HCEO's visit to our address for Son's debt

[PRG70]

I have just come across this site and thread,

 

I also had this happen to myself and my wife, I am in my 70's and had HCEO's arrived to claim money from my son who does not live with us.

 

The company was also Court Enforcement Services Limited.

Managed to get £4308.11 out of us.

 

I sent a very lengthy complaint to them,

After a month they replied with a fairly short very dismissive reply to all my points,

this followed several letters going back and forth to get "permission" to complain from our son to them..

 

I sent a signed for letter over two weeks ago asking for the bodycam footage from both HCEO's, Gone in to track progress this morning as no reply from them, Letter has "got lost" in post. I believe they are hiding behind a PO Box number.

I am sending a registered request on Monday with a copy to the ICO.

 

looks like I am going to sue the original creditor for duress as they disconnected all our electronics and put them outside.

 

Don't bother to complain to Court Enforcement Services Limited, I believe they and others have had thousands of complaints and I know of none that were successful

 

Good luck with your claim

 

 

[PRG70]

Background:

 

I am aged 71 and my wife 67 and both retired. We live by ourselves in England

 

Our son who the CCJ was against he is late 20’s.

He worked casual for many years  and since then has retrained and works mainly in Europe.

He was living in East Anglia until earlier this year but do not know where he lives now.

We made a point not to ask but are in communication by phone

Our son-in-law and lives in about 10 miles from us where he runs a building services company

 

Diary of HCEO action:

 

9th Feb 2019       

Letter from Court Enforcement Services arrived. It was franked as 2nd class dated     06-02-19 and addressed to our son.

 

19th Feb 2019    

I spoke to our son on the phone and he asked me to open the letter, I gave him a quick resume of the contents.

He told me he would deal with it when he got back to UK as he was working on the continent.

                                Document 1: Notice of enforcement

                                Document 2: Notice of enforcement envelope

 

21st Feb 2019     

Doorbell rang at 20:25:28 I saw what I thought was a police officer through our obscured glazed door.

When I opened the door he still looked like a police officer but then identified himself as a High Court Enforcement Officer,

he then entered the house saying he was here to collect the sum of £4308-11.

 

He quoted this sum as he arrived and as I now understand had already added 2nd enforcement stage and Sale and disposal stage.

I told him he could not enter and he said as a High Court Enforcement Officer he had the right to break in if we had not let him in.

ACCORDING TO THE GOVERNMENT WEBSITE THIS IS COMPLETELY FALSE.

 

He said he was looking for ****** who is our son, but I told him he did not live here, he asked if he ever came here and I said “yes he’s our son” his reply was “he must live here then”. He flashed what he said was ID and it looked like a passport, we were never shown a certificate from either man.

At this point the other man parked his American type pick-up truck on mine and my neighbour’s drives, blocking them both.

 

My neighbour is disabled and when his son-in-law arrived, he had to leave his car in the road.

This massive pick-up truck broke and dislodged a paving slab on our walkway at the side of the drive.

 

Both the men then made their way inside and asked where he was and which room was his.

It was obvious that only one bedroom was in use as a bedroom in the bungalow.

 

They wandered around looking at the mail and other documents that I had in my study and they said there is post for him so that confirms he lives here (this was the enforcement letter they had sent and another from Chelmsford Council addressed to him and an ex girlfriend which was unopened).

I get quite a lot of mail addressed to him and most of the time put a label on saying “Not at this address and no forwarding address)

Again I told them he did not live here and as far as I knew he was working on the continent.

 

They asked me to contact him and I refused at first saying he was probably working and I could not contact him.

They then said in that case we are going to take goods to pay for his debt.

 

I TOLD THEM THAT WE WERE PENSIONERS AND DID NOT HAVE THAT SORT OF MONEY AND APART FROM THAT IT WAS NOT OUR DEBT and that they were not going to take our possessions.

 

THEY THEN SAID THEY WOULD PHONE THE POLICE AND I SAID TO DO SO AS IT WAS NOW OBVIOUS THEY WERE HERE TO BULLY AND INTIMIDATE US AND OF COURSE THE POLICE DID NOT ATTEND AT ALL AS I ASSUME THEY HAD NOT CONTACTED THEM.

