawled through the site and have seen a huge amount of information relevant to different elements of my situation being shared by the users tagged below. Sorry if it's poor etiquette to mass tag helpful users - but I would really appreciate your time and relevant expertise.

@BazzaS, @renegadeimp, @DragonFly1967, @Gick, @ericsbrother, @Raykay, @martin2006, @Bailiff Advice, @CAGBot, @Man in the middle, @unclebulgaria67

[Peterbard]

The issue will be if the court accepts your SD. When did you find out about the court case, the one you said was held in absentia, and when did you submit your SD.

 

If the difference is more than 21 days, you may have a problem, and have to convince the magistrate that there was a very good reason you didn.t apply earlier.

 

[Man in the middle]

He found out about it on December 12th.

He has not submitted an SD yet but has an appointment to make his declaration on Friday December 20th.

Since that is within 21 days of learning about his conviction the court where he makes it will have no option but to hear it.

 

So, with that out of the way, let’s look at your problem.

Firstly it is important you understand what making a Statutory Declaration (SD) means.

 

If you are convicted of an offence and you were unaware of the proceedings against you, you can make an SD.

This has the effect of setting aside your conviction and voiding any penalties imposed.

You can make an SD before a Magistrate, a solicitor or Commissioner for Oaths.

If you make the SD within 21 days of learning of your conviction it must be heard; if it is outside that time it may be heard.

The person hearing it will decide whether you have a valid reason for making it late (but this does not apply in your case).

 

When you make it you will simply be swearing that you knew nothing of the proceedings that led to your conviction.

You will not be required to prove that you did not and you need provide no evidence to support it.

The person hearing your SD is not there to enquire into its truth. He is there simply to witness and sign it.

 

The notes that go with the SD form (which you will complete – with the assistance of the court’s Legal Advisor) says this in its guidance notes:

The person who hears the declaration need not enquire into the truth of it. That person’s function is limited to hearing the declaration, and certifying that he or she has done so by signing it. If the declaration turns out to be untrue, the defendant making it may be punished for perjury.

 

What happens after you have made your SD is that the court may ask you to enter a plea to the original offence.

 

Reading your circumstances quickly it seems you should enter a NG plea.

It is here that some evidence of what has happened with your change of plates etc. may be helpful.

 

The prosecutor may “take a view” when you show him that or he may not. If not you should maintain your NG plea.

The matter will not be heard then but instead set down for trial at a later date.

You can then have a think about how you can defend the matter properly.

Even if you are convicted, the offence is "non-recordable" so I do not believe it should have an effect on your DBS report. Ditto for the USA, though I'm not 100% sure of that so a check with the US Embassy may be in order.

 

The offence does not carry an endorsement so it depends on what you are asked as to whether you must disclose it. The rule I adopt is "if in doubt, tell them." If you don't need to and you have it doesn't matter, but if you do need to and you haven't it certainly does.

[dx100uk]

posts moved

please use the exist SD discussion topic

keep the OP's topic clear please

se

 

[anon060anon]

I’m not sure what previous drama I’ve accidentally stirred up, but I haven’t come here to cause issues...and I certainly haven’t colluded with anyone! Happy to verify this in any way suitable. I’m just a chap sloppy with paperwork, trying to avoid a criminal record.

 

I didn’t receive any of the info because I moved out in Dec ‘17 and the alleged ‘offence’ wasn’t committed until a year later when I was living elsewhere.

 

I have no issue handing over some money for a clerical error. However, I have absolutely no interest in accepting any kind of endorsement, charge or conviction because I didn’t send a letter to the DVLA 2 years ago.

[dx100uk]

sorry about that.

normal service resumed.

 

dx

 

[anon060anon]

 @Dodgeball, if they accept my SD (and I can’t see a reason why they wouldn’t (let’s not get into whether they can or can’t approve/deny) as I have ample proof that I have been completely unaware and have acted ASAP to rectify when aware, well within 21 days)

 

is your advice to enter a guilty plea?

What would be the outcome then?

I’m happy to pay a fine, just don’t want any kind of mark on my record.

 

If the magistrate accepts SD, do they have the power to make this all go away?

imagine I hadn’t made any mistakes and all my paperwork was flawless and I was completely beyond reproach

- do they have a mechanism that would make everything vanish and the world return to normal on the very same day?

