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radmm0

NCP windscreen PCN - Parked Outside Marked Bay - Woodside Park LU Station Car Park,

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Hi

 

Windscreen ticket (Notice To Driver) - Date of infringement?  8/8/2019

 

Have you yet appealed to the parking company?   YES, after receiving the NTK letter

 

The following appeal was sent to NCP via their website on 15/9/2019:

 

"The photos taken of my car by the NCP attendant, which are attached to the PCN online, clearly show that the two adjacent spaces are of unequal widths. 

I have a number of photos of other vehicles that have also parked on or over the line in the same space AND other spaces in this car park. 

Also, please note that a significant number of the spaces here aren't properly marked. 

 

I have parked at the Woodside Park LU car park for many years and have noted that the parking space by the pay machines near the entrance to the car park is never used, as it is of non-standard width, so no vehicles would be able to park in this space. 

 

Please use your local rep to measure the two adjacent spaces to confirm this. 

This is the reason I parked in the manner I did, as NO OTHER vehicle could/would have been able to park next to my car anyway

- even if one parks within the markings next to the non-standard width end-space. 

General Point - it would be useful to be able to upload/attach photos to the NCP 'informal appeal' portal."

 

Has there been a response?  YES by email (see italic text below):

"Thank you for your recent correspondence regarding the above notice number. We have considered the case carefully and have decided to reject your appeal on the following grounds;

The parking attendant observed and recorded that the vehicle was not parked wholly within the confines of a marked bay.

Your vehicle was recorded as parked outside of a bay. It is clearly signposted that all vehicles must be parked wholly within one designated marked bay at all times for health and safety reasons and therefore would not warrant us in cancelling the notice.

With regard to your comments concerning other vehicles, the parking Attendants do not remain static in one location for the duration of their shift, they are expected to patrol the entire site. A perceived failure to issue a PCN to another vehicle does not invalidate the PCN issued to your vehicle.     

The Terms and Conditions of which our services are provided are clearly displayed on entrance and throughout our facilities, including the requirement for all motorists to park within the markings of a designated bay. We are confident that all signage and the PCN are compliant with all industry standards and to the British Parking Association's code of practice to which we subscribe. 

You now have the following options;
Pay the Parking Charge Notice at the discounted amount of £60.00 within 14 days. Please note that after this time the Parking Charge Notice will increase to the full charge of £100.00.
Payment can be made:

* Online, by visiting https://www.ncp.co.uk/pcn
* By sending a cheque or postal order, made payable to National Car Parks Ltd to: National Car Parks Ltd. Notice Processing, PO Box 839, Northampton, NN4 4AL.
* By Debit or Credit card (except American Express). Please call 0330 088 2902 and have your card details and the information held in this letter to hand.

Alternatively, you can make an appeal to POPLA - The Independent Appeals Service. If you wish to make an appeal to POPLA the forms are available on the website at www.popla.co.uk. The verification code you will need in order to appeal to the Independent Appeals Service is 1234567890 Please note that if you opt for independent arbitration of your case you will lose your opportunity to pay the discounted offer and the full amount of the parking charge will apply. Your appeal to POPLA must be made within 28 days of the date of this letter, any appeals to POPLA made after the 28 days will not be assessed. The independent adjudicator is unable to waive the parking notice because of mitigating circumstances and a decision will be based on facts and evidence only. If you have any trouble in appealing or cannot access the website please contact us on 01604 625 622.

By law we are also required to inform you that Ombudsman Services (www.ombudsman-services.org/) provides an alternative dispute resolution service that would be competent to deal with your appeal.  However, we have not chosen to participate in their alternative dispute resolution service.  As such should you wish to appeal then you must do so to POPLA, as explained above.

If you choose to do nothing, we will seek to recover the monies owed to us via our debt recovery procedures and may proceed with Court action against you.
Yours sincerely,
Notice Processing Team

National Car Parks." 