One of them had gone outside and I assumed pretended to phone the police

 

They said we are going to list goods to seize and said they had rang to get a vehicle to take our possessions away.  ( I later deduced this was another lie)

One of them went into my study and stated pulling my laptop about.

 

I explained to them that it belong to HP who I worked for until I retired, last communication I had from HP was they were going to collect the laptop as it contained sensitive company data. The answer I got from them was that they clear the computers before they are auctioned and SHOW A RECEIPT OR WE TAKE IT.

SOMEONE NEEDS TO TELL THEM THAT FORMATTING A HARD DISC DRIVE DOES NOT DELETE DATA, IT ONLY DELETES INDEXES.

Also they cannot take this as I was using it at the time. I am also using the laptop on a development project for a franchise opportunity.

 

 I went into another room and tried to ring our son and eventually succeeded.

I told our son what was happening and he asked to be put on to one of the men.

 

Our son explained that he knew the contents of the letter and would deal with it when he returned.

The man just said to him in a very aggressive voice “Are you going to pay”.

Our son told him he did not have the money and the man replied “then I’m not talking to you” and passed the phone back to me, refusing to talk to him again.

 

The letter I received from them on 3rd Aug 2019 says they spoke to our son several times over the next hour, THAT IS ANOTHER LIE, the total conversation with him was the initial call and that lasted less about 15seconds.

 

In the meantime the second man had walked into our lounge and had disconnected the TV and HiFi equipment, he had taken the TV, HiFi system ,video recorder and DVD player and put them on the ground outside. This was bullying as the VHS video recorder was worth less than £5. Even though they had taken equipment out of our home THEY HAD NOT GIVEN OR OFFERED EITHER OF US A LIST.

 

The total auction value of all the items including HP’s laptop would have been about £300  (I regularly attend auctions and know the approximate prices these items fetch).

I then looked up the receipt for the TV that we purchased from Argos and he just glanced at it and said, “no serial number it could be for any TV” STRANGE IT WAS VERY MAKE AND MODEL SPECIFIC. Just another of their bullying tactics.

 

They also picked up my front door keys without telling me and opened and searched the garage

 

I went into the lounge and my wife was in tears caused by their aggressive nature.

Unbenown to me she had rang our son-in-law to ask for help with this and he agreed to come over from his home 10 miles away.

THIS WAS BECAUSE WE HAD ONLY A COUPLE OF HUNDRED POUNDS IN OUR BANK ACCOUNT  AND THEY WERE DEMANDING THE EQUIVALENT OF FOUR MONTHS OF OUR PENSION INCOME.

 

I was going to let them take our possessions away as I suspected they were bluffing as the value at auction of all the goods they put on the drive was no more than £300, I also knew I could get a receipt for the laptop computer.

 

Our son-in-law spoke to them and they refused to take any payment except the complete amount.

He also told us in front of them that he needed the money back as it left him and his business finances in a precarious position.

 

Our Son-in-law asked how the amount was made up as it was not written anywhere, they just said look at the back of the Notice of Enforcement although the front says Total sum outstanding is £2578.04 they demanded £4308.11

 

Our son-in-law then paid the full amount and they completed a receipt for him.

Document 3: Payment receipt

Document 4: Receipt from debit card reader

 

The men put the equipment back in the lounge and left. 

Feeling totally shell shocked I WENT TO SHUT THE GARAGE DOOR THEY HAD LEFT OPEN ONLY TO FIND I COULD NOT AS THEY HAD TAKEN OUR FRONT DOOR KEY AND GARAGE REMOTE CONTROL  WITH THEM. I could not find the spare remote so had to manually wind down the door.

 

I tried ringing the phone number on the receipt to ask for my keys back but there was just a automatic answer message

There was a knock on our front door about 45 minutes later and they just handed over the keys and left again.

