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    • The Notice to Hirer does not comply with the protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule  4 . This is before I ask if Europarks have sent you a copy of the PCN they sent to Arval along with a copy of the hire agreement et. if they haven't done that either you are totally in the clear and have nothing to worry about and nothing to pay. The PCN they have sent you is supposed to be paid by you according to the Act within 21 days. The chucklebuts have stated 28 days which is the time that motorists have to pay. Such a basic and simple thing . The Act came out in 2012 and still they cannot get it right which is very good news for you. Sadly there is no point in telling them- they won't accept it because they lose their chance to make any money out of you. they are hoping that by writing to you demanding money plus sending in their  unregulated debt collectors and sixth rate solicitors that you might be so frightened as to pay them money so that you can sleep at night. Don't be surprised if some of their letters are done in coloured crayons-that's the sort of  level of people you will be dealing with. Makes great bedding for the rabbits though. Euro tend not to be that litigious but while you can safely ignore the debt collectors just keep an eye out for a possible Letter of Claim. They are pretty rare but musn't be ignored. Let us know so that you can send a suitably snotty letter to them showing that you are not afraid of them and are happy to go to Court as you like winning.  
    • They did reply to my defence stating it would fail and enclosed copies of NOA, DN Term letter and account statements. All copies of T&C's that could be reconstructions and the IP address on there resolves to the town where MBNA offices are, not my location
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    • My defence was standard no paperwork:   1.The Defendant contends that the particulars of claim are generic in nature. The Defendant accordingly sets out its case below and relies on CPR r 16.5 (3) in relation to any particular allegation to which a specific response has not been made. 2. Paragraph 1 is noted. The Defendant has had a contractual relationship with MBNA Limited in the past. The Defendant does not recognise the reference number provided by the claimant within its particulars and has sought verification from the claimant who is yet to comply with requests for further information. 3. Paragraph 2 is denied. The Defendant maintains that a default notice was never received. The Claimant is put to strict proof to that a default notice was issued by MBNA Limited and received by the Defendant. 4. Paragraph 3 is denied. The Defendant is unaware of any legal assignment or Notice of Assignment allegedly served from either the Claimant or MBNA Limited. 5. On the 02/01/2023 the Defendant requested information pertaining to this claim by way of a CCA 1974 Section 78 request. The claimant is yet to respond to this request. On the 19/05/2023 a CPR 31.14 request was sent to Kearns who is yet to respond. To date, 02/06/2023, no documentation has been received. The claimant remains in default of my section 78 request. 6. It is therefore denied with regards to the Defendant owing any monies to the Claimant, the Claimant has failed to provide any evidence of proof of assignment being sent/ agreement/ balance/ breach or termination requested by CPR 31.14, therefore the Claimant is put to strict proof to: (a) show how the Defendant entered into an agreement; and (b) show and evidence the nature of breach and service of a default notice pursuant to Section 87(1) CCA1974 (c) show how the claimant has reached the amount claimed for; and (d) show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim; 7. As per Civil Procedure Rule 16.5(4), it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed. 8. On the alternative, as the Claimant is an assignee of a debt, it is denied that the Claimant has the right to lay a claim due to contraventions of Section 136 of the Law of Property Act and Section 82A of the consumer credit Act 1974. 9. By reasons of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief.
    • Monika the first four pages of the Private parking section have at least 12 of our members who have also been caught out on this scam site. That's around one quarter of all our current complaints. Usually we might expect two current complaints for the same park within 4 pages.  So you are in good company and have done well in appealing to McDonalds in an effort to resolve the matter without having  paid such a bunch of rogues. Most people blindly pay up. Met . Starbucks and McDonalds  are well aware of the situation and seem unwilling to make it easier for motorists to avoid getting caught. For instance, instead of photographing you, if they were honest and wanted you  to continue using their services again, they would have said "Excuse me but if you are going to go to Mc donalds from here, it will cost you £100." But no they kett quiet and are now pursuing you for probably a lot more than £100 now. They also know thst  they cannot charge anything over the amount stated on the car park signs. Their claims for £160 or £170 are unlawful yet so many pay that to avoid going to Court. When the truth is that Met are unlikely to take them to Court since they know they will lose. The PCNs are issued on airport land which is covered by Byelaws so only the driver can be pursued, not the keeper. But they keep writing to you as they do not know who was driving unless you gave it away when you appealed. Even if they know you were driving they should still lose in Court for several reasons. The reason we ask you to fill out our questionnaire is to help you if MET do decide to take you to Court in the end. Each member who visited the park may well have different experiences while there which can help when filling out a Witness statement [we will help you with that if it comes to it.] if you have thrown away the original PCN  and other paperwork you obviously haven't got a jerbil or a guinea pig as their paper makes great litter boxes for them.🙂 You can send an SAR to them to get all the information Met have on you to date. Though if you have been to several sites already, you may have done that by now. In the meantime, you will be being bombarded by illiterate debt collectors and sixth rate solicitors all threatening you with ever increasing amounts as well as being hung drawn and quartered. Their letters can all be safely ignored. On the odd chance that you may get a Letter of Claim from them just come back to us and we will get you to send a snotty letter back to them so that they know you are not happy, don't care a fig for their threats and will see them off in Court if they finally have the guts to carry on. If you do have the original PCN could you please post it up, carefully removing your name. address and car registration number but including dates and times. If not just click on the SAR to take you to the form to send to Met.
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PCM PCN - Keeper Liability notice - no Windscreen pcn nor NTK - esso studley Grange W7


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Hi

 

Just stumbled across your super helpful website and am hoping you can provide me with some much needed assistance!

