PCM PCN - Keeper Liability notice - no Windscreen pcn nor NTK - esso studley Grange W7

[YMe?]

Hi

 

Just stumbled across your super helpful website and am hoping you can provide me with some much needed assistance!

 

As the title suggests we received a Keeper Liability Notice demanding we pay £100 penalty charge notice and it also suggests that 28 days have now passed since the NTK was sent out. 

To clarify this is the only correspondence we have had. 

There was no ticket on the windscreen, maybe because the vehicle was occupied!

There was no NTK ever received.  

 

The car was parked on one side of a petrol station forecourt.

There were no visible signs where the vehicle was parked only the usual big petrol station sign showing the prices etc even that had scaffolding along the whole wall in front of it.  

 

There were no photos attached to the Keeper Liability but it stated these could be viewed online. 

Upon viewing the photos which were clearly taken by a manual phone camera it is clear to see that where the vehicle is parked there is scaffolding along the whole of that wall.  Having had a look a sign appearing to look like PCM's is sneakily hidden side facing behind the scaffolding.  Its hidden, side facing and not at eye level! 

 

We did not see the sign so no contract was formed. 

The contravention they are alleging is Parking in an area reserved for patrons whilst on the premises only. 

 

They have given us 14 day to pay which I think lapses on Wednesday 20th. 

We would really appreciate some advice as to what we do next.

 

Thanking you in advance.

 

 

[BankFodder]

I would send them a single letter telling them that you deny any liability and that they will have to establish who the driver was, for what purposes the vehicle was there, and that the signage was adequate.

Tell them that they will have to do this in court because you won't be paying without a court order. Tell them that you look forward to seeing them in court.

Keep us updated if you hear anything more from them – which you may well do.

It's important to send them at least a single letter so that they realise that you will be defending rather than leading them to believe that you won't respond to anything and that they will obtain a default judgement.

Hang on for a day or so though to see if anyone else visits this thread to give some better advice.

[YMe?]

Hi BankFodder

 

Many thanks for the swift response.

 

Forgot to mention, went back to take photos and guess what?

That sign is no where to be seen on the scaffolding?!

 

The photo they have sent of their sign is on a picketed fence which is no where near where the car was parked.

 

There are no photos of the vehicle from the front either, because they new it was occupied. 

[dx100uk]

please complete this:

 

just one point

it is not a penalty charge notice

its a speculative invoice

 

for the minute I would hold back from any return correspondence.

[brassnecked]

Take pictures of what it is now, and get copies from the website before they "lose" them., and do what is suggested on the post by DX that was posted as I was typing this.

 

[YMe?]

Hi dx100uk

 

Completed the following as requested: - 

 

 

1 The date of infringement?27/09/2019

 

2 Have you yet appealed to the parking company yet? [Y/N?]No

if you have then please post up whatever you sent and how you sent it and the date you sent it,

suitably redacted. [as a PDF- follow the upload guide]

 

has there been a response?

please post it up as well, suitably redacted. [as a PDF- follow the upload guide]

 

If you haven't appealed yet - ,.........DONT ! seek advice on your topic

 

have you received a Notice To Keeper? (NTK) [must be received by you between 29-56 days]

what date is on it No NTK Received only received Keeper Liability Notice.  Date of Posting this notice: 01/11/2019 and Date this notice is given: 05/11/2019

 

Did the NTK provide photographic evidence? No NTK and Keeper Liability Notice did not have photographic evidence but mentioned it may be viewed online

 

3 Did the NTK mention Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) [Y/N?] No NTK received but the Keeper Liability Notice mentions Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012

 

4 If you appealed after receiving the NTK,

did the parking company give you any information regarding the further appeals process?

[it is well known that parking companies will reject any appeal whatever the circumstances]

No NTK received but the Keeper Liability Notice states 'representations against the parking notice this can be done by writing to representations team online or by post.  Representations must reach us by no later than the last day of the period of 14 days beginning with the day after the date on which this notice is given. Representations after this date will not be considered.'

 

5 Who is the parking company? Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd

 

6. where exactly [Carpark name and town] did you park? Esso Studley Grange W7

 

Also is it correct that if they are a firm which alleges 'keeper liability' under the POFA 2012 then a postal PCN must arrive by day 14 if there was no windscreen ticket. This clearly did not happen!

[dx100uk]

operator pix so will be 29-56 days.

 

I doubt the person that took the pix are even registered under DPA/GDPR anyway.

 

can you scan to PDF the only letter you have please?

and pop up on the website and grab the pictures

them dump that lot in one multipage PDf

and post here?

 

read upload it tells/shows you how too do it

 

dx

 

[BankFodder]

2 hours ago, dx100uk said:

I doubt the person that took the pix are even registered under DPA/ GDPR anyway.

 

 

 

 

Very good point.  Worth verifying and then exploiting.  I think that I would require that person to attend court and to give direct evidence

[YMe?]

Excellent point had not thought of that. 

Apologies for delay in uploading letter. 

I am new to this so working out how to upload the necessary as stated above.

  I will hopefully figure it out. 

Was trying to do it on my phone but may have to resort to laptop.

[brassnecked]

If it is a third party, taking the pictures for the PPC, but not employed directly by them say a checkout operator at the filling station, there will be GDPR issues.

[YMe?]

