should people use debt management companies...discussion thread

[Peterbard]

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/419170-rooftops-mortgage-co-demanding-ie-for-arrears-repayment-arrangement/?tab=comments#comment-5021847

 

With respect to Ellen in the above 

 

This is what I would do.

 

Comply at all costs with your mortgage company, they are A priority debt and must be paid before you even think about credit cards.

Then I would ring a DMP , that is the free variety Payplan for instance.

 

Tell them you are struggling and ask for a date to make a income and outcome repayment plan they will do this over the phone. Ask the for a refference number.

 

Phone your creditors and tell  them you have contacted a DMP the will then give you a months grace to create your report quote your ref. Tell your mortgage what you have done and ask them to arrange the amount they want, before the other debts are payed. Negotiate

 

Dont OVER COMMIT YOURSELF

 

Dont forget your mortgage is a priority debt and must be paid in full and on time. So make sure your I and e covers an amount not only pay ongoing, but repay any arrears.

 

This will give you breathing space.

 

Any problems can be sorted later, at your own pace.

[dx100uk]

its not a good idea to ever phone any creditors .

nor IMHO at this stage engage third party interlopers.

 

 

 

[Peterbard]

Were talking about a mortgage here DX. Someone's home ?

 

Whatever anyone says, and as unpleasant as it may be to admit, this money is owed. The mortgage company will not back off, the OP needs to separate this from the trivial (by comparison) credit card debt,

 

I have to say also, there is nothing wrong with giving an I and .E You can organise your own debts and income, generally they will be compelled to accept. Puts you back in charge.

[dx100uk]

don't ever ring

they lie

 

[Peterbard]

Meanwhile the OP is going oujt of his head with worry. WE can look at all that later. When he doesn't have to be afraid to open the post anymore.

 

Anyway as they say opinions vary. I am happy to leave it there. Unless summoned by the OP

 

DX. The advice in post two was to write to them. Third party interlopers, really.

Yes I will do that thread.

 

[dx100uk]

you twice say phone xxx 

 

rooftop have several times now been reprimanded by the relevant authorities upon their treatment and unlawful fees against mortgage debtors

one case being a debt of a couple £100's ending up at +£8k due to all their unlawful fees

 

they were blocked many years ago from further and future lending and only now make any money by buying mortgages of people in arrears from other subprime lenders and racking up £1000's in unlawful charges against mugs that know no different and blindly cough up or lose their homes without fighting back properly and lawfully.

 

no DMP provider will ever help with the above issue and blindly advise sheep that goto them to pay because they get backhanders from these lenders to stay in business.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Peterbard]

6 minutes ago, dx100uk said:

you twice say phone xxx 

 

rooftop have several times now been reprimanded by the relevant authorities upon their treatment and unlawful fees against mortgage debtors

one case being a debt of a couple £100's ending up at +£8k due to all their unlawful fees

 

they were blocked many years ago from further and future lending and only now make any money by buying mortgages of people in arrears from other subprime lenders and racking up £1000's in unlawful charges against mugs that know no different and blindly cough up or lose their homes without fighting back properly and lawfully.

 

no DMP provider will ever help with the above issue and blindly advise sheep that goto them to pay because they get backhanders from these lenders to stay in business.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes I also said, that this is what I would do. It seems to make sense if you want the issue resolving quickly. I they lie, they lie, so what. They need to know the matter is being addressed. There are arears here Dx, no one is questioning this, and even if they were, it is best challenged when your back isn't against the wall.

 

Yes I knows what sub prime lenders do, irrelevant at this point.

 

I sometimes think I write in a different language. The purpose of the DMP is to temporarily get Vanquis off the OPs back while the main issue is sorted.

 

Not to say that there are other financial issues they can deal with., and the do help thousands every day, no matter what you say.

 

Sometimes you know Dx. people get into debt, and its their own fault. I know shocking isn't it, not everyone wants to start a war. Mostly they just want to get back to normal life.

 

They dont get" backhanders, honestly, so what if they did, its not coming from you nor is it coming from the debtor. Sometimes people on here are advised to cut off their noses to spite their face.