 

As the title suggests we received a Keeper Liability Notice demanding we pay £100 penalty charge notice and it also suggests that 28 days have now passed since the NTK was sent out. 

To clarify this is the only correspondence we have had. 

There was no ticket on the windscreen, maybe because the vehicle was occupied!

There was no NTK ever received.  

 

The car was parked on one side of a petrol station forecourt.

There were no visible signs where the vehicle was parked only the usual big petrol station sign showing the prices etc even that had scaffolding along the whole wall in front of it.  

 

There were no photos attached to the Keeper Liability but it stated these could be viewed online. 

Upon viewing the photos which were clearly taken by a manual phone camera it is clear to see that where the vehicle is parked there is scaffolding along the whole of that wall.  Having had a look a sign appearing to look like PCM's is sneakily hidden side facing behind the scaffolding.  Its hidden, side facing and not at eye level! 

 

We did not see the sign so no contract was formed. 

The contravention they are alleging is Parking in an area reserved for patrons whilst on the premises only. 

 

They have given us 14 day to pay which I think lapses on Wednesday 20th. 

We would really appreciate some advice as to what we do next.

 

Thanking you in advance.

 

 

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I would send them a single letter telling them that you deny any liability and that they will have to establish who the driver was, for what purposes the vehicle was there, and that the signage was adequate.

Tell them that they will have to do this in court because you won't be paying without a court order. Tell them that you look forward to seeing them in court.

Keep us updated if you hear anything more from them – which you may well do.

It's important to send them at least a single letter so that they realise that you will be defending rather than leading them to believe that you won't respond to anything and that they will obtain a default judgement.

Hang on for a day or so though to see if anyone else visits this thread to give some better advice.

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Hi BankFodder

 

Many thanks for the swift response.

 

Forgot to mention, went back to take photos and guess what?

That sign is no where to be seen on the scaffolding?!

 

The photo they have sent of their sign is on a picketed fence which is no where near where the car was parked.

 

There are no photos of the vehicle from the front either, because they new it was occupied. 

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please complete this:

 

just one point

it is not a penalty charge notice

its a speculative invoice

 

for the minute I would hold back from any return correspondence.

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Take pictures of what it is now, and get copies from the website before they "lose" them., and do what is suggested on the post by DX that was posted as I was typing this.

 

We could do with some help from you.

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Hi dx100uk

 

Completed the following as requested: - 

 

 

1 The date of infringement?27/09/2019

 

2 Have you yet appealed to the parking company yet? [Y/N?]No

if you have then please post up whatever you sent and how you sent it and the date you sent it,

suitably redacted. [as a PDF- follow the upload guide]

 

has there been a response?

please post it up as well, suitably redacted. [as a PDF- follow the upload guide]

 

If you haven't appealed yet - ,.........DONT ! seek advice on your topic

 

have you received a Notice To Keeper? (NTK) [must be received by you between 29-56 days]

what date is on it No NTK Received only received Keeper Liability Notice.  Date of Posting this notice: 01/11/2019 and Date this notice is given: 05/11/2019

 

Did the NTK provide photographic evidence? No NTK and Keeper Liability Notice did not have photographic evidence but mentioned it may be viewed online

 

3 Did the NTK mention Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) [Y/N?] No NTK received but the Keeper Liability Notice mentions Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012

 

4 If you appealed after receiving the NTK,

did the parking company give you any information regarding the further appeals process?

[it is well known that parking companies will reject any appeal whatever the circumstances]

No NTK received but the Keeper Liability Notice states 'representations against the parking notice this can be done by writing to representations team online or by post.  Representations must reach us by no later than the last day of the period of 14 days beginning with the day after the date on which this notice is given. Representations after this date will not be considered.'

 

5 Who is the parking company? Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd

 

6. where exactly [Carpark name and town] did you park? Esso Studley Grange W7

 

Also is it correct that if they are a firm which alleges 'keeper liability' under the POFA 2012 then a postal PCN must arrive by day 14 if there was no windscreen ticket. This clearly did not happen!

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operator pix so will be 29-56 days.

 

I doubt the person that took the pix are even registered under DPA/GDPR anyway.

 

can you scan to PDF the only letter you have please?

and pop up on the website and grab the pictures

them dump that lot in one multipage PDf

and post here?

 

read upload it tells/shows you how too do it

 

dx

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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2 hours ago, dx100uk said:

I doubt the person that took the pix are even registered under DPA/ GDPR anyway.

 

 

 

 

Very good point.  Worth verifying and then exploiting.  I think that I would require that person to attend court and to give direct evidence

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Excellent point had not thought of that. 