 

21st Mar 2019     Download Money from SIPP pension for son-in-law

 

21st Mar 2019     Transferred £4308.11 to son-in-law’s personal bank account

 

28th Mar 2019     I went to Police Station to complain about behaviour of HCEO’s. They just said, they have unusual powers and go to CAB for advice

 

29th Mar 2019     Went to Citizen’s Advice to see what I could do about this, took paperwork and spoke to first line contact who took details and make new appointment with a more senior consultant

 

17th Apr 2019      Appointment at CAB with more senior person

                                Document 5: email from CAB 170419

 

16th May 2019    Complaint letters sent to Court Enforcement Services Ltd,

                                Document 6: letter to Court enforcement services 160519

                                

 

25th May 2019    Letter received from Court Enforcement Services Ltd to say they need Authorisation to speak to us about the subject. Contacted our son to send authority letter to Court Enforcement Services Ltd. This he sent from Lisbon

                                Document 9: letter from Court enforcement services 250519

 

22nd June 2019   Letter received from Court Enforcement Services Ltd to say Sorry for delay replying to email (WHAT EMAIL, it was a letter) containing a full list of the complaints.

                                Document 10: letter from Court enforcement services 220619

 

28th June 2019    Statutory declarations completed and sworn to cover just Me and My Wife living at our Home and also that we own all contents as listed

                                Document 11: statutory declaration-1

                                Document 12: statutory declaration-2

 

2nd July 2019       Letter and all documents that cover the complaint sent to Court Enforcement Services Ltd

                                Document 13: letter to Court enforcement services 020719

 

3rd August 2019 Letter received from Court Enforcement Services dismissing claim

                                Document 14: letter from Court enforcement services 030819

                                What a waste of time this complaints procedure was

 

6th Sept 2019      Sent “signed for” letter to Court Enforcement Services requesting Bodycam copies for both employees

                                Document 15: letter to Court enforcement services 060919

                                Royal Mail has it as lost, I suspect they are hiding behind PO Box

 

27th Sept 2019    I have completed 2 letters as below, just waiting for printer ink to arrive

                                Court Enforcement Services letter to be sent Royal Mail registered

 

Document 16: letter to Court enforcement services 270819

Document 17: letter to Information Commissioner’s Office 270819

 

 

Outcome:

 

This has cost us £5167.73 because we had to take a drawdown from pensions and so had to pay an additional 20% Income Tax on the original sum

I have also spent at least 95 hours of my time on this, my hourly rate is £19.00

 

How can they get away with treating people of any age in this disgusting manner

 

They need to be stopped.

 

How can we get our money back ?

 

As we have no knowledge of this debt we do not know if it is a credit agreement that is regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 Original Creditor did not reply to my question on this. These were the people who took out original CCJ

 

I understand that the CCJ is now over 6 years old but was just under that when the HCEO’s arrived

Following is the complaint letter I sent to court Enforcement Services Limited in Loughton:

                                                                                                                                                                                Address

                                                                                                                                                                                Postcode

                                                                                                                                                                                16th May 2019

 

 

Court Enforcement Services Limited

PO Box 396

Loughton

Essex

IG10 9GL

 

Your ref:

 

Dear Sir

This letter is an official complaint against the actions of your company and employees following a visit to my home on 21st February 2019 at 20:25 hours.

The grounds on which I base my complaint are as follows:

1. Neither my wife or my name is ********* and the DEBT IS NOT OURS and never has been

2. The addressee of the “Notice of enforcement” document does not live at this address and has not done so for about 18 months. He works abroad and I don’t know where he lives..

3. It was obvious that only one of the bedrooms was occupied by anyone and that is by me and my wife.

4. We are both elderly pensioners and were treated in a very discourteous manner.

5. They were going to take my work laptop which contains sensitive information and is owned by HP. I said I would have to put a hammer through it to destroy the hard disc. They said they are calling the Police and as asked them to go ahead and get them here. The Police did not turn up and I guess they lied about calling them.

6. We were bullied and intimidated into paying this money even though it was not our debt.

7. One of the men on entry told me if I had not let them in, they were entitled to break in. He obviously has not read https://www.gov.uk/your-rights-bailiffs

8. I got our son on the phone and the conversation with your employee lasted about 5 seconds, consisting of “Are you going to pay” in an aggressive manner to which our son replied “I don’t have the money” your employee said “I am not talking to you” handed me back the phone.

