my Leasehold/Freehold property and it's issues.

[dx100uk]

what about all the previous letters?

bottom line is there is no-one there to make BK and it cant hurt them anyway

 

[HP Mum]

Yes - but because there is no address there is no way of discerning to which of the previous senders this one should be returned?  Relative could ring the number - but doesn't feel comfortable doing so.

 

So should relative just ignore and if the people do attend just tell them then that they have the wrong address?

 

What will these people do next? 

 

Advertise in local/ national press release mentioning relative's address?

[dx100uk]

no point in returning it nor the other letters.

no need to ring either

no sure where that idea came from.

 

the person is not resident at the property

not the current residents person.

 

the text of the letter is the std SD letter text.

successful BK's get advertised yes, but as he is not resident at that address and it cant harm the address even if whomever the creditor is if they do succeed 

 

the person named is not on the electoral roll for the address anyway so the SD can never happen in its current format.

who are these mick=mouse process servers please?

 

they aren't normally this dumb to be honest as they have to talk reasonable steps to find the debtor 

they appear not too have.

 

[HP Mum]

There's just a man's name and mobile # - no server company name.  It almost looks like a self-made threatogram??

What are reasonable steps?  I suspect these people are hoping relative will say they know where the long-gone person being searched for is now?!

 

I've never come across a SD before.  I did a quick search thru the forum. It seems dca used to use them regularly because there was/is a short time frame to respond before bankruptcy petition being given to court - and it was/is a cheaper route than going thru the bankruptcy court process.   There was an amazing sticky I found

[dx100uk]

then it could well be homemade threat-o-gram

there are numerous unregistered one man band backdoor dca's that pull all kinds of stunts to collect debts

 

I would suspect this nothing to do with any consumer credit debt like card/loan as none of the usual players you've met would ever use these people and never for a last trace of probably 10yrs+ ago as atleast they do abide by the rules.

 

this is going to be for a dodgy backstreet lender loan I bet.

 

 

 

[stu007]

Hi

 

Type the mobile number you have been given into your internet search engine and see what comes up.

[brassnecked]

 

some DCAs use mobile numbers often several, so

use who called me there will be information on whose number if known, and you will see other peoples experiences with it along with opportunity to add your own comments.   https://who-called.co.uk/  

[HP Mum]

it seems to be some kind of investigator #

[dx100uk]

tell us the number

 

dx

 

[HP Mum]

Debt, evicted, homeless.

Property remains unsold, big interest accrued til no equity left.

Bank employed pi to harass elderly parent on assumption 'child' living with parent. Parent advised they're only person at their address.  Pi been questioning neighbours too - with same answer. 

Bank has # and email details. No address.  'Child' staying temp with friends - nfa.  Mail diverts to box - so get post.  Until new perm address, old address remains on files.

Parent has no knowledge of 'child' temp address/es. 

Parent wishes to put a stop to the harassment. No return address on envelopes - so opened last letter.  Advance notice to return certain time to serve "B" petition on 'child' who they know doesn't live there.

How can relative stop them.

It is intimidation.

Aren't there rules on how many times a debt collector can hassle a relative? And isn't it illegal to disclose financial info to relative/ neighbours?

In letter there was a # to call (pi).  Should relative call the # to say go away?  Or does that mean relative is admitting opening mail not for them, and then has knowledge of the potential petition and thus implicated?

Also, if unsold - how can bank issue B petition? 

Confused on best action.

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by HP Mum

[ericsbrother]

a judge made the statement that not opening letters when you know things are wrong is a dereliction of your responsibilites to yourself as well as to the "missing" person.

How rich or poor is relative? They could get solicitor to send a letter to both the bank and the PI to cease the harassment or an injunction will be sought and sue them for the harassment as well. This needs either about £8 grand spare cash or be poor enough to qualify for free court fees and do the work themselves

[HP Mum]

8k     No.

does relative have to write/ say simple trying to serve on wrong person/address etc and can't help them?

(relative is very elderly)

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by HP Mum

[BazzaS]

Is this related to one or more (which?) of your previous complicated Landlord / Tenant and Mortgage repossession threads.

 

if so, knowing which would help disentangle the complexities : the background could be critical, but it is difficult to know which are and aren’t related.

You might consider getting the individuals to post here themselves, rather than you posting multiple (linked or not??) complex scenarios.

[HP Mum]

Resurrecting this thread.

Yes it was a pi.

More letters came to relative; Car lurking. hassling neighbours 

Then nothing; then it started again. All other mail remained unopened until today.

 

I now understand they're trying to locate me, not another member of extended family, and were kind of misleading elderly relative. 

 

So now I understand they have played dumb on purpose. 

