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    • If you are flying away tomorrow (or rather this) morning I'd just forget about complaining to the police now.  As BF said earlier it's probably just a waste of your time anyway so I wouldn't worry about it.  Forget it for now.  Have a safe flight and concentrate on your other thread against Aviva.
    • I'm afraid you won't get a complaint drafted before tomorrow morning - and I think most others here think it would be a waste of time anyway and that the police decision won't change.  I would ask for a review and make a complaint on principle, but I suspect you are better off concentrating your effort on your other thread and direct complaint against Aviva.   Unless you are out of the country for an extended period I'd wait until your return before considering futrther whwther to complain about the police.   [ By the way, just so that you don't mislead yourself as it's a mistake many people make, ALL agreements are "verbal" in that they are composed of words.  Some agreements are in writing and others are oral, spoken or vocal.  The law recognises oral or spoken agreements just as much as ones that are written down.  The only practical difference is that oral agreements can be difficult to prove in a dispute]
    • Just to add there is a scheme called the Victim's Right to Review.  It basically applies to decisions made by the CPS not to go ahead with a prosecution.  It doesn't apply to decisions made by local police forces, but it does say:   19.  Decisions that are not eligible for VRR include: ... iii where the police or other investigator exercises their independent discretion not to investigate or not to investigate a case further (whether in consultation with the CPS or not) and the CPS have not been requested / have been unable to make a final decision to charge. Requests for review of such decisions should instead be addressed to the relevant police force/other investigator; [My bold] Victims' Right to Review Scheme | The Crown Prosecution Service WWW.CPS.GOV.UK   I'm not familiar with the scheme so can't advise - but other posters here may know about it or have experience of it.  You need to read the above link but note that it talks about things that seem to fit your situation.   eg a victim is defined as ‘a person who has made an allegation that they have suffered harm, including physical, mental or emotional harm or economic loss which was directly caused by criminal conduct’.   If you have not already requested that the police review their decision not to pass the case onto the CPS, then I would do so.  If you are not happy with the outcome of that, complain.   I can't advise you definitely to go ahead and ask for a review or complain, but if I were in your situation that is what I would do.  But I tend to agree with BankFodder that you'll get nowhere and, if you are sick and tired of all this and just want it to go away, then just drop the police.  However, if you don't try...   [Apologies for the italic typeface/font - it's the above link causing it.  The italics should have stopped at the end of the third para above ending ' ... criminal conduct'.  I can't change it.  Very annoying]
    • @Manxman in exile I eloped to get with my husband si my husband and siblings never sat together in the same room .   Hes claiming a verbal agreement was made but a verbal agreement doesn't hold any water in the eyes of the law..no agreement was made I was in Leeds with my toddler.    He has made use of the policy , had the luxury of the insurance and reversed the money back and now Aviva are coming after me.   You've summed it up well is there anyone in the group that can help me draft the complaint to the police as I'm flying out first thing tomorrow and my head is all over the place.   My husband me Mr z , my late father and eldest brother were at this meeting supposedly when the verbal agreement was made but yet the officer took a statement off the eldest brother and didn't take it off the husband and based the final decision on the eldest brothers statement and Mr Z and all other evidence which is in written form has been completely dismissed    I'm fighting it all alone coming from an Asian background I am getting taunts and salt is bring rubbed on my wounds its not been a pleasant experience yo say the least trying to prove my innocence and having to listen to the b******* being spouted out by everyone whilst Mr Z is walking away not guilty 
    • I would complain to the police - even if I thought it would go nowhere.  I can't see that you have anything to lose.   I can't tell you the grounds of your complaint because I don't know the details of everything that has happened (you know better than I do)  and because I've found much of the story too difficult to follow.     But - based on everything you have told us - it seems to me that your brother has clearly committed fraud by obtaining the benefit of an insurance policy by falsely misrepresenting that he was opening the policy on your behalf and also by falsely misrepresenting himself - or a third party - as being your husband.  If your brother could not have taken out that policy without making those misrepresentations, then he has committed fraud.  It doesn't matter whether the victim was Aviva or you  and it doesn't matter if the victim realises they've been defrauded or not - the police should investigate it properly.  In this case you are the ultimate victim of the fraud because Aviva are saying that you owe them for the premiums on the policy your brother fraudulently took out, so whether Aviva consider they were the victims of fraud or not is irrelevant - they don't care because you end up as the fall guy.  Point out that this may have ended in a civil dispute over a debt between you and Aviva, but that that debt directly arises as a result of your brother's fraud in claiming to be acting on your behalf and by impersonating your brother.   One of the reasons the police seem to have dropped this case (and this needs to be one of your main grounds of complaint I think) is that they have accepted without question your brother's statement that your husband was somehow involved or in some way agreed to your brother taking this policy out in your name, and the police have simply and uncritically accepted your brother's word on that without ever speaking to your husband, who would vigourously deny it.    (I can't make any better suggestion than that because, to be honest, I don't follow what has happened.  If you never authorised your brother to open this insurance policy at all then I don't understand why the police would place any importance at all on your husband being present at a meeting with your brother.  What did your husband's presence have to do with the insurance policy?  Even if he had been at such meeting (which you say he denies) then how could he authorise anything on your behalf?  None of it makes any sense to me and I can't see why the police would think it did.)   Challenge the police to explain to you why they believe there is insufficient evidence to pass this on to the CPS   I would follow the published complaints procedure of the police force in question and I would also send a copy to your local Police and Crime Commissioner.   I think the main problem here is that (despite what the nice woman PC may have suggested to you) the police have never considered you to be the victim.  You need to demonstrate to them via your complaint that you are the victim here.   One other question: is your husband and are your family supporting you through this, or are you going it alone?
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Advise on recovery of a person to person debt with a signed agreement please.


