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CEL ANPR PCN Claimform - Dental Practice 10B QUEENS ROAD, CONSETT, DH8 0BH


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Been here before representing my Daughter over a similar parking charge notice that escalated to around £650 and a Court hearing.

With your advice and pre typed letters, they backed off and I haven't heard from then since.

Now it is me against the ropes and seeking advice from you once more. 

 

 I did try to update my Daughters case and thank you for all your help but for some reason I could not log into my account. I have had to re-register and this is the problem I have.  

 

Briefly 

Had an appointment with Dentist 10/07/2019 whom I have been using for years and always park in the same bay. Went home then a week later PCN landed.

 

Thinking I was going senile and very angry with myself; I could not understand why I did not see any signs.

I went back to the car park and then realized why.

 

The sign at the entrance was obscured by road signs for roadworks, another sign in the car park was hidden by a high-top van and the one directly opposite to where I parked was turned 90 degrees. Other signs were and still are turned 90 with the main sign at the entrance when you leave is blank at the back.

Took photos and felt better within myself thinking anyone could have done the same.  

 

Appealed to CE then POPLA who dismissed my appeal as unsuccessful.

I feel hard done by as the POPLA assessment and decision has misunderstood my evidence and photos.

CE are either Numbskulls or have twisted the facts to brainwash POPLA who have agreed to their way of thinking.  

 

CE have twisted facts about my photos as if they were taken the day of my dental visit not a week later [see the "Furthermore"  CE paragraph below.] 

 

 Paragraph further below has POPLA insinuating that I disputed the meaning of the signs by stating  "signage did not make the terms clear" as if they too think I took the photos on the day.  

 

Of course the signs make the terms clear, my argument is I didn't see them that particular day. 

 

Below is an extraxt from CE  

We refer to the Appellant’s submissions that the signage was turned and difficult to see, however, we have attached an image plan dated 27/03/2019 which demonstrates there are many signs on the site which are readable and easy to see.

 

The image submitted from the Appellant of a sign slightly turned is still readable and is not obscured.

Furthermore, it highlights that the Appellant was aware of the signage on the site and failed to comply with the terms and conditions regardless.

 

Below extract from POPLA decision 

Assessor summary of your case

The appellant states that he parked on site to attend a dental appointment.

He states that the terms of the site had changed since the last time he parked two years ago.

He states that signage at the entrance to and throughout the site did not make the terms clear.

The appellant has provided various photographs taken on and around the site. 

 

My summary

CE image plan of the car park looks very convincing back in March this year, my photos tell a different story and were ignored by POPLA

 

I have full documents and photos from this case. Please advise what I can legally upload on here. I am aware not to mention any names, reg numbers, case numbers etc. 

  

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please complete this:

 

 

you can put up whatever you like

just eNSURE you remove anything like your name and address/reg no.ref no. from all docs

bothsides of the NTK too please

and appeals/returns each way too.

 

pop it ALL in one multipage PDF only please..

should of thought you'd have learned, don't ever appeal..its worthless 9/10

and puely shoot you in the foot as you ID yourself as the driver!!

 

dx

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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For PCN's received through the post [ANPR camera capture]  

   

please answer the following questions.  

   

1 Date of the infringement  10/07/2019  

   

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date]  12/07/19 

   

3 Date received  13/07/19 

   

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?/    Yes 

   

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event?  yes 

   

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal]  yes 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up  yes 

   

7 Who is the parking company?  Civil enforcement 

   

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town]    10B QUEENS ROAD, CONSETT, DH8 0BH 

    

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under. Yes 

 

…………………..

 

 

This is what I sent to CE appeal in my own words

 

Reason For Appeal:


Firstly I had an appointment at that time with the dentist. My last visit 2 years ago the car park was free and was not aware of the new parking system.

 

The sign at the front is very obscure especially turning right into the car park. Where I did park, the sign opposite was turned 90 degrees making it hard to see.

 

The door at the surgery was wedged open when I entered not realizing there was a sign relating to the new system

. I cannot remember if there was any signs inside the surgery but once in I always pick up a magazine to read until the dentist is ready to see me. 