Apologies for the delay, please find attached letter (front & back) as requested.  Thank you.

 

 

Have I submitted these correctly? Thanks

KeeperLiability.pdf

[dx100uk]

https://cse.google.com/cse?cx=partner-pub-8889411648654839:3134625398&q=forecourt PCN&oq=forecourt PCN&gs_l=partner-generic.3...53110.57357.0.57805.13.13.0.0.0.0.77.910.13.13.0.gsnos%2Cn%3D13...0.4392j1719846j14...1.34.partner-generic..13.0.0.Z7JkuGyiQ18

[YMe?]

pix

pixs.pdf

 

Will be drafting up a letter hopefully today and will post updraft before sending. 

 

Can I mention that no windscreen ticket  or NTK in the post was ever received?

 

Also should the reply to them be done via their online form or sent by first class mail and certificate of posting requested? 

 

If done online does an e-mail address have to be provided? Many thanks

[dx100uk]

you don't need to send any letters.

 

and you NEVER use or give an email to these fleecers anyway.

 

 

[YMe?]

Thank you I will do it online.

 

Please confirm if the following draft will suffice: - 

 

Re: PCN Number:

I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a formal complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner and to my MP.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. It is for you to establish the reasons the vehicle was there and that your signage was adequate. Since your PCN is a vague template, I require ALL photos taken and an explanation of the allegation and your evidence, i.e.:

If the allegation concerns a PDT machine, the data supplied in response to this appeal must include the record of payments made - showing partial VRNs - and an explanation of the reason for the PCN, because your Notice does not explain it.

If the allegation involves an alleged overstay of minutes, your evidence must include the actual grace period agreed by the landowner. If you fail to evidence the actual grace period that applies at this site or suggest that only one period applies, this will be disregarded as an attempt to mislead. In the absence of evidence, it will be reasonably taken to be a minimum of twenty minutes (ten on arrival and ten after parking time) in accordance with the official BPA article by Kelvin Reynolds about 'observation periods' on arrival being additional and separate to a 'grace period' at the end.

In all cases, you must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date.

Formal note:

Should you later pursue this charge by way of litigation, note that service of any legal documents by email is expressly disallowed and you are not entitled to assume that the data in this dispute/appeal remains the current address for service in the future.

Yours faithfully,

Should I confirm that no windscreen ticket nor NTK was ever received by the Keeper?

[dx100uk]

you don't need to send any thing by any method.

 

dx

[YMe?]

On 16/11/2019 at 12:12, BankFodder said:

I would send them a single letter telling them that you deny any liability and that they will have to establish who the driver was, for what purposes the vehicle was there, and that the signage was adequate.

Tell them that they will have to do this in court because you won't be paying without a court order. Tell them that you look forward to seeing them in court.

Keep us updated if you hear anything more from them – which you may well do.

It's important to send them at least a single letter so that they realise that you will be defending rather than leading them to believe that you won't respond to anything and that they will obtain a default judgement.

Hang on for a day or so though to see if anyone else visits this thread to give some better advice.

Sorry I don't understand am confused now! 

[BankFodder]

Well I don't understand what you don't understand – so you had better go first

[YMe?]

7 minutes ago, BankFodder said:

Well I don't understand what you don't understand – so you had better go first

Sorry BankFodder

 

I thought a reply was needed to be sent to them {as per the above draf)t in response to the Keeper Liability denying any liability. Please correct me if I have misunderstood.  Thanks

[dx100uk]

BF will be the 1st to say he is not upto speed on Private parking companies and speculative invoices for supposedly breaking some mythical parking contract you agree too by stopping on a forecourt with no permissible reason.

 

go read the threads I linked to in post 12

 

dx

 

[BankFodder]

Where I think you should be sending them a letter. Maybe I'm at odds with my colleague @dx100uk

Just now, dx100uk said:

BF will be the 1st to say he is not upto speed on Private parking companies and speculative invoices for supposedly breaking some mythical parking contract you agree too by stopping on a forecourt with no permissible reason.

 

go read the threads I linked to in post 12

 

dx

 

 

This is true – although maybe not the 1st to say – it may be others are saying it before me!

However, my own personal approach is to make contact so that they know that you are not avoiding the issue and that they know there may be trouble in store. After that – it doesn't matter too much what you say as long as you send them some kind of indication that they will be challenged if they move on it

[YMe?]

Will send something along the lines of the above draft and await a reply and take it from there.

 

Is it worth mentioning no windscreen ticket or NTK was received prior to the Keeper Liability or is there no point?

[dx100uk]

please do not

it will remove your protection under pofa2012

 

go read those threads

learn for yourself why not take our word for doing or not something.

 

 

 

[brassnecked]

Ifyou identify yourself as the driver, you lose POFA protection as stated by DX, and cause issues if they try court, they can't sue the keeper for added unicorn food tax of £60 they will add to any claim, plus they can't sue assuming keeper is driving if you id driver, the cases they use are flawed as inapplicable viz Elliott V loake,  (criminal so inapplicable)and CPS v AJH films. employer/employee.

[Mrs O'Frog]

Plus that appeal "predatory conduct... client landowner.... my MP" yadda yadda, is just soooo old and tired (copied and pasted from MSE?) that they'll just laugh and assume you haven't got a clue since you've only copied your homework. You're just inviting them on.