 

Apologies that this has opened ancient cans of worms - I appreciate the community’s input.  

[Peterbard]

Plead guilty and you will have to pay your original fine, less a discount.

The enforcement will stop completely. 

By all means if you are sure plead not guilty, but twelve months is a long time, under the circumstances, and I know its probably a silly point among present company, but you are guilty.

 

 

[Manxman in exile]

49 minutes ago, Dodgeball said:

Fact remains that if the OP decides to take this to court, they risk a criminal conviction.

This should be clear. Also the court may not accept a SD, of course, otherwise why would it have to be passed before the magistrate..

 

 

So you damn well should be.

 

Hasn't the OP already been convicted?

 

"July '19
Prosecuted in absentia at Swansea Court for keeping a vehicle without insurance. Found Guilty. Fines passed to debt collection agency."

 

[Peterbard]

I got it, statute bar, well you where way off the MARK there weren't you.

[Peterbard]

2 minutes ago, Manxman in exile said:

 

Hasn't the OP already been convicted?

 

"July '19
Prosecuted in absentia at Swansea Court for keeping a vehicle without insurance. Found Guilty. Fines passed to debt collection agency."

 

Tell me you are joking, right?

[Man in the middle]

51 minutes ago, anon060anon said:

is your advice to enter a guilty plea? What would be the outcome then? I’m happy to pay a fine, just don’t want any kind of mark on my record.

 

If the magistrate accepts SD, do they have the power to make this all go away? So; imagine I hadn’t made any mistakes and all my paperwork was flawless and I was completely beyond reproach - do they have a mechanism that would make everything vanish and the world return to normal on the very same day?

 

As I said earlier, from your description I believe you have the makings of a defence. As far as I understand it your vehicle was insured. However, before embarking on a Not Guilty plea it may be worthwhile consulting a solicitor (some provide a free initial consultation) as, without research, I'm not quite sure how the law fits your predicament.

 

Once your SD has been accepted although the Magistrates have powers to order the case be re-heard, in practice it is usually left to the prosecution to make that decision. The magistrates have no power to make the matter "go away". They are only witnessing your declaration which has the effect of setting aside your earlier conviction. If you are convicted (either by pleading guilty or by being found guilty at trial) you will have a criminal conviction (albeit a "non-recordable" one), but the offence does not carry an endorsement or penalty points. What effect this will have on the various vetting processes you mention would best be directed to those needing the results.

[Manxman in exile]

18 hours ago, anon060anon said:

So @Dodgeball, if they accept my SD (and I can’t see a reason why they wouldn’t (let’s not get into whether they can or can’t approve/deny) as I have ample proof that I have been completely unaware and have acted ASAP to rectify when aware, well within 21 days) - is your advice to enter a guilty plea? What would be the outcome then? I’m happy to pay a fine, just don’t want any kind of mark on my record.

 

If the magistrate accepts SD, do they have the power to make this all go away? So; imagine I hadn’t made any mistakes and all my paperwork was flawless and I was completely beyond reproach - do they have a mechanism that would make everything vanish and the world return to normal on the very same day?

 

Apologies that this has opened ancient cans of worms - I appreciate the community’s input.  

 

I understand MitM's advice to be that you plead Not Guilty initially to give you some breathing space to decide whether you actually have a defence to the original charge.  If it looks like you have no defence, change your plea to Guilty to  mitigate costs and fine. 

 

Dodgeball's advice seems to be to plead Guilty from the outset as he is of the opinion that you are guilty as charged.  (And actually he may be right.  You insured your car but you did so under the wrong reg. number.  Now in one sense it could be argued that that was a simple mistake of fact on your part - you gained no advantage by doing so, it was a simple error - but I suppose it could be argued that because of that mistake, your car was not legally insured.  I don't know the answer to that).

 

From the point of view of having a conviction, I don't see that it makes any difference whether you plead Guilty or Not Guilty.  If you lose, you've been convicted either way.  You'd need to check whether a conviction for no insurance would affect entry to the US or your role as a teacher.  (I don't know enough to comment further but there may also be cost/fine implications depending how you plead).

 

I would be a bit worried about the insurance cancellation which you will probably need to declare forever.  That might be a good reason in itself to plead Not Guilty in order to try to overturn the original conviction and then work towards removing the original cancelation - if you can.  (I assume the T&Cs of your policy allow them to cancel if you are convicted of no insurance?  It seems a bit odd to have your insurance cancelled for - err... - not having insurance...)