 

Have you received a Notice To Keeper? (NTK) - YES - received 15/9/2019

 

What date is on it?  10/9/2019

 

Did the NTK provide photographic evidence?  YES - on their website for the PCN number

 

Did the NTK mention Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA)   NO

 

If you appealed after receiving the NTK,

Did the parking company give you any information regarding the further appeals process?  YES (as shown in their email reply above)

 

Who is the parking company?  NCP

 

Where exactly did you park?  Woodside Park on the Norther Line - London Underground Station Car Park, which is run by NCP.

 

I've parked at a London Underground station's car park that is run by NCP for many years. 

It is fully ANPR with two ticket machines at the entrance to the site.

 

I've been given a PCN for the following reason:

 

'The parking attendant observed and recorded that the vehicle was not parked wholly within the confines of a marked bay.'

 

Please note that the bay next to the one I was parked in (my car is the blue Honda CRV) is approximately 18 inches narrower than all the other 'standard' bays on this site (photos attached). 

 

The other photo (of the black car) was taken of the same location (bay) my car was parked in to indicate the narrowness of the non-standard bay next to the 'standard bay' with a vehicle parked in it. 

 

As you can see, there's no way any other vehicle could possibly park in the narrower bay, which is the reason many drivers park in a similar way to the photos attached, either just on the line or like my car just over the line into the adjacent narrower bay.  Also, it is worth noting that I had parked in this way due to the vehicle in the bay to my left had parked very close to the bay line, so I had to leave room for them to be able to get into their car.

 

I submitted an online appeal to NCP after receiving the Notice to Keeper letter, which of course was rejected!

 

I'm now trying to do the POPLA appeal, but have a few questions before I submit it online. 

 

Please note the following details about the case: 

 

I would appreciate if you could let me know what's the best approach to this issue.

 

Many thanks.

 

radmm0

 

 

 

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please put your photos up in ONE multipage PDF

images posted directly to screen removed.

 

shame you appealed and named yourself as the driver

bang shot yourself in the foot!

 

its LU land and their byelaws overrule any stupid private parking co imaginary contract.

suggest you get reading up.

 

dx

 


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PLEASE DONT HIT QUOTE IF THE LAST POST IS THE ONE YOU ARE REPLYING TOO.

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Little point in appealing to POPLA as you did park outside the lines and thus broke their stupid rules.

none of these parking companies seem capable of complying with all the regulations necessary to form a contract with the motorist.

 

So all we have to do is find where NCP have gone wrong in your case. F

irst thing is to post up copies of the Driver and Keeper notices.

Then take photos of the notices in the car park including those at the entrance and on the ticket machine if there is one.

Also post up photos of any signs that are worded differently from the others.

 

There are small cars like the Smart and the fiat 500 as well as motorbike with side cars that could probably fit into those spaces so not an argument worth using with any of the parking companies. 

 

you could also have a look at the local Councils planning section on line and see if they have planning permission for their signs under the Town & Country [advertisements] regulations. they don't bother most of the time and it is illegal for them not to have Council permission. If the signs shouldn't be there then no contract can be formed.

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its railway land

railway byelaws.

 

dx

 


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LUL/TfL have their own rules so read them first.

 

Also read POFA 2012 so you understand the hoops the parking co's have to jump through to get a claim to stick.

 

By appealing you have given them the rope to hang you with so before you appeal show us the pictures of the site and also the signage.

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Thanks a lot guys.

 

I'll be on it tonight and tomorrow night, as need to get photos of their signage tomorrow.

 

Unfortunately the deadline for going thru POPLA is this Wednesday (28 days after I received their email reply to the internal appeal rejection on 18th Sept).

 

Rgds.

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Read what DX & EB said about bye-laws.

 

I presume you go there regularly.  Could you have a look at the bye-laws on site (and if not displayed, do a web search for them?)

 

No private company can have interest in land covered by bye-laws, so there's no point wasting time appealing to POPLA.  The fleecers will try it on & try to scare you with their silly letters, but in the end will go back under their stone.