Rant over.

[Peterbard]

Oh and no one Isgoing blindly  ejatebrt that means, that Is just ignorance.been dealing with dmps a very long time. Cab use them in fact all the legitimate advisors do. They help a lot of people out of some very bad situations

 Not to say it is always the way to go of course. Plans are not set in stone you understand,   either party can just walk away if they are not happy.

 

As I said  this is not ten years ago, firms are being successfully regulated these days  or closed down even. No need for half understood legal challenges on the most part.

[Peterbard]

7 hours ago, Dodgeball said:

 

 

With respect to Ellen above 

 

This is what I would do.

 

Comply at all costs with your mortgage company, they are A priority debt and must be paid before you even think about credit cards.

Then I would ring a DMP , that is the free variety Payplan for instance.

 

Tell them you are struggling and ask for a date to make a income and outcome repayment plan they will do this over the phone. Ask the for a refference number.

 

Phone your creditors and tell  them you have contacted a DMP the will then give you a months grace to create your report quote your ref. Tell your mortgage what you have done and ask them to arrange the amount they want, before the other debts are payed. Negotiate

 

Dont OVER COMMIT YOURSELF

 

Dont forget your mortgage is a priority debt and must be paid in full and on time. So make sure your I and e covers an amount not only pay ongoing, but repay any arrears.

 

This will give you breathing space.

 

Any problems can be sorted later, at your own pace.

This was meant for the OP please replace it 

 

[dx100uk]

its a bit like fox hunting..a whole financial industry over several generations grew from out of needless cruel sport and eventually was deal with.

 

debt is the same.

 

in this case there are two major players...

 

Debt collection agencies

Debt management companies.

 

neither are necessary but have again been allowed to grow over several generations...

 

the simplest way to deal with both is for everyone to stop paying them and both industries will collapse overnight.

 

there is no need for either of them to exist, they financially support each others existence in an ever increasing circle.

 

most threads in this very same forum portray the sad results of blindly paying both.

[Peterbard]

Hi

I know we disagree here, and no doubt you do some good work

 

However, your repeated use of the phrase, "Blindly Pay" Is with respect a misnomer.

 

People get into trouble by blindly not paying, by not keeping track, by not being in touch with creditors, the advice industry refer to it as, keeping ones head in the sand.

 

There are people who have been fighting creditors for years, that is there own creditors. Is it worth it?

Obviously to some, it is.

 

Many think it is Hypocrisy on my part, after all I wrote one of the first guides to unenforceability, based on Wilson etc.

 

But no, in those days creditors were ripping people off all over the place. Hire purchase dealers in particular were giving themselves £500 bonuses on every sale, unbeknown to the purchaser, no one quite knew how they did it, at the time .

 

This among others is a reason I got into the subject. It wasn't to avoid paying owed debts.

 

Same when I started the thread re bailiff powers to break into homes. 

 

I have never agreed to none payment, although I am all for holding people to account when they try to diddle us. Or for being unsympathetic to those who through no fault of their own fall into debt.

[dx100uk]

it's not a matter of disagreement, neither one of if any good work or not or any guides produced during a relevant period or not, were done.

it's a matter of addressing, or more correctly, how the industry have addressed debt and it's growth that's the issue.

historically, nothing has changed and it's this realisation that today's debtors are facing.

 

The way that DCA's operate and the way DMP providers operate, since both became prevalent in the 1970's, is the same today as it was then, they both solely exist to make money out of debt and thus support each others existance, everyone should stop paying both.... fullstop.

 

The regulation industry has tried various methods to curtail their operations but to date have never done anything to 'actually' help a debtor by ridding us of both.

 

I don't view the comment of blindly not paying, the same as blindly paying.

 

head in sand is probably the best thing debtors can do and i don't regard that as a blindly not paying attitude, at this stage they know no different.

It at least results in the debt getting defaulted at the earliest possible point and that is perhaps the best thing to happen long-term for any debtor.