They have my contact details - but they didn't want to really find me. 

 

Interestingly both bank and lawyer stopped emailing me  few weeks before the harassment of relative started. 

So they appointed a pi in a different geographical area, to attempt to serve at an address they knew I hadn't lived in for decades. 

 

 Obviously the SD wasn't received/ opened. 

Few months passed and another letter in post. 

Now read, it says that they wanted to attend on certain day/time (missed obviously) to issue a BK petition. 

And if not there they would go for substituted service.

 

It is now very clear that the bank appointed such a poor pi on purpose - to expedite a back-door B without my knowledge. 

Repossessed ages ago but is still unsold. 

 

Papers state that the loans are being recalled, makes no mention they already have possession of property that was secured.    

I suspect their plan is to grab the property as part of the overall loan debt owed and make me BK - then can do what they want with the property in a better market?   

 

They have had offers - but none high enough to clear debt. 

I understand the receiver has been in discussions with people - the last email received showed that  everyone was at a similar level.  But he hasn't closed one.   

Neither has he advised that he or the bank wish to locate me to serve papers.

 

Can't afford a lawyer.

What to do now?

 

 How quickly after attempted b petition service can they go for substituted?

 

Surely the SD hasn't been properly served, let alone them going for a bk petition.

 

Should i contact pi? or relative? in writing

 

 

yes.  sent you a message

[BazzaS]

Thanks for the pm.

 

I’d still suggest you consider posting (openly, on each thread) which threads involve which people, so people get the benefit of any relevant previous, without them all getting confused.

 

If any thread is an update on a previous thread, consider asking the Mods (site team) to merge them if the previous adds useful background.

[BazzaS]

Odd that there is a repossessed and unsold property.

are there other debts as well as the mortgage?

 

my reason for asking is that if the property is as yet unsold, how can they claim for a ‘mortgage shortfall’ if they don’t yet know if there will be one, and if there is one how much it will be.

 

Either the bankruptcy can be fought off on this basis, or there is more to the story.

 

An additional factor to consider: Is going bankrupt a good or poor option for the alleged debtor?

If they were considering going bankrupt but didn’t have the fee to hand : the mortgage co. might be “doing them a favour”!

It depends on if bankruptcy is a good option or not for them.

Often it isn’t, but sometimes it can be, with the “slate wiped clean” benefits.

[unclebulgaria67]

HP Mum, have you considered that bankruptcy might be your best option, depending on your circumstances ?

 

Have you had advice about this ?

 

If you have a number of different debts which you could never repay, it would save you the cost of going bankrupt, if a Bank did this for you ?

 

 

 

 

[BazzaS]

A point I made, UB, though you have phrased it better 

[HP Mum]

I would rather not go B.   I have managed to juggle finances over the years w/o.  There's a couple small debt issues but I am trying to deal with them and should over time..  And I think this issue could be sorted?

 

Bit of background: was professionally advised/ borrowed high interest short-term loan to be repaid when property sold. But it just didn't sell. 4y trying. And interest just accrued. They repossessed and marketed immediately.  They priced it lower than the debt was.  I guess they hoped they'd flog it quick. 1y later unsold and another year's interest.  

 

Trying to understand the current situation.

For a few months they wrote they had offers.

Apparently most interested buyers wanted to buy only with fh - which they couldnt.  They got one offer immediately for their charged interest, but much lower.  After 6m they advised that offer was still there - but they hadn't accepted.  Note - interest still accruing.

 

At this point their lawyer stopped communicating - altho he did ask who my lawyer was.   I see now the dates in the SD papers correspond with this date.  I didn't have a personal lawyer. But the bank/receiver (his client) had separately used their powers as mortgagee to use me/ my tenure to serve separate papers for the fh (ultimately unsuccessfully) - so I simply replied that there were different lawyers involved on that issue and his client would be able to update him.  I see now the lawyer will (sneakily) use in court my reply as if I was avoiding telling him who my lawyer was. Reality - I didn't have one.

 

A few weeks later I followed up with the bank. They advised they had accepted a slightly higher offer. Higher yes. But the accrued interest meant it was effectively lower that the offer they'd been sitting on!  The bank said it wasn't for them to deal with anymore - a receiver would deal with it now. 

 

Receiver sent some emails. I replied initially. But he advised he was unable to divulge details of offer price or names.   I haven't chased him.  It's been a very difficult time and it has impacted on my well-being. Good days/ bad days.

 

The sale never materialized.

In reality they have used this same period to hassle relative.  So all 3 - bank, receiver, lawyer - could have asked, texted, emailed me where I was located.  They didn't. 

This is speculative but it seems they had a tactic to serve papers knowing I may never get them?