9. Our possessions were taken outside our home and no list was made or made available to us. I showed them the receipt for the TV and they said it does not have the serial number so it could be any TV, The receipt was very make and model specific so their comment was rubbish.

10. My wife was reduced to tears by your disgraceful behaviour and she unbeknown to me phoned our son-in-law to come and sort it out.

11. He came over from his home and your employees insisted on all the money being paid, which he did. The amount he paid was £4308.11

12. I calculate the amount as follows

Debt                                                      £2489.77              the sun of £2487.52 is incorrect

Interest                                                                         0.52

Compliance stage fee                         90.00

1st Enforcement stage                       228.00

7.5% of £1489.77                               111.73

VAT on 1st Enforcement stage           22.34

Total                                                      £2942.36

HOW DO THEY MAKE IT NEARLY £1400 MORE?

13. An Indian sandstone paving slab was broken and dislodged by your employees driving a large American style pickup truck onto my drive.

14. This was also parked on and across my disabled neighbour’s drive who has had a number of hospital visits recently

 

I require the following to be repaid to me:

The sum of £4308.11 taken by your employees

Plus 20% of the sum paid which is income tax I had to pay on drawing ad-hoc income from my pension, which is £861.62

I have taken 80 hours of my time on this and as I do high level consultancy work on computers I charge £40.00 per hour. I will forgo this £3200.00 if MY money is repaid within 30 days

Total if paid within 30days of date of letter £5169.73

 

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

 my name

CC:         People who took original CCJ out

 

 

My thoughts on this are:

I should sue the creditor who took out the original CCJ and High Court Writ as they were the ones responsible for the actions of the HCEO’s

Or

I should try to get my Son in Law to get the payment clawed back from the Bank

 

Your help and advice would be most appreciated

[AndyOrch]

Well it certainly wont be a CRA AGreement .....from the following link it appears to be Training Courses/Tuition fees.

 

https://www.colchester.ac.uk/

[brassnecked]

Another OTT CES Enforcement, might be worth Bailiff Advice looking this one over, as far as CES are concerned might be GDPR breach for them disclosing details to Third Party, a letter to Original Creditor might be worth it.

[PRG70]

Dear Brassnecked

Thanks for reply, that's an interesting angle as the two HCEO's that came to our home told us all the information on the Notice of Enforcement even before they came into the house and showed us their ID's. Also they did not show me the Certificate. This has to be a breach of the ICO rules for Data GDPR.

Who are Bailiff Advice that you mentioned in your post.

I am looking at getting my Son-in-Law to reclaim the payment citing duress from his bank.

or

Suing Original Creditor through the small claims court

I would be grateful of anymore advice

Kind regards

Pat

 

[brassnecked]

Might be an idea to hang fire a while  on suing original creditor until more advice on your thread.

[Bailiff Advice]

Unfortunately, I did not see your initial post until just now. I do apologise. 

I will respond in more detail later on when I finish work. In the meantime, I would like to make two points:

 

As payment was made 6 months ago, I would be very surprised indeed if the bank would entertain a 'charge back' application from your son in law. 

 

Secondly, on the important subject of GDPR, can I suggest that the moderators REMOVE some information that YOU have publicly disclosed regarding your son. In your initial post you refer to a problem that your son had in his early 20's. Secondly, you have provided the name of the company who obtained a County Court Judgment against him. 

 

PS: Your post has once again highlighted WHY individuals who are not the debtors should NOT allow a bailiff (or High Court Enforcement Officer) into their homes. 

[Bailiff Advice]

1 hour ago, Bailiff Advice said:

 

PS: Your post has once again highlighted WHY individuals who are not the debtors should NOT allow a bailiff (or High Court Enforcement Officer) into their homes. 

Can I just make clear that my above comment is in no way meant to be critical of you.  This forum is a very popular one indeed, and my post is intended for future visitors who may have received correspondence from an enforcement company and wish to know whether or not they should allow a bailiff (or High Court Enforcement Officer) entry into their home. 

Edited September 30, 2019 by Bailiff Advice