 

Entering into any debt management plan via any DMP provider [as apposed to operating one yourself] the debtor is encouraged by their 'plan' to blindly pay 'anyone' the DMP includes. As the debtor assumes their advice must be correct the debtor is now forever blinded thinking their debt problems will eventually be resolved. 

 

Many years down the timeline things change,

 

- be it through self realisation that hey i've been paying the DMC for 10yrs now how come i'm still paying??

 

Or by getting a claimform from a debt collector thats bought an old debt from the original creditor they agreed to pay through the original DMP, 

or they go for a mortgage and find a CCJ.

 

Ah realisation..ofcourse the DMC deals with all this stress for me.

i agreed for them to deal with the letters and calls..that's was why i signed up with them in the 1st place. i just couldn't cope.

 

congratulations you blindly agreed to run the SB date to infinity, left yourself wide open and never once were told to question the enforceability of any debt.

 

nice DMP provider,

nice DCA CEO ,

now both living in their multi million pound mansions using my money...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Peterbard]

If  someone is cheating#t is different, but even then you dont ignore them, you go after them.

 

I think you are a little out of date here. You chose who is on your DMP these days, or no one from the DMP is going to interrogate you about who your put in, put it that way.

 

I can tell you, hand on heart, that the two major free suppliers are mostly well meaning people who just want to help. Yes you get the odd berk, but that's human nature, just ask for another agent, they dont last long.

 

Sure they are supported in part by creditors money, but so what?

it does not come from the debtor, and it is more about seeking brownie points than anything else,  if you were to see the figures you would agree, I am sure.

 

Look at this logically and try and suppress you previous feelings.

A few weeks ago, A DMP Pay plan Helped me to negotiate a repayment plan where a debtor owed nearly £25000 , for a total repayment of £12 A month. now she was in her late sixties, would you ask her to ignore phone calls, knocks on the door, for god knows how long? The creditors will never get their money, council dwelling, no savings,

 

It comes down to two choices 

 

1 Try and ignore the debt .Negative-constant worry(for most people) afraid to answer the phone, etc or 

 

2) Start a DMP where you have none of that, the only downside I can see is the Statute Barr issue. Which when looking forward to six years having to dodge DCAs for fear of acknowledgement, to me, doesn't bear comparison.

 

Now there are those, I admit where dodging payment is a way of life, I have met some where the practice has been the norm for several generations, but not many, and mostly on the fora. 

 

If a debt was originally on a DMP, why did they stop? Change of circumstance?. 

But, it is still owed, just because several years have passed, it makes no difference, except the debtor has the same choices they had before, that's all. Would you expect a discount?

 

Anyway, at the time, even you may have agreed it was the best option, we do what we can as the circumstances demand, at the time.

 

 If there are problems with an agreement. then by all means, but hiding behind the sofa every time the phone rings, isn't going do that either.

 

I mean, people do debt diary's for gods sake, years and years, pages and pages, recording every phone call, every letter.

like A hobby. Well, they are welcome to it.

 

As I have said before, I was quite instrumental in the unenforceability nuts and bolts, as documented on here. but in those days creditors were taking the proverbial, agreements were crooked.

What we seem to be doing these days is taking that protection we fought for. And using it avoid our genuine debt.

 

If someone is being conned, or someone has a practice where he deals improperly to our detriment, I will be there, as the song goes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by Dodgeball

[Peterbard]

HI dx. 

 

This from your post:

 

"head in sand is probably the best thing debtors can do and i don't regard that as a blindly not paying attitude, at this stage they know no different.

It at least results in the debt getting defaulted at the earliest possible point and that is perhaps the best thing to happen long-term for any debtor."

 

Now hang on, I am SURE you dont meam this, and I am sure this site does not condone it . If one of the senior admin disagrees please let me know.

 

Your continued use of the phrase," blindly pay" is disturbing also. Are you saying the debtor should not pay, even if they can afford too.  The payment is for money already borrowed, you understand. Morally and legally it is due to the creditor. If the Debtor can afford to pay of course.

 

If the debtor cannot pay, creditors are now legally obliged to give the debtor a great deal of latitude, and bend over backwards to show "forbearance". Why would you want a certain default on your credit file, just for the expense of a phone call.

