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Murpheus

CEL ANPR PCN - Dental Practice

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Been here before representing my Daughter over a similar parking charge notice that escalated to around £650 and a Court hearing.

With your advice and pre typed letters, they backed off and I haven't heard from then since.

Now it is me against the ropes and seeking advice from you once more. 

 

 I did try to update my Daughters case and thank you for all your help but for some reason I could not log into my account. I have had to re-register and this is the problem I have.  

 

Briefly 

Had an appointment with Dentist 10/07/2019 whom I have been using for years and always park in the same bay. Went home then a week later PCN landed.

 

Thinking I was going senile and very angry with myself; I could not understand why I did not see any signs.

I went back to the car park and then realized why.

 

The sign at the entrance was obscured by road signs for roadworks, another sign in the car park was hidden by a high-top van and the one directly opposite to where I parked was turned 90 degrees. Other signs were and still are turned 90 with the main sign at the entrance when you leave is blank at the back.

Took photos and felt better within myself thinking anyone could have done the same.  

 

Appealed to CE then POPLA who dismissed my appeal as unsuccessful.

I feel hard done by as the POPLA assessment and decision has misunderstood my evidence and photos.

CE are either Numbskulls or have twisted the facts to brainwash POPLA who have agreed to their way of thinking.  

 

CE have twisted facts about my photos as if they were taken the day of my dental visit not a week later [see the "Furthermore"  CE paragraph below.] 

 

 Paragraph further below has POPLA insinuating that I disputed the meaning of the signs by stating  "signage did not make the terms clear" as if they too think I took the photos on the day.  

 

Of course the signs make the terms clear, my argument is I didn't see them that particular day. 

 

Below is an extraxt from CE  

We refer to the Appellant’s submissions that the signage was turned and difficult to see, however, we have attached an image plan dated 27/03/2019 which demonstrates there are many signs on the site which are readable and easy to see.

 

The image submitted from the Appellant of a sign slightly turned is still readable and is not obscured.

Furthermore, it highlights that the Appellant was aware of the signage on the site and failed to comply with the terms and conditions regardless.

 

Below extract from POPLA decision 

Assessor summary of your case

The appellant states that he parked on site to attend a dental appointment.

He states that the terms of the site had changed since the last time he parked two years ago.

He states that signage at the entrance to and throughout the site did not make the terms clear.

The appellant has provided various photographs taken on and around the site. 

 

My summary

CE image plan of the car park looks very convincing back in March this year, my photos tell a different story and were ignored by POPLA. 

 

I have full documents and photos from this case. Please advise what I can legally upload on here. I am aware not to mention any names, reg numbers, case numbers etc. 

  

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please complete this:

 

 

you can put up whatever you like

just eNSURE you remove anything like your name and address/reg no.ref no. from all docs

bothsides of the NTK too please

and appeals/returns each way too.

 

pop it ALL in one multipage PDF only please..

should of thought you'd have learned, don't ever appeal..its worthless 9/10

and puely shoot you in the foot as you ID yourself as the driver!!

 

dx

 


PLEASE DONT HIT QUOTE IF THE LAST POST IS THE ONE YOU ARE REPLYING TOO.

MAKES A THREAD TWICE AS LONG TO SCROLL THROUGH!

please do not post jpg images directly to a topic..USE PDF ....READ UPLOAD.

 

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For PCN's received through the post [ANPR camera capture]  

   

please answer the following questions.  

   

1 Date of the infringement  10/07/2019  

   

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date]  12/07/19 

   

3 Date received  13/07/19 

   

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?/    Yes 

   

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event?  yes 

   

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal]  yes 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up  yes 

   

7 Who is the parking company?  Civil enforcement 

   

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town]    10B QUEENS ROAD, CONSETT, DH8 0BH 

    

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under. Yes 

 

…………………..

 

 

This is what I sent to CE appeal in my own words

 

Reason For Appeal:


Firstly I had an appointment at that time with the dentist. My last visit 2 years ago the car park was free and was not aware of the new parking system.

 

The sign at the front is very obscure especially turning right into the car park. Where I did park, the sign opposite was turned 90 degrees making it hard to see.

 

The door at the surgery was wedged open when I entered not realizing there was a sign relating to the new system

. I cannot remember if there was any signs inside the surgery but once in I always pick up a magazine to read until the dentist is ready to see me. 