Bakerboy27
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Hi all, I know this is an unusual one for this site but here goes.

 

I have known a couple for a few years, helped them out no end and seemed to be quite friendly with them, they found themselves in a bad housing situation where they couldn't find a bond to move from the accommodation they were in (slum landlord) to a new place.

 

long story short,

I loaned them the money. around 800 quid.

 

we both agreed that this was a loan, not a gift and I have a signed agreement to that end.

Also because of their circumstances this was a no interest loan and I gave them the option of varied payments because as we all know sometimes things just don't go well.

 

The first payment was half what we agreed, now that was not a problem and I expected it anyway, I had nothing to gain by putting any undue pressure on. 

 

The second payment was missed completely, that also wouldn't have been an issue if the couple had talked to me but the situation is that they won't answer calls, texts or visits. I have no idea why unless they just want to get away without paying at all.

 

This leaves me with no choice other than to try court action,

I can't afford to loose that money really so am looking for any advice that I can get.

 

If they talked to me I wouldn't even consider this.

 

Thanks

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  • dx100uk changed the title to Advise on recovery of a person to person debt with a signed agreement please.

Hi

 

Please be patient I am sure our caggers will be along to assist you.

 

Could your post you post up a Redacted copy of the Agreement you mention in PDF only please?

 

Do you know there exact present address?

 

I note you mention you have tried to contact them to sort this out but have you done this in writing ensuring to keep a copy and get free proof of posting form the Post Office? (you need to keep a good paper trail.)

 

IMO from your post it may be that you as you are aware may need to go down the legal route to recover the  money loaned but we do need more information.

 

 

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I cannot give any advice by PM - If you provide a link to your Thread then I will be happy to offer advice there.

I advise to the best of my ability, but I am not a qualified professional, benefits lawyer nor Welfare Rights Adviser.

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Thanks for that, 

Do I know their address ?   Yes, I moved all their furniture in for them, not to mention supplying a lot of it in the first place !!

The agreement is attached with the names changed, the second note which in retrospect I should have dated was  in a letter I personally put in their postbox along with most of the guide from the Gov.uk website about making a court claim for money, just to hopefully nudge them to contacting me.

I posted this on 23/10/19 at about 11 pm and then sent a text to their phones ( they have 2 each) and got delivery reports to say they had been received.

I also have 2 numbers so I have sent the same message from both numbers to them to make sure that the message got through and have these saved as well.

Something which may be an issue is that they are on benefits so I don't wish to overburden them but just blanking me after all I have done for them is just unacceptable.

IMG.pdf

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Thread moved to General Legal Issues Forum...please continue to post here to your thread.

 

Andy

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Hi

 

If you do take this further you need to bear in mind the Pre-Action Protocol for taking legal action.

 

From reading your PDF especially the Personal Loan Agreement the issue I see is:

 

1. The Date it was agreed/signed (30/09/2019). (due to below)

 

2. The payment you have Agreed as 'Variable Subject to Circumstances'. ( As below you have set no fixed date this is to be paid in full)

 

3. There is No Fixed end date that the Loan is to be Paid in Full by.

 

Yes your agreement states '£50 per fortnight'  but due to the date it was agreed/signed I see the above issues the main one being there is no end date as to which it was to be paid by and you agreed to it being variable but nothing states they need to agree that with you the Lender o this.