 

It is true that some people find it difficult to discuss their debts, but these are the very people who you are asking to stand up in court. 

[London1971]

"head in sand is probably the best thing debtors can do and i don't regard that as a blindly not paying attitude, at this stage they know no different.

It at least results in the debt getting defaulted at the earliest possible point and that is perhaps the best thing to happen long-term for any debtor."

 

Totally the best advice for non secured debt, I feel qualified to say this as it's the path I've taken.  I'm now out at the other end of the tunnel and a whole lot better off than if I'd have signed up to some DMP plan that had kept the Statute Barred clock ticking for the rest of my life.

 

Terms such as statute barred should be made clear to anybody before entering into any DMP, IVA etc. I struggle to understand why there is no regulation of 'advisors' who push people into these plans.

 

 

[AndyOrch]

Statute Barred is one of the industry's best kept secret 

[Peterbard]

I suppose the interim 6 years of no credit and continued pressure means nothing to you? Now you recommend this, I hope everyone you advise is so lucky.

 

You seem very happy with your attitude, and you say you are currently out of debt. Why bother.

 

This seems like the foolproof plan, so what if you o3e, why not just take all the credit you can. After all when they come knocking you can just ignore them

Edited November 27, 2019 by Dodgeball

[Peterbard]

Andy, so you approve of DX plan and recommend people ignore their debts.?

[London1971]

10 minutes ago, Dodgeball said:

I suppose the interim 6 years of no credit and continued pressure means nothing to you? Now you recommend this, I hope everyone you advise is so lucky.

 

You seem very happy with your attitude, and you say you are currently out of debt. Why bother.

 

This seems like the foolproof plan, so what if you o3e, why not just take all the credit you can. After all when they come knocking you can just ignore them

 

Not exactly, and I understand your point of view.

 

My 6 years of no Credit would have been the same whatever I did. My priorities during this period was to pay my rent and feed my kids, no way could I have paid my debts off.

 

As for taking lots of credit now? No. I have a mortgage, no way will I put that in peril. I drive a 15 year old car that cost a week's wages, and a small limit Credit card for work expenses.

 

Perhaps you could say I learnt my lesson,

 

But facts remain, not 'blindly paying' got me to my current situation a lot quicker and less painfully than chucking money willy nilly at the likes of Lowell and Capquest.

[Peterbard]

"My 6 years of no Credit would have been the same whatever I did. My priorities during this period was to pay my rent and feed my kids, no way could I have paid my debts off. "

 

How do you know

 

The priorities you mention would be preserved under a plan of course, they are not effected unless you dine on caviar. They are about apportioning disposable income.

 

If you are on a plan, no default can be recorded, and any arrangement comes off after six years, whats the difference. The creditor can still enforce within that time, and if he doesn't, he is not likely to. Especially if is aware of your circumstances

 

Why do you think there is no way out of debt, there is, just not this way.

 

I started , or was one of the ones who started, the unenforceability thing way back, I can tell you the work we did then, had nothing to do with avoiding debts, It was about injustices caused by gaps in the law which should have kept rogue creditors at bay.

 

Bank Charges PPI Bailiffs using accessive force, all kinds of injustices. It saddens me greatly, to see one of its admin saying members shoud avoid paying rightful debts,

 

Looking at the bigger picture, why should any of us pay what we owe, we can just ignore our debts and all will be well, it seems to me that is what is being said

 

 

 

 

 

[Peterbard]

An interesting thing, this idea of blindly paying an agreed contract.

 

Perhaps we are all blindly paying, think about it. All those repayments we have made over the years.

 

Perhaps there was something in their makeup which made them so we were not legally required to pay?

 

Perhaps all the money we have ever repaid on every agreement we ever had, was just blindly paid.

and

Perhaps every promise we lived up to, and honoured, on every agreement we signed or made, was just  the result of our naiveté 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2019 by Dodgeball

[AndyOrch]

Quote

It saddens me greatly, to see one of its admin saying members shoud avoid paying rightful debts,

 

Can you point to that Admin of the Forum which stated that ?