 

 

My statement and evidence to POPLA. in response to CE evidence highlighting main arguments.

 

Par 18 . The image submitted from the Appellant of a sign slightly turned is still readable and is not obscured...…..

Me
Not from where I was parked. A photo from the bay shows a pole with the sign facing away. 


Par 18 . Furthermore, it highlights that the Appellant was aware of the signage on the site and failed to comply with the terms and conditions regardless....... 

Me
I treat this paragraph with contempt. There is nothing to "highlight" here as I maintain I did not see any signage;
Regardless ? I could have legally parked right outside the Surgery as there were spaces at the time but having "regard" for disabled and elderly, parked further away having to cross a busy road to the Surgery.


Par 20....,. Furthermore, the Appellant failed to utilise the operator’s helpline phone number,,, (displayed at the bottom of signage) to report the occurrence, or to request advice on what further action could be taken....

Me
How could I have done this ? I only realized there were signs there when the PCN arrived.


Summary.
I stand by statements and maintain that I did not see any signage entering or leaving the car park. The main sign at the entrance is too small and easily missed when you have to turn right though busy traffic and once through carefully avoid pedestrians, some walking their dogs. The main sign is blank at the back. When you leave the car park I would have noticed the private parking rules if the writing was on both sides. Roadworks signs close to the parking sign at the time did not help either. [see photo]


CE evidence is flawed, illegal and contemptuous. Photos submitted are from months ago, Today I have driven into the car park and noticed the same signs turned 90 degrees including the one opposite my bay. CE have done nothing to rectify this disregarding my evidence and the maintenance of the car park.


Showing number plates is a total disregard to patients privacy and I object to these photos being allowed as evidence on the grounds that they may be illegal. 

 

POPLAS assessment and decision....unsuccessful

 

Assessor summary of operator case

 

The operator states that the appellant’s vehicle was parked on site without a permit. It has issued a parking charge notice (PCN) for £100 as a result.


Assessor summary of your case

 

The appellant states that he parked on site to attend a dental appointment.

He states that the terms of the site had changed since the last time he parked two years ago.

He states that signage at the entrance to and throughout the site did not make the terms clear.

The appellant has provided various photographs taken on and around the site.


Assessor supporting rational for decision

 

The appellant accepts that he was the driver of the vehicle on the date in question. I will therefore consider his liability for the charge as the driver.

 

The operator has provided photographs of the appellant’s vehicle taken by its automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) cameras. These photographs show the vehicle entering the site at 14:17 and leaving the site at 15:13. It is clear that the vehicle remained on site for a period of 56 minutes.

 

Both the appellant and operator have provided photographs of the signs installed on the site. The operator has also provided a site map showing where on site each sign is located.

 

Having reviewed all of the evidence, I am satisfied that signage at the entrance to the site clearly states: “Permit Holders Only … See car park signs for terms and conditions”.

 

Signs within the site itself clearly state:

“DENTAL PRACTICE PERMIT HOLDERS ONLY … ALL PATIENTS AND VISITORS MUST REGISTER FOR A PERMIT AT THE PRACTICE RECEPTION ... IF YOU BREACH ANY OF THESE TERMS YOU WILL BE CHARGED £100.”

 

The signs make the terms of parking on the site clear, are placed in such a way that a motorist would see the signs when parking and are in line with the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice.

 

The operator has provided evidence to show that a search for the appellant’s vehicle has been carried out against the list of vehicles for which a valid permit was held on the date in question.

The appellant’s vehicle does not appear on this list.

 

The appellant states that he parked on site to attend a dental appointment

. I accept that this may have been the case, however I do not accept that this entitled the appellant to park on site outside of the terms.

 

The appellant states that the terms of the site had changed since the last time he parked two years ago. The operator’s photographs of the signage on site are dated 27 March 2019.

 

It is clear based on these photographs that the terms had been in place for at least three months by the time the appellant parked, which I am satisfied was a reasonable period for any regular user of the site to adapt to any change to the terms.

 

The appellant states that signage at the entrance to and throughout the site did not make the terms clear. He has provided various photographs taken on and around the site.

 

As detailed above, I am satisfied based on the evidence as a whole that signage made the terms sufficiently clear. I am satisfied from the evidence that the terms of the site were made clear and that the appellant breached the terms by parking without registering for a permit.