 

Hope that makes sense and hope I've interpreted MitM's advice correctly.  (I see Dodgeball and MitM have posted more while I've been typing this).

 

17 hours ago, Dodgeball said:

Tell me you are joking, right?

 

If I'm wrong please share so the OP can understand (and so can I).

 

OP - I may well be mistaken, but so far as entry to the US is concerned, I seem to recall that it's offences involving "moral turpitude" that they worry about?  Have you any guidance as to what is and what is not acceptable to them?

 

OP - just for the sake of completeness, and if you want to cast your net a little wider, you may want to try a couple of other forums.

 

Regarding whether you are actually guilty of the "without insurance " offence (dx100 and MitM both seem to think you may have a defence, Dodgeball seems to think you don't have a defence, and I don't know) and whether you should plead Guilty or Not Guilty if asked after your SD is accepted, you could try asking on pepipoo:  http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=5

 

They mostly deal with speeding offences but I would expect them to cover insurance as well.  If you do try there, I understand you can't register with a Hotmail address.

 

I would be a bit more concerned about your cancelled insurance.  As it stands, you will forever have to answer "Yes" to the question "Have you ever had an insurance policy cancelled by your insurer?" - and as you have discovered, this is very expensive, if you can get cover at all.  What would concern me is even if you are successful with a Not Guilty plea and even if you can get your original insurer to nullify their original cancelation (which dx100 seems to think they should do), will some record of that cancelation still appear on some insurance database somewhere?  (I know common sense would say that the cancelation should be treated as having never happened, but I'm not sure that insurance works on common sense.  I'm not trying to unduly worry you, but it's something I'd want to know more about.)

 

You could try exploring this question on the Insurance board on the Motoring sub-forum here, or you could also try on the Insurance board at MoneySavingExpert:  https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=21

 

I'm not suggesting you'll get better advice from either pepipoo or MSE than you will from here, but you may just want to invite other opinions to see what people think.  (Or it may just become more confusing...)

 

 

 

[Too late to edit previous post]

 

What would worry me is even if you are found Not Guilty of the insurance offence, and even if you get your original insurer to "revoke" their cancellation, do you still have to answer "Yes" to the question "Have you ever had a policy cancelled by your insurer?"

 

Maybe I'm being overly pedantic and making a mountain out of a molehill, but you understand my point?

Edited December 18, 2019 by Manxman in exile
cross posts

[dx100uk]

I would hope the any ins co. when told that the originator of the information that caused them to null an insurance policy states for whatever reason, sorry our alert was wrong, given proof of such, should also do the right thing too.

 

I don't know where I specifically read it, but i've def seen a case some years back exactly like this concerning a personalised plate.

whereby everything was undone. i believe it was also a famous celebrity too. 

[Man in the middle]

53 minutes ago, Manxman in exile said:

Regarding whether you are actually guilty of the "without insurance " offence (dx100 and MitM both seem to think you may have a defence, Dodgeball seems to think you don't have a defence, and I don't know) and whether you should plead Guilty or Not Guilty if asked after your SD is accepted,

 

Just to confirm, I am also in the "don't know" camp. I think the issue is a little too complicated for a definitive answer to be provided on an internet forum. However there is a fair chance that you will be asked to enter a plea immediately following your SD tomorrow. If you simply want to get the matter done and dusted then pleading Guilty is the answer. However, in view of your concerns about the consequences of a conviction I think you may do well to take advantage of the "breathing space" a NG plea will provide. An early guilty plea would see you entitled to a 33% discount on any fine imposed. Technically that full entitlement is lost as soon as a NG plea is entered. However, should you decide to change your plea before your trial it would be a harsh court which reduces that discount and if they did, it would only be reduced to 25% provided your change of plea was made known in good time for the trial to be vacated.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Man in the middle

[Manxman in exile]

2 hours ago, dx100uk said:

I would hope the any ins co. when told that the originator of the information that caused them to null an insurance policy states for whatever reason, sorry our alert was wrong, given proof of such, should also do the right thing too.

 

I don't know where I specifically read it, but i've def seen a case some years back exactly like this concerning a personalised plate.

whereby everything was undone. i believe it was also a famous celebrity too. 

 

I would certainly hope you are right.