 

 

My statement and evidence to POPLA. in response to CE evidence highlighting main arguments.

 

Par 18 . The image submitted from the Appellant of a sign slightly turned is still readable and is not obscured...…..

Me
Not from where I was parked. A photo from the bay shows a pole with the sign facing away. 


Par 18 . Furthermore, it highlights that the Appellant was aware of the signage on the site and failed to comply with the terms and conditions regardless....... 

Me
I treat this paragraph with contempt. There is nothing to "highlight" here as I maintain I did not see any signage;
Regardless ? I could have legally parked right outside the Surgery as there were spaces at the time but having "regard" for disabled and elderly, parked further away having to cross a busy road to the Surgery.


Par 20....,. Furthermore, the Appellant failed to utilise the operator’s helpline phone number,,, (displayed at the bottom of signage) to report the occurrence, or to request advice on what further action could be taken....

Me
How could I have done this ? I only realized there were signs there when the PCN arrived.


Summary.
I stand by statements and maintain that I did not see any signage entering or leaving the car park. The main sign at the entrance is too small and easily missed when you have to turn right though busy traffic and once through carefully avoid pedestrians, some walking their dogs. The main sign is blank at the back. When you leave the car park I would have noticed the private parking rules if the writing was on both sides. Roadworks signs close to the parking sign at the time did not help either. [see photo]


CE evidence is flawed, illegal and contemptuous. Photos submitted are from months ago, Today I have driven into the car park and noticed the same signs turned 90 degrees including the one opposite my bay. CE have done nothing to rectify this disregarding my evidence and the maintenance of the car park.


Showing number plates is a total disregard to patients privacy and I object to these photos being allowed as evidence on the grounds that they may be illegal. 

 

POPLAS assessment and decision....unsuccessful

 

Assessor summary of operator case

 

The operator states that the appellant’s vehicle was parked on site without a permit. It has issued a parking charge notice (PCN) for £100 as a result.


Assessor summary of your case

 

The appellant states that he parked on site to attend a dental appointment.

He states that the terms of the site had changed since the last time he parked two years ago.

He states that signage at the entrance to and throughout the site did not make the terms clear.

The appellant has provided various photographs taken on and around the site.


Assessor supporting rational for decision

 

The appellant accepts that he was the driver of the vehicle on the date in question. I will therefore consider his liability for the charge as the driver.

 

The operator has provided photographs of the appellant’s vehicle taken by its automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) cameras. These photographs show the vehicle entering the site at 14:17 and leaving the site at 15:13. It is clear that the vehicle remained on site for a period of 56 minutes.

 

Both the appellant and operator have provided photographs of the signs installed on the site. The operator has also provided a site map showing where on site each sign is located.

 

Having reviewed all of the evidence, I am satisfied that signage at the entrance to the site clearly states: “Permit Holders Only … See car park signs for terms and conditions”.

 

Signs within the site itself clearly state:

“DENTAL PRACTICE PERMIT HOLDERS ONLY … ALL PATIENTS AND VISITORS MUST REGISTER FOR A PERMIT AT THE PRACTICE RECEPTION ... IF YOU BREACH ANY OF THESE TERMS YOU WILL BE CHARGED £100.”

 

The signs make the terms of parking on the site clear, are placed in such a way that a motorist would see the signs when parking and are in line with the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice.

 

The operator has provided evidence to show that a search for the appellant’s vehicle has been carried out against the list of vehicles for which a valid permit was held on the date in question.

The appellant’s vehicle does not appear on this list.

 

The appellant states that he parked on site to attend a dental appointment

. I accept that this may have been the case, however I do not accept that this entitled the appellant to park on site outside of the terms.

 

The appellant states that the terms of the site had changed since the last time he parked two years ago. The operator’s photographs of the signage on site are dated 27 March 2019.

 

It is clear based on these photographs that the terms had been in place for at least three months by the time the appellant parked, which I am satisfied was a reasonable period for any regular user of the site to adapt to any change to the terms.