[dx100uk]

On 26/11/2019 at 23:09, Dodgeball said:

Look at this logically and try and suppress you previous feelings.

A few weeks ago, A DMP Pay plan Helped me to negotiate a repayment plan where a debtor owed nearly £25000 , for a total repayment of £12 A month. now she was in her late sixties, would you ask her to ignore phone calls, knocks on the door, for god knows how long? The creditors will never get their money, council dwelling, no savings,

 

 

ouch. this is seriously quite disturbing , I never put you down as being someone sooo dca/dmp industry mindset complicit. this explains your comments throughout this thread.

 

even with the scant details above..

 

the person is of pensionable age with a very limited income.

the £25k debt sum will be of multiple historic origin and most probably DCA owned.

with no property redemption debt repayment option that so many of this age group morally get sc@mmed into available because they are a council tenant - the debt cannot be of recent takeout.

 

in this situation i would advise a relative to take power of attorney or put myself up as a mailing address and either can then deal with the 'harassment' and deforestation whilst operating their self administered dmp.

no payment would be made to anyone until each debt was proven legally due and enforceable.

 

i do not subscribe to the little old lady can't cope with things excuse to use a DMP provider ever!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[London1971]

15 hours ago, Dodgeball said:

"My 6 years of no Credit would have been the same whatever I did. My priorities during this period was to pay my rent and feed my kids, no way could I have paid my debts off. "

 

How do you know

 

The priorities you mention would be preserved under a plan of course, they are not effected unless you dine on caviar. They are about apportioning disposable income.

 

If you are on a plan, no default can be recorded, and any arrangement comes off after six years, whats the difference. The creditor can still enforce within that time, and if he doesn't, he is not likely to. Especially if is aware of your circumstances

 

Why do you think there is no way out of debt, there is, just not this way.

 

I started , or was one of the ones who started, the unenforceability thing way back, I can tell you the work we did then, had nothing to do with avoiding debts, It was about injustices caused by gaps in the law which should have kept rogue creditors at bay.

 

Bank Charges PPI Bailiffs using accessive force, all kinds of injustices. It saddens me greatly, to see one of its admin saying members shoud avoid paying rightful debts,

 

Looking at the bigger picture, why should any of us pay what we owe, we can just ignore our debts and all will be well, it seems to me that is what is being said

 

 

 

 

 

 

Very few debtors have any idea that they have any rights

 

You have a DCA, DMP industry happily filling that vacuum by pretending to be bailiffs, making unlawful demands, pretending to vulnerable people that they have the same powers as a Court or a VAT inspector.  

In some cases hounding people who can't pay their rent, might be mentally ill or are elderly on infirm. Making them think that they have to hand money over with menaces almost like a playground bully.

 

You are defending the likes of Lowell and Capquest, who brought that debt for maybe 5 pence on the pound, and are looking to make the 95 pence back with zero concern for anybody's welfare on the receiving end, despite that 9 times out of 10 it's completely unenforceable.

 

In my opinion, DCA's should be legally obliged to send a large A4 leaflet with each correspondence or phonecall, explaining

 

1. Statute Barred Regulations (how long they have left)

2. How much they brought the debt for

3. How much is made up of fees

4. The correct way to appeal, send an SAR etc

5. Explain their rights under GDPR.

 

Instead of this debtors get lies and intimidation from a totally unregulated industry. You should be ashamed to be advocating on their behalf.

 

 

 

 

[Peterbard]

ndy you said

You have a DCA, DMP industry happily filling that vacuum by pretending to be bailiffs, 

 

Yes andy, I see this all the time. Jesus

 

DX

n this situation i would advise a relative to take power of attorney or put myself up as a mailing address and either can then deal with the 'harassment' and deforestation whilst operating their self administered dmp.

no payment would be made to anyone until each debt was proven legally due and enforceable.

 

Come on DX, she would have passed, real world if possible.

 

Been watching colditz, come on own up.

 

Just passing through.

 

Keep those hands over your eyes boys :0