Apologies for delay in uploading letter. 

I am new to this so working out how to upload the necessary as stated above.

  I will hopefully figure it out. 

Was trying to do it on my phone but may have to resort to laptop.

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If it is a third party, taking the pictures for the PPC, but not employed directly by them say a checkout operator at the filling station, there will be GDPR issues.

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

If you want advice on your thread please PM me a link to your thread

The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

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  • dx100uk changed the title to PCM PCN - Keeper Liability notice - no Windscreen pcn nor NTK - esso studley Grange W7

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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pix

pixs.pdf

 

Will be drafting up a letter hopefully today and will post updraft before sending. 

 

Can I mention that no windscreen ticket  or NTK in the post was ever received?

 

Also should the reply to them be done via their online form or sent by first class mail and certificate of posting requested? 

 

If done online does an e-mail address have to be provided? Many thanks

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you don't need to send any letters.

 

and you NEVER use or give an email to these fleecers anyway.

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Thank you I will do it online.

 

Please confirm if the following draft will suffice: - 

 

Re: PCN Number:



I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a formal complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner and to my MP.


There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. It is for you to establish the reasons the vehicle was there and that your signage was adequate. Since your PCN is a vague template, I require ALL photos taken and an explanation of the allegation and your evidence, i.e.:

If the allegation concerns a PDT machine, the data supplied in response to this appeal must include the record of payments made - showing partial VRNs - and an explanation of the reason for the PCN, because your Notice does not explain it.


If the allegation involves an alleged overstay of minutes, your evidence must include the actual grace period agreed by the landowner. If you fail to evidence the actual grace period that applies at this site or suggest that only one period applies, this will be disregarded as an attempt to mislead. In the absence of evidence, it will be reasonably taken to be a minimum of twenty minutes (ten on arrival and ten after parking time) in accordance with the official BPA article by Kelvin Reynolds about 'observation periods' on arrival being additional and separate to a 'grace period' at the end.


In all cases, you must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date.


Formal note:

Should you later pursue this charge by way of litigation, note that service of any legal documents by email is expressly disallowed and you are not entitled to assume that the data in this dispute/appeal remains the current address for service in the future.


Yours faithfully,

Should I confirm that no windscreen ticket nor NTK was ever received by the Keeper?

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you don't need to send any thing by any method.

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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On 16/11/2019 at 12:12, BankFodder said:

I would send them a single letter telling them that you deny any liability and that they will have to establish who the driver was, for what purposes the vehicle was there, and that the signage was adequate.

Tell them that they will have to do this in court because you won't be paying without a court order. Tell them that you look forward to seeing them in court.

Keep us updated if you hear anything more from them – which you may well do.

It's important to send them at least a single letter so that they realise that you will be defending rather than leading them to believe that you won't respond to anything and that they will obtain a default judgement.

Hang on for a day or so though to see if anyone else visits this thread to give some better advice.

Sorry I don't understand am confused now! 

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Well I don't understand what you don't understand – so you had better go first

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7 minutes ago, BankFodder said:

Well I don't understand what you don't understand – so you had better go first

Sorry BankFodder

 

I thought a reply was needed to be sent to them {as per the above draf)t in response to the Keeper Liability denying any liability. Please correct me if I have misunderstood.  Thanks

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BF will be the 1st to say he is not upto speed on Private parking companies and speculative invoices for supposedly breaking some mythical parking contract you agree too by stopping on a forecourt with no permissible reason.

 

go read the threads I linked to in post 12

 

dx

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Where I think you should be sending them a letter. Maybe I'm at odds with my colleague @dx100uk

Just now, dx100uk said:

BF will be the 1st to say he is not upto speed on Private parking companies and speculative invoices for supposedly breaking some mythical parking contract you agree too by stopping on a forecourt with no permissible reason.

 

go read the threads I linked to in post 12

 

dx

 

 

This is true – although maybe not the 1st to say – it may be others are saying it before me!

However, my own personal approach is to make contact so that they know that you are not avoiding the issue and that they know there may be trouble in store. After that – it doesn't matter too much what you say as long as you send them some kind of indication that they will be challenged if they move on it

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Will send something along the lines of the above draft and await a reply and take it from there.

 

Is it worth mentioning no windscreen ticket or NTK was received prior to the Keeper Liability or is there no point?

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please do not

it will remove your protection under pofa2012

 

go read those threads

learn for yourself why not take our word for doing or not something.

 

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Ifyou identify yourself as the driver, you lose POFA protection as stated by DX, and cause issues if they try court, they can't sue the keeper for added unicorn food tax of £60 they will add to any claim, plus they can't sue assuming keeper is driving if you id driver, the cases they use are flawed as inapplicable viz Elliott V loake,  (criminal so inapplicable)and CPS v AJH films. employer/employee.

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

If you want advice on your thread please PM me a link to your thread

The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

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Plus that appeal "predatory conduct... client landowner.... my MP" yadda yadda, is just soooo old and tired (copied and pasted from MSE?) that they'll just laugh and assume you haven't got a clue since you've only copied your homework. You're just inviting them on.

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