 

Please be patient and see what others say.

 

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I cannot give any advice by PM - If you provide a link to your Thread then I will be happy to offer advice there.

I advise to the best of my ability, but I am not a qualified professional, benefits lawyer nor Welfare Rights Adviser.

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Thanks Stu, I realise that this is full of holes. as is, I guess, often the case this is an unexpected situation and because of this the agreement was never meant to be a contract but rather a note of intent.

Ironically the borrowers were quite firm on having something in writing to do it the right way !!

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

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That is a very good point,when we first talked about this they were told, we don't care how long it takes to pay it back, if you can't manage to pay what you think, just talk to us because we know things don't always go to plan.

 I have helped this couple with LOTS of things , from shopping trips when they were broke , cash when thy needed help,  thats just the tip of the iceberg. 

I'm really ticked off about it, I am aware that  it is a possibility that I won't get anything but I can't just leave it without trying.

I provided these people with a complete new start in life that was just not available to them.

What would you do ?

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I would draft a well worded letter before claim which you must now do as per Pre Action Protocol informing them of your disappointment and failure to respond.

Inform them of the costs and interest that will be added should you have to litigate and the consequences of having a County Judgment against both their names.

 

Allow 14 days for a response...if any.......otherwise you will issue the claim. 

 

Andy

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Thank you, I will get onto that this afternoon and post up before I send. 

What sort of proof do I need that the letter has been sent ? 

I dont imagine they would sign for anything recorded delivery and with it being a flat the post box is remote from the flat.

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The law on this can seem a bit odd (The Interpretation Act 1978). You are often better off (if you chose to send a single letter) sending it ordinary post (which may as well be first class), ensuring

a) That the correct postage is fully paid, and

b) getting a (free!) certificate of posting.

 

The interpretation act says that it is then considered delivered 2 working days later, unless it can be shown to the contrary.

 

So you are better off (if sending a single letter) to do just that, rather than sending it by a tracked method (recorded delivery or special delivery) where, if there is no signature for delivery, they might “show to the contrary”  that it hadn’t been delivered.

 

Of course, if you are having to go to the Post Office anyhow to get the certificate of posting, there is nothing (bar cost!) stopping you sending 2 identical letters at the same time

a) one by a tracked method, (with proof of posting), and

b) one by ordinary post with proof of posting.

 

If the first gets signed for : proof positive of the delivery. If you don’t get a signature for the first that won’t stop you using the provisions of the Interpretation Act for the second .....

 

This is also a good technique to use where you think recipients will try and ‘dodge’ Recorded and Special Delivery mail ......

 

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Thank you all, I use Ebay a lot so am familiar with the proof of posting, I like the idea of doubling up for the sake of a bit of postage so thanks for that idea. 

I will get on to this this afternoon.

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Either which ever you feel more comfortable with and knowing the debtors how they may respond.You failed to mention the date of this loan but I would also add that along with court costs there will be interest added at 8 % (See Section 69  County Courts Act 1984 )  up until judgment should you attain a judgment.

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And should be clearly headed in bold before the Dear Friends......Letter before Claim

We could do with some help from you.

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Thats with regards to the procedure to disclose documents and allow time to  mediate...which is not applicable in this dispute........its 14 days for the actual letter before action.but it's your choice and how effective you wish the letter to be....or how reasonable you wish to be.

We could do with some help from you.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 29/10/2019 at 05:02, BazzaS said:

If it comes to court and you succeed, do they have the ability to pay?

If not, “you can’t get blood from a stone”.

 

Well it's come to the time to the time to do something about this and I have been giving this a lot of thought particularly what BazzaS has said.

 So, I have no experience in these matters and while it really ticks me off, what is the likelihood of a satisfactory result ?  I don't doubt that there is a very good chance of a successful court finding but if the chance of payment is very slim then there is little point in wasting more money.

 They are on benefits and have nothing of any real value so sending bailiffs in would be pointless. the only other possibility as far as I see would be to have a payment direct from the benefits.  Would this even be a possibility ? 

 I did get a few texts from them last weekend when they accused me of messing with their benefits and were very abusive so to just let it go doesn't sit well with me but I have to be practical.

 

Thanks Everyone.

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