 

The appellant states that signage at the entrance to and throughout the site did not make the terms clear. He has provided various photographs taken on and around the site.

 

As detailed above, I am satisfied based on the evidence as a whole that signage made the terms sufficiently clear. I am satisfied from the evidence that the terms of the site were made clear and that the appellant breached the terms by parking without registering for a permit.

 

I am therefore satisfied that the PCN was issued correctly and I must refuse this appeal.

 

docs1.pdf

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so having taken our advice already and found it useful why did you then decide to appeal to the only parking co currently still in business that has been up before a judge in a criminal court?

 

however the person making the decision does say that the new signage woulod be known to REGULAR users and you certainly arent that.

So what dis dental practice say whe you moaned to them before you appealed?

 

who owns the land?

are there signs inside surgery telling you how it all works?

 

We will need to see all of the relevant signs to be able to offer help on this but by saying only certain peopel may park that means there isnt an offer for random peopel to turn up and park so no genune offer of terms. This is somehting that is outside the remit of POPLA so no surprises there but TBH it doesnt matter.

 

 

 

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A combination of blind confidence and not being able to log back on here is the reason for not contacting you earlier.

 

Well observed regarding the REGULAR users.

2 years ago was last time I parked there and that's the only time I go anywhere near the place.

I did approach the receptionist and even my Dentist but they couldn't understand how I missed the signs and could offer no other help.

 

Will have to find out who owns the land, there is a sign on the door but this was wedged open for either the hot weather or a delivery. There are screens on the receptionists counter but not being used to the new system thought they were some sort of card payment facility.

 

Would be better if they put notices on the walls where most people stare waiting for treatment !

 

I do have more photos but need scaling down for the 4.5 mb limit.

 

Cannot edit it now but previous post from

 

"My statement and evidence to POPLA"  up to "POPLAS assessment and decision....unsuccessful " is exactly what I sent to POPLA and not something I have just written now.

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you can ask the council business rates dept or Valuations Agency  if the land is separate to the dental practice and who actually owns the building. Generally they will tell you.

If it is the dentist I would consider telling them that you intend to counterclaim in any legal action by CE naming them as a co-defendant as they knew there were problems with the signage and sign in system, failed to make tyou aware of the new system and thus failed to mitigate any supposed loss caused by your visit to their practice.

 

but you also have another problem, you dont have pictures iof things as they were to show that bothe dentist ad CE knew there notices were pants so look at streetview and see what you can see in archived images if the current ones are showing things as they are now.

CE will aways be happy to tell lies and invent contracts, signs etc where none exist

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Pardon late reply, had a busy last few days.

I will make enquiries to the Council or Valuations Agency tomorrow when they are open.

 

I am a little apprehensive about getting the dentist involved although I wasn't warned about the new parking system at the time.

 

I have photos but will need to reduce the mb size of them as 4.5 mb is maximum upload on here.

They will also need editing to blot out reg numbers etc.

 

I was given 28 days from CE to cough up after the POPLA decision and that will expire in a few days time.

I intend to take this all the way and to save further action [e.g. debt collectors with the £100 rocketing to the thick end of a Grand]   write to CE and tell them take me straight to Court as all letters will be ignored

 

There are 2 photos from my evidence previous post [Docs 1 pdf 2.81 mb]

First is the view I had approaching car park to the right, this differs enormously from google street view.

 

Even with just 1 car in the carpark can you see any signs ?

There is a small road sign in that photo too that was left behind following the roadworks and temporary traffic lights that hid the sign at the front.

 

Second photo is a view from where I parked no wonder I did not see it, in fact the angle is worse viewing from drivers seat as the pole is in line with the tree

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  • dx100uk changed the title to CEL ANPR PCN - Dental Practice

read upload carefully there are sites there to use to reduce PDF size

 

Pointless - don't write any further

await the Letter Of Claim. IF IF one comes

 

DCA can't add nowt to any debt

they ARE NOT BAILIFFS

and have

ZERO legal powers on ANY DEBT.