 

I am therefore satisfied that the PCN was issued correctly and I must refuse this appeal.

 

docs1.pdf

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so having taken our advice already and found it useful why did you then decide to appeal to the only parking co currently still in business that has been up before a judge in a criminal court?

 

however the person making the decision does say that the new signage woulod be known to REGULAR users and you certainly arent that.

So what dis dental practice say whe you moaned to them before you appealed?

 

who owns the land?

are there signs inside surgery telling you how it all works?

 

We will need to see all of the relevant signs to be able to offer help on this but by saying only certain peopel may park that means there isnt an offer for random peopel to turn up and park so no genune offer of terms. This is somehting that is outside the remit of POPLA so no surprises there but TBH it doesnt matter.

 

 

 

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A combination of blind confidence and not being able to log back on here is the reason for not contacting you earlier.

 

Well observed regarding the REGULAR users.

2 years ago was last time I parked there and that's the only time I go anywhere near the place.

I did approach the receptionist and even my Dentist but they couldn't understand how I missed the signs and could offer no other help.

 

Will have to find out who owns the land, there is a sign on the door but this was wedged open for either the hot weather or a delivery. There are screens on the receptionists counter but not being used to the new system thought they were some sort of card payment facility.

 

Would be better if they put notices on the walls where most people stare waiting for treatment !

 

I do have more photos but need scaling down for the 4.5 mb limit.

 

Cannot edit it now but previous post from

 

"My statement and evidence to POPLA"  up to "POPLAS assessment and decision....unsuccessful " is exactly what I sent to POPLA and not something I have just written now.

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you can ask the council business rates dept or Valuations Agency  if the land is separate to the dental practice and who actually owns the building. Generally they will tell you.

If it is the dentist I would consider telling them that you intend to counterclaim in any legal action by CE naming them as a co-defendant as they knew there were problems with the signage and sign in system, failed to make tyou aware of the new system and thus failed to mitigate any supposed loss caused by your visit to their practice.

 

but you also have another problem, you dont have pictures iof things as they were to show that bothe dentist ad CE knew there notices were pants so look at streetview and see what you can see in archived images if the current ones are showing things as they are now.

CE will aways be happy to tell lies and invent contracts, signs etc where none exist

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Pardon late reply, had a busy last few days.

I will make enquiries to the Council or Valuations Agency tomorrow when they are open.

 

I am a little apprehensive about getting the dentist involved although I wasn't warned about the new parking system at the time.

 

I have photos but will need to reduce the mb size of them as 4.5 mb is maximum upload on here.

They will also need editing to blot out reg numbers etc.

 

I was given 28 days from CE to cough up after the POPLA decision and that will expire in a few days time.

I intend to take this all the way and to save further action [e.g. debt collectors with the £100 rocketing to the thick end of a Grand]   write to CE and tell them take me straight to Court as all letters will be ignored. 

 

There are 2 photos from my evidence previous post [Docs 1 pdf 2.81 mb]

First is the view I had approaching car park to the right, this differs enormously from google street view.

 

Even with just 1 car in the carpark can you see any signs ?

There is a small road sign in that photo too that was left behind following the roadworks and temporary traffic lights that hid the sign at the front.

 

Second photo is a view from where I parked no wonder I did not see it, in fact the angle is worse viewing from drivers seat as the pole is in line with the tree

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read upload carefully there are sites there to use to reduce PDF size

 

Pointless - don't write any further

await the Letter Of Claim. IF IF one comes

 

DCA can't add nowt to any debt

they ARE NOT BAILIFFS

and have

ZERO legal powers on ANY DEBT.

 

dx

 

 

 

 


PLEASE DONT HIT QUOTE IF THE LAST POST IS THE ONE YOU ARE REPLYING TOO.

MAKES A THREAD TWICE AS LONG TO SCROLL THROUGH!

please do not post jpg images directly to a topic..USE PDF ....READ UPLOAD.

 

WE CAN'T GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU SEND ME A LINK TO YOUR THREAD - I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER HELP THERE

Single Premium PPI Q&A Read Here

Reclaim mis-sold PPI Read Here

Reclaim Bank Account, Loan & Credit Card Charges Read Here

The CAG Interest Tutorial Read Here

spreadsheets 

 

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read up on the tactics of CEL and see what they do rather than inviting them to take ant particular action

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