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Hi all

 

I've taken some more photos of the car park, its signage and the ticket machines.

 

Please also note that the additional photo taken this morning of the two unequal adjacent bays is to show the very reason I had parked over the line on the right, as nobody ever parks in the narrow bay and we all have to leave enough room for drivers to be able to get in and out of their car!

 

I'll take a better shot of the Rules on my way home tonight and will post it later this evening together with the paid ticket for parking at the site, the NtK & original PCN.

 

Thanks again for all your help.

 

Does this link indicate whether or not Woodside Park station is under the TFL Byelaws or not, as I'm a bit confused?!

 

https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/freedom-of-information/foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-2209-1819

 

Rgds.

Andy

NCP Car Park Details.pdf

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They are all gov't by railway byelaws regardless to the rail operator of the area


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Hi dx

 

Thanks again for helping me out with this.

 

So, does that mean one can ignore them from now on?

 

Tnx.

Andy

 

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Yes - while they are sending you their "scary" (more like silly) letters.  Expect loads more, that mean absolutely nothing.

 

However, come back here if you get a formal Letter Before Claim/Action.

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Thanks a lot everyone again.

 

Hopefully I won't be back for this topic anytime soon, but will definitely return for something else that needs your informed knowledge!

 

Rgds.

Andy

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we need to be able to read all of the small print so will need you ro rephotograph the signs and parking payment meters again in close up. All you have so far is evidence their signage is inadequate as it is impossible to read!

 

Bylaw 14 applies anyway so you dont have to pay these bandits at all and they cant win a court claim as they have no locus standi.

 

get the decent piccies for further comment/advice and keep radio silence until 6 months have passed and then no-one can do anything about it

 

I believe that there isnt a marked bay there anyway as the paint job doesnt fit the requirements for the TRD minimum.

Now they may want to argue that on road laws dont apply but then what are they using to determine the markings and how you were outside them?

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Sure, will do.

 

Thanks again for your help.

 

Rgds.

Andy

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pers i'd sit on your hands with regard to ever responding unless or until they issue a letter of claim

 

dx

 


PLEASE DONT HIT QUOTE IF THE LAST POST IS THE ONE YOU ARE REPLYING TOO.

MAKES A THREAD TWICE AS LONG TO SCROLL THROUGH!

please do not post jpg images directly to a topic..USE PDF ....READ UPLOAD.

 

WE CAN'T GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU SEND ME A LINK TO YOUR THREAD - I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER HELP THERE

Single Premium PPI Q&A Read Here

Reclaim mis-sold PPI Read Here

Reclaim Bank Account, Loan & Credit Card Charges Read Here

The CAG Interest Tutorial Read Here

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well, some of the terms are unfair terms and that means the whole contract is invalid if you do not wish to be bound by it.

Do you really consent to them damaging your car?

would any court think that they can absolve themselves from a civil tort for doing so just by putting it in a sign so far down it is not clear? No chance. if you want examples then you look

 

To pick on another as an example,

they say smoking is prohibited

- well it is prohibitied by the law of the land so if someone in the car park is smoking does that mean NCP will take over from the railway co/CPS in prosecuting this.

 

No,

like their mention of railway byelaws, they are supreme not this illegible contract.

 

Filming without their consent?

not their land so what are they ging to do if you film on railway land, issue you with a demand for £100?

I would love to see that up before a judge.

What about your dashcam?

 

they rely on everyone being more stupid than they are to earn an extra payout.

It still isnt a single marked bay so you cant park outside it

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Would be an interesting case EB if an attendant saw a dashcam in the windscreen and issued a parking Charge under  condition 13.7 no filming.  They might be on a sticky wicket with that one.  there is plenty to throw at them if they are silly enough to send a Letter Before Claim.


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I see their new online T&C's say no stepping on the cracks between the paving slabs in the High St or you are "it" and owe them 1/4lb of jelly babies as well as the £100.

  • Haha 2

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