 

dx

 

 

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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  • 1 month later...

Just when I was beginning to think it has gone a little quiet, this bomb landed this morning. Below is what I feel like writing back to them.

 

To whom it may concern,

Any letters I receive from you in the near future will be ignored. You can save a lot of time and expense by taking the matter straight to court.

I stand by my statements and would be confident a County Court Judge would look at your actions and the one sided POPLA decision and decide in my favour.

 

yours

 

CE Threat.pdf

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 you'll see the self same letter on most CEL threads here and ofcourse since you came here in September you've read and reseached here so already know this? as post 8 

 

so just to be clear...its not a bomb, if you'd read up you'd not have made that conclusion.

its a std letter

and doesn't need a reply

because that's exactly what it's designed to make you do.

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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no you await if/when you get a letter entitled letter of claim.

already fully explained in post 8

 

dx

 

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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lba, letter befre claim etc. You then respond. If they fail to sned out a proper letter then you can complain to court and if they win (ha!) they get 25% knocked off for being wrong procedurally. The reality is a stiff letter at that stage lets them know they will be wasting their money on a claim and has a 50% chance of knocking things on the head

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  • 2 years later...

Surely this must be against the law.

Is there not a time limit for this sort of action and if so why is the County Court accepting such a late claim ?

 

letter from County Court 23 Dec 2021. I know, Merry Christmas from your ever present shower of ce Bastards.   

 

I am so glad the original post has not been destroyed as it has refreshed my memory and would have been even more stressed trying to gather evidence from ages ago.

 

I still have original photos but ironically destroyed letters from CE about a month ago thinking surely after such a long time, it's history. 

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  • dx100uk changed the title to CEL ANPR PCN Claimform - Dental Practice

threads merged and title updated

 

to allow us to properly advise

please fill this out :

 

 

dx

 

 

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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we only need page 1

if you READ our sticky form it tells you how to calc your times for AOS and defence

 

get it done please

 

dx

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Share on other sites

  • dx100uk changed the title to CEL ANPR PCN Claimform - Dental Practice 10B QUEENS ROAD, CONSETT, DH8 0BH

I will be phoning the court tomorrow [if open] to request more time for defence. I copied and pasted the questionnaire but has very little to do with a parking charge. I will re post any news tomorrow night.

 

Name of the Claimant ?  Civil Enforcement.


Date of issue –   23 DEC 2021


Particulars of Claim
What is the claim for –

 

1.Claim for money relating to a Parking Charge for breach of contract terms/conditions(TCs) for parking in private car park (CP) managed
by Claimant.

 

2.Drivers may only park pursuant to TCs of use displayed in CP and agreed upon entry/parking. ANPR cameras or manual patrols
monitor vehicles entering/exiting the CP and TC breaches.

 

Charges of GBP182.00 claimed.
Violation date: 10/07/2019
Payment due date: 08/08/2019
Time in: 14:17 Time out: 15:13
PCN:xxxxxxx 
Vehicle reg mark xxxxxxx

Car park:- Shotley Bridge Dental Care
Total due- GBP182.00
(Pay:www.ce-service.co.uk or 01158225020)


3. The Claimant claims the sum of GBP217.74 for the unpaid parking charge inc GBP35.74 interest under S.69 of the CCA 1984 Rate: 8.00% pa from due date to- 22/12/21 Same rate to Judgment or sooner payment at daily rate of - GBP O.04
Total debt and interest due- GBP217.74 


What is the total value of the claim?  £302.74

 

Have you received prior notice of a claim being issued pursuant to paragraph 3 of the PAPDC (Pre Action Protocol) Do not understand, last correspondence late 2019 then court claim.


Have you changed your address since the time at which the debt referred to in the claim was allegedly incurred? No
Is the claim for - a Bank Account (Overdraft) or credit card or loan or catalogue or mobile phone account No.
When did you enter into the original agreement before or after April 2007 ?  N/A
Do you recall how you entered into the agreement...On line /In branch/By post ? N/A
Is the debt showing on your credit reference files (Experian/Equifax /Etc...) ?  N/A
Has the claim been issued by the original creditor or was the account assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim. N/A
The rest of the questions are also non appplicable as they seem to be targeted for a loan or credit agrrement. 