 

Having now seen the SD - they state I haven't repaid the loans which they consider "unsecured".

Weird given they have the property?

And they are petitioning for B for the sum of the loans, the £s debt accrued.

 

I don't understand why - if they had 2 offers and  the higher one they accepted then fell through - why they didn't revert to sell to the other slightly lower offer they advised they had?  And then come to a later agreement with me once the shortfall is known?  At that point the shortfall debt would be known and I would have thought that would be the point to go for B?

 

If they petition for B now -  Would they become the new owner rather than mortgagee in possession?  So they could do whatever they wanted with it - or sell when the market improves?  If so - what happens if this " Boris bounce" really happens and they then within months sell at higher price? High enough that it would have covered my shortfall and prevented B.   Would I have a legal complaint or not?

 

Separately - in the SD I see they refer to an assignment. 2 loans into 1 loan. But they never did it properly - no noa, no correct signatures.  From other threads/ past experiences I know this is an important issue.

 

On a different thread I saw that people advised sending in a sar when bank starts claiming money.   Should I send one in now?  Try to get to bottom of everything - like why they never closed with the offer/s? The assignment. The costs incurred etc...

 

in post#4 dx you say that a processor has to serve the Stat Demand personally to be able to action a bankruptcy petition.

 

I don't understand how a processor can still serve a SD when they have been told directly by the elderly owner they have the wrong address?

 

How can a processor then attempt serving a B petition after being told and clearly having done surveillance and asked neighbours that a completely different person lives at that address? And they know the SD has not been served in person?

 

And how can the processor also state in legal docs that if the person - who they know doesn't live at that address - doesn't receive the B petition that they will apply for a substituted service?

 

Do I need to do anything? 

Is it enough that elderly relative has now contacted the processor/lawyer to point out their errors?

Or there may be an invalid SD in the court system and I need to find out and act accordingly (set aside)

 

 

[ericsbrother]

Relative can also write to bank with a complaint about the deliberate processing of incorrect data but the problem in going down the data protection route is tht it is not THEIR data that is wrong but the missing homeless person's data. So a letter stating that the missing person has no connection with teh address and they should cease their harassment of an elderly person as it is  not only a criminal offence but also a breach of various codes of conduct they must adhere to

[HP Mum]

thanks ericsbrother.

So the bank and their lawyer knowingly sending private financial info to the wrong address is a criminal offence and breaching financial codes of conduct?  Do you mean gdpr? or codes within the fca?

 

An update to this and another associated thread  - so maybe the mods could merge with my other thread "bank/dca/ strangers harrassing relative" ?

[BazzaS]

I suspect they are “playing the ‘long game’l

 

a) they expect you to go for a set aside of the SD : if you don’t they get their B petition

 

b) they expect you to go for a set aside, but hope to get your address for service of a valid SD from it. If the address is good enough for you to use for court papers it is good enough to serve to.

 

c) If you go for a SD saying you don’t have an address, they agree to have the set aside heard at a hearing in person. Then then use that to serve you with a valid SD, served in person & in front of the judge hearing your set aside application ......... so they can say “not a shadow of doubt it was served!”

Edited February 21, 2020 by BazzaS

[HP Mum]

But they still haven't served a SD on me. 

 

So - just trying to research expiry

-  I read that there is a 4 month period for creditor to take action before the SD expires.

Is that 4 months from alleged date of service? 

 

Does the incorrectly addressed/posted SD have to be correctly served within the same 4 month period?

 

What if the time for the debtor to respond to the then correctly served SD

- and for the creditor to take action

- then goes beyond the 4 months?   

(ie its already more than 3m since they served at wrong address).

Does the creditor have to issue and serve a new SD when they know where to serve correctly?

 

I also just read:

 

"A creditor must ‘do all that is reasonable to bring the statutory demand to the debtor’s attention and, if practicable in the particular circumstances, serve the demand personally’

 

"The legal test is that a creditor ‘must do everything possible to bring the statutory demand to the Debtor’s attention".

It seems that this creditor failed utterly. 

They had the ability to bring it to my attention

- they chose to do the opposite

- to do everything possible to not let me see the papers!!

 

 Also is there a register that shows if SDs served? 

I checked Gazette so far

 

[BazzaS]

Do they have an address for you?

 

if not, how are you expecting them to bring it to your attention? And / or serve it in person??

[HP Mum]

They have email and phone - and they could have asked/ emailed me?

 

 The research I have done shows creditor's can use email to serve.   

They never asked me where I moved to.

 

They knew they made me homeless but they were regularly communicating other things by email - so they could have asked.

They didnt. 

No idea how they found the elderly relative.

tbh - I don't have a fixed abode.