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HP Mum

bank/dca/strangers harrassing relative

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in post#4 dx you say that a processor has to serve the Stat Demand personally to be able to action a bankruptcy petition.

 

I don't understand how a processor can still serve a SD when they have been told directly by the elderly owner they have the wrong address?

 

How can a processor then attempt serving a B petition after being told and clearly having done surveillance and asked neighbours that a completely different person lives at that address? And they know the SD has not been served in person?

 

And how can the processor also state in legal docs that if the person - who they know doesn't live at that address - doesn't receive the B petition that they will apply for a substituted service?

 

Do I need to do anything? 

Is it enough that elderly relative has now contacted the processor/lawyer to point out their errors?

Or there may be an invalid SD in the court system and I need to find out and act accordingly (set aside)

 

 

Edited by HP Mum

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I suspect they are “playing the ‘long game’l

 

a) they expect you to go for a set aside of the SD : if you don’t they get their B petition

 

b) they expect you to go for a set aside, but hope to get your address for service of a valid SD from it. If the address is good enough for you to use for court papers it is good enough to serve to.

 

c) If you go for a SD saying you don’t have an address, they agree to have the set aside heard at a hearing in person. Then then use that to serve you with a valid SD, served in person & in front of the judge hearing your set aside application ......... so they can say “not a shadow of doubt it was served!”

Edited by BazzaS

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But they still haven't served a SD on me. 

 

So - just trying to research expiry

-  I read that there is a 4 month period for creditor to take action before the SD expires.

Is that 4 months from alleged date of service? 

 

Does the incorrectly addressed/posted SD have to be correctly served within the same 4 month period?

 

What if the time for the debtor to respond to the then correctly served SD

- and for the creditor to take action

- then goes beyond the 4 months?   

(ie its already more than 3m since they served at wrong address).

Does the creditor have to issue and serve a new SD when they know where to serve correctly?

 

I also just read:

 

"A creditor must ‘do all that is reasonable to bring the statutory demand to the debtor’s attention and, if practicable in the particular circumstances, serve the demand personally’

 

"The legal test is that a creditor ‘must do everything possible to bring the statutory demand to the Debtor’s attention".

It seems that this creditor failed utterly. 

They had the ability to bring it to my attention

- they chose to do the opposite

- to do everything possible to not let me see the papers!!

 

 Also is there a register that shows if SDs served? 

I checked Gazette so far

 

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Do they have an address for you?

 

if not, how are you expecting them to bring it to your attention? And / or serve it in person??

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They have email and phone - and they could have asked/ emailed me?

 

 The research I have done shows creditor's can use email to serve.   

They never asked me where I moved to.

 

They knew they made me homeless but they were regularly communicating other things by email - so they could have asked.

They didnt. 

No idea how they found the elderly relative.

tbh - I don't have a fixed abode.  

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Expect them to bring up every communication and claim that you’ve been dodging them / not providing them with an address to serve to.......

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They were communicating with lawyers associated to me too

 

They can’t serve a SD on your lawyers, only you.

 

As I said earlier - the lawyer stopped communicating  around the date on the SD they incorrectly served.  And the bank told me the receiver was now handling things and not to deal with them anymore.   The receiver never asked me where I was.  But he did email and I did reply or he did get auto reply.

 

Since I did have email communication with them - I don't think they could say they did everything possible to find me,  All they had to do was ask!  And then we could have discussed the situation. 

 

It almost is the reverse - they did nothing to try find me.  And if a PI is employed to do surveillance then he must have realised only one person - the wrong one - lived at the  wrong address.

 

Does anyone have any info re post #26 and #28 above?

 

The property is being marketed for sale and the receiver is negotiating offers, so there was no reason for me to expect bank/ lawyers to be trying to locate me to serve any papers.   

 

Surely any loss to them has to be proven upon an agreed sale.  It hasn't sold yet,   They may still get a high enough offer to prevent any large debt?  There could then be a different discussion re terms of repayment?   So I was not expecting anyone to be trying to find me!

 

But this is a bit of a digression from what  should I be doing NOW?

Should I send them an SAR? 

If they do intend to serve me correctly this would be useful, yes?

 

I am sure they have added all sorts of unnecessary costs to the debt that could be challenged?

 

Also there is a question over if they even had a valid notice of assignment?  They would have to produce that in the SAR wouldn't they?   This was a real query for me ages ago but it never got pursued legally.

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If they can't serve the papers to you personally, they will use other ways to proceed with your bankruptcy in your absence.  

 

It just means that you won't have had the opportunity to challenge the process and it could therefore make things more difficult for you.

 

I am not quite sure what you hope might happen, if the bankruptcy is delayed a couple of months.  Given the property has not sold in 4 years, it seems unlikely there is going to be a sudden change in fortune.

 

I would suggest that you obtain local advice about your current circumstances  . Many Solicitors offer a free half hour consultation. There are local insolvency advisors.  You need to understand why it may be better to cooperate with the process now, rather than avoid contact, hoping that delay is your friend.


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Thank you UncleB

 

I have only realised what is going on in the last few days. 

So now confronting the situation and trying to work out what I need to do urgently. 

 I get that delay is not my friend.

 

Yes I understand they can proceed in my absence. 

So I need to stop that.   

 

They had the ability to ask me where I was and didn't

- they started a SD/Bk process knowingly behind my back so I wouldn't have the opportunity to discuss/challenge etc.   

The question is what do I do now?

How do I contact them?

 

Do I email the bank and receiver

 - ask for an update on the sale process and at same time attach a SAR on the basis of getting to the bottom of all the costs and finding out about correct assignment of a loan? 

 

Should I take this opp to also say I now know about the SD?     