2021-12-23 Claimform.pdf

Edited by dx100uk
correct sticky filled out.
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18 hours ago, Murpheus said:

Little confused by that form to fill in, mentions 30 days I have less than 9 unless I ask court for more time to get

 

12 minutes ago, Murpheus said:

I will be phoning the court tomorrow [if open] to request more time for defence.

 

:???:

 

You have 33 days in total if defending the claim in full.....from the date of issue 23rd Dec 2021.....you have 19 days to acknowledge service (Tues 11th Jan 2022 by 4.00pm) and state your intention (defend in full) you then have a further 14 days to submit a defence....(Tues 25th Jan 2022) =33days.

 

Andy

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHER

 

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I have been online to acknowledge claim.

[ A claim was issued against you on 23/12/2021 Your acknowledgment of service was submitted on 29/12/2021 at 15:38:43 ]

Ticked box to defend all the claim, may have ticked box to contest jurisdiction of the court

 

also as I feel after 2 years, no Court should even entertain it.

I may be able to retract that bit if in my interests to do so.

 

I have found more evidence to back up my claim regarding the streetworks obstructing the sign at entrance.

A sinkhole had appeared close by and wagons and plant were parked on the path.

The incident was on the local news and the sign that mattered to me is still to this day turned 90 degrees.

I can prove all that but will have to prove a large white van was obscuring another sign.  

Edited by dx100uk
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pop up on the MCOL website detailed on the claimform

.

register as an individual on the Gov't Gateway Site
Go to HMRC's login page.


Click the GREEN sign in button.
Click “Create sign in details”
Enter your email address where asked.
You will now be emailed a confirmation code. ...


You will now be issued with a User ID for your government gateway account.
 note down your details inc the long gateway number given, you might need it later.
 

then log in to the MCOL Website

.

select respond to a claim and select the start AOS box.

.

then using the details required from the claimform

.

defend all

leave jurisdiction unticked.

click thru to the end

confirm and exit MCOL.

.

get a CPR 31:14 request running to the solicitors

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?486334-CPR-31.14-Request-to-use-on-receipt-of-a-PPC-(-Private-Land-Parking-Court-Claim


type your name ONLY


no need to sign anything

.

you DO NOT await the return of paperwork.

you MUST file a defence regardless by day 33 from the date on the claimform.

………….
 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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22 minutes ago, Murpheus said:

I will be phoning the court tomorrow [if open] to request more time for defence. I copied and pasted the questionnaire but has very little to do with a parking charge. I will re post any news tomorrow night.

 

Name of the Claimant ?  Civil Enforcement.


Date of issue –   23 DEC 2021


Particulars of Claim
What is the claim for – the reason they have issued the claim? Please type out their particulars of claim in full (verbatim) less any identifiable data and round the amounts up/down. £217.74


What is the total value of the claim?  £302.74

 

Have you received prior notice of a claim being issued pursuant to paragraph 3 of the PAPDC (Pre Action Protocol) Do not understand, last correspondence late 2019 then court claim.


Have you changed your address since the time at which the debt referred to in the claim was allegedly incurred? No
Is the claim for - a Bank Account (Overdraft) or credit card or loan or catalogue or mobile phone account No.
When did you enter into the original agreement before or after April 2007 ?  N/A
Do you recall how you entered into the agreement...On line /In branch/By post ? N/A
Is the debt showing on your credit reference files (Experian/Equifax /Etc...) ?  N/A
Has the claim been issued by the original creditor or was the account assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim. N/A
The rest of the questions are also non appplicable as they seem to be targeted for a loan or credit agrrement. 

 

why have you filled out the consumer credit court sticky when this is a parking company speculative invoice court claim?

 

19 hours ago, dx100uk said:

 

to allow us to properly advise

please fill this out :

 

 

dx

 

 

 

 

the one above is the one to do please

 

dx

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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