 

I'm now very cautious about insurance because we nearly had ours cancelled a few years ago.  Our car had been written off and we insured the new one with a different insurer.  My wife arranged the new insurance but omitted to tell them that we'd had a windscreen claim with our old insurers on the old car.  (Not her fault - I'd dealt with the windscreen claim and she'd forgotten it - so had I actually).  Fortunately the new insurers were very understanding and accepted that it had been an honest oversight, but only after writing to us threatening to cancel for non-disclosure of a claim.

 

2 hours ago, Man in the middle said:

 

Just to confirm, I am also in the "don't know" camp. I think the issue is a little too complicated for a definitive answer to be provided on an internet forum. However there is a fair chance that you will be asked to enter a plea immediately following your SD tomorrow. If you simply want to get the matter done and dusted then pleading Guilty is the answer. However, in view of your concerns about the result of a conviction I think you may do well to take advantage of the "breathing space" a NG plea will provide. An early guilty plea would see you entitled to a 33% discount on any fine imposed. Technically that full entitlement is lost as soon as a NG plea is entered. However, should you decide to change your plea before your trial it would be a harsh court which reduces that discount and if they did, it would only be reduced to 25% provided your change of plea was made known in good time for the trial to be vacated.

 

I think you're right.  I think it's very difficult to predict whether the magistrates would convict in these circumstances or not.  (Illustrates one of the perils of personalised number plates that you swap between cars!).

 

A problem I see with pleading guilty is that it would (I assume) undermine any attempt by the OP to revoke the insurance cancellation, which could be costly over the years.  That's assuming that the insurer was entitled to cancel the policy upon learning of the conviction and they didn't act unfairly.  I wonder if it makes a difference whether the insurer would simply refuse to offer cover to somebody with an insurance conviction, or would they just charge a higher premium?  Depends on their T&Cs I suppose.

 

This may be of some reassurance to the OP

 

Quote from unclebulgaria, #2:

 

"Many people misunderstsnd the question in regard to cancellation. The question is whether you have ever had insurance cancelled. What Insurers really mean by that is that you have had an insurance cancelled because Insurers believed you had deliberately given wrong information, there was an attempt to commit fraud or you failed to disclose information so could not be trusted.

 

As long as Insurers have confirmed in writing that you do not need to declare cancellation, then you are safe not to mention it to other Insurers."

 

Looks as if the OP needs written confirmation from their old insurers whether the cancellation needs to be disclosed to other future insurers.  (If I were the OP I'd start a new thread in the Insurance board to make sure this advice applies to my situation).

[Man in the middle]

2 hours ago, Manxman in exile said:

What Insurers really mean by that is that you have had an insurance cancelled because Insurers believed you had deliberately given wrong information, there was an attempt to commit fraud or you failed to disclose information so could not be trusted.

 

I would be very wary of adopting the strategy of guessing what insurers mean. The question is usually quite clear, unambiguous and without provisos. I think the decision whether any cancellation influences a new insurer's decisions rests with the new insurer not the old one. If you have been asked if you have ever had a policy cancelled and you have I suggest it is declared. The potential consequences of not doing so if you have a very expensive accident are too horrendous to contemplate.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Man in the middle

[Peterbard]

Pleading guilty is an entirely different scenario of course, in this case I see no other sensible choice.

 

Its not up to me of course but apart from anything else,

The options are simple, plead guilty, because you are, 1)because the repercussions of pleading innocent are so dire if you ae caught. 2) You can claim the is discount and the matter will not appear on any record.3)The op said on numerous occasions, that paying the fine is not a proble

 

Plead innocent, and you get the opposite, plus  losing the reduction to the original fine. (because of the discount on guilty pleas).

 

I cant see any room for argument, TBH.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Dodgeball
i need a new pc

[Manxman in exile]

2 hours ago, Man in the middle said:

 

I would be very wary of adopting the strategy of guessing what insurers mean. The question is usually quite clear, unambiguous and without provisos. I think the decision whether any cancellation influences a new insurer's decisions rests with the new insurer not the old one. If you have been asked if you have ever had a policy cancelled and you have I suggest it is declared. The potential consequences of not doing so if you have a very expensive accident are too horrendous to contemplate.

 

I agree that it's important to get the right answer. I would want to do some more research around whether this sort of cancellation in these circumstances needs to be disclosed.

[Peterbard]

So anyway do we know what the outcome was here?