That it has just been brought to my attention that they have been bizarrely delivering mail to relative without making any attempt to contact me directly by email?

 

Would they now need to serve the SD properly? 

 

And thus I would now have the correct timing to respond - 18 or 21 days ?

 

I am just concerned that they want to by-pass the SD and immediately push ahead with BK petition

- which would seem unfair advantage to them. 

 

 Can they?

 

 

 

 

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Contact the process server or creditor trying to make you bankrupt. Provide them with your contact information.  Get them to write to you, with details of their current proposals of dealing with the situation.

 

In the meantime, try to obtain some local advice about all aspects.

 

The important thing is what actions you can take that will allow you to move on and not have this mess to worry about.


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Thanks

I do not have £s. 

I have to do it all myself. 

 

The situation is more complicated than just me. 

I was the leaseholder.  

 

Separately, the family hold the fh (I can never personally benefit),   

The bank have tried every legal means to get the fh and failed.   

Wasted time, whilst my interest accrued. 

 

The freeholders have their own legal argument with the bank and the bank has limited time to respond/act before they run risk of forfeiture of the lease back to the freeholders...

 

The bigger value is in the lease now. 

But long-term the value will be with the freeholders. 

Raising the funds to pay off my debt is being looked at

- aside from their legal action on poss forfeit.

 

There are discrepancies with the bank's paperwork. 

Dates wrong and signatures missing on important docs.

 

I understand one may question how the situation could change soon after 4y.   

But it seems the market is changing.

Properties of similar value in the locality have remained unsold in 5y

- but agents are now seeing more interest and offers on these properties. 

 

The bank has advised they have offers at a certain level but have been reluctant to accept.

They spent the last year in futile attempt to get the fh. 

 

If they had pursued the offer for the lh 1y ago there would be very little shortfall

- or any shortfall could have been potentially dealt with on some sort of financial agreement?

 

imo they want to pursue bk and get the house so they can take advantage of this poss rise in values.

 

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Your bankruptcy would only get them the leasehold (or portion of the value thereof) and not the freehold, though?

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"" I do not have the £'s"

 

Have you tried to find out what free help you can obtain locally ?  

 

Seems very complicated.


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Bazza - yes correct. They loaned knowing it was lh too.

 

UncleB

- I've only been on the case the last few days.

I have applied to court Triage for free help. 

But they declined til they know more details.

 

Filled in form with details.

Now waiting to hear if yes and a date. 

But suspect I may have to wait weeks? 

 

This is why it's important to get the clock ticking from a proper SD service. 

This is why I ask if they need to go backwards with their process and re-serve the SD properly

- which gives me the 18-21 days

 

Yes it is complicated.

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Do you have a local law centre that could help, HP Mum? If you can't fund a lawyer that could be one of your choices.

 

HB


Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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55 minutes ago, HP Mum said:

Bazza - yes correct. They loaned knowing it was lh too.


Nothing unusual about a LH mortgage, other than:

a) they routinely offer a lower LTV ratio

b) if the value of the lease isn’t increasing, the equity decreases over time, as the term remaining decreases.

 

b) may be of particular import if the remaining term of the lease is of the order of 80 years or less.

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Honeybee - not sure what u mean by law centre?  I emailed local courts free legal centre for free civil Triage help. Will be able to follow up on Mon.

Or do u mean citizens advice?

 

Bazza - it's bit more than 80y.  The value in the fh is long-term and theres v strict covenants preventing any development/ alterations 

 

 

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Thank you Honeybee

I will follow the link and revert

 

Bazza

- I made the comment about them agreeing to loan on lease as bank's very expensive lawyers messed up.

They thought their t&cs would allow them to grab the fh.

They didn't check the small print on legal docs that showed I wasn't the owner.

 

I'm confused on the process

- Does the claimant have to start again and serve the SD correctly?

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The serving of SD's is covered by legislation, which the process servers must follow.  So if service to the person is not possible, they document that alternative ways have been used. 

 

You can only argue about service later, if you are not currently taking part in the process.

 

Can I suggest that you get the insolvency advice and advice about the complex housing issue you have from someone qualified and in possession of all of the necessary documents.  Get that advice now, as that might help you now rather than worry about SD service.


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I'm so lost on how to handle this.

It seems these people are months ahead of me.

And I have no energy or brain power or time or money to do what needs to be done.

 

You say serving SD is covered by legislation.

So if I contact this processor and ask why he wasn't given my email or # to text me and offer him the opportunity to serve me correctly

- would that work? 

 

I don't understand how they can deliberately abuse the system? 

These people have never asked where I am, yet have communicated by email. 

They are clearly trying to expedite a situation behind my back. 

And using intimidating tactics.

It's all a bit too much

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It is the Bank/mortgage company that must have decided that bankruptcy is the way forward, so you need only contact them to advise your current contact details.  But do so in writing by recorded delivery.   This is just in case,  the issue of you not advising of a contact address is ever raised later in any Court process, you can provide evidence that you did inform them.

 

The legislation on serving the SD is  http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/1024/part/10/chapter/1/made

 

 


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Also - the irony is not lost on me: that they are spending all this money on a processor to knowingly waste time at the wrong address and adding it to MY debt. 

One email is all it would have taken to ask me

 

UncleB - I actually do not have a fixed contact address. 

I was made homeless and could/ can not afford to rent anywhere. 

 

 Knowing how hard it is to function in life without an address I have not changed anything

- every business still has the original address and all my mail is on divert to a place where I can collect

- but I do not have a home address to give anyone. 

 

 I have been communicating by email with the bank, lawyer and receiver.  

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unlawful fees for 'whatever' can be reclaimed or removed.


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, the whole DCA industry would collapse overnight.

 

 

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We could do with some help from you.

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 Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

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