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    • thats the point of a LBL!!…. they DONT need any court approvement to enforce it..   as long as the bill of sale has been correctly registered  there is quite frankly stuff and all you can do to prevent losing your car. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?452164-Log-Book-Loan-Guidance&p=4791345#post4791345 from my notes. [prob same as above! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> logbook loan repossessions are not always legal,  . if linked to a CCA agreement or if the BOS has not been registered with the high court. . If BOS registered then yes they can reposses,  but have to show registration and debt details. Registration  A bill of sale can only be enforced if it was properly registered.  Since this is an expensive and difficult process,  it is rare that this actually happens.  However, failure to register the bill of sale renders it void,  and so renders any security on goods void. .  Consequently, before allowing any creditor to gain possession of your goods,  ask to see a registered copy of the bill showing the supreme courts seal. .  You can also call the national debt line, and ask them how to search the registry yourself. .  Also a valid DN must be issued. . If linked to a CCA then can not reposses if on private property without a court order  ( but can if on public road and under a third has only been paid ). . Over a third, they need a court order wherever it is. . check for...[BOS] . Not Registered With The High Court In 7 Days not registered AT ALL!  . Credit Agreement Details Not On The Bill Of Sale You should also check that the name on the registration documents  matches the name of the person who signed the BOS On occasions these cars get sold on several times . how to check: . email:QBEnforcement@hmcts.gsi.g ov.uk.[no spaces] . ring:020 7947 7772  . write: QB Enforcement Section,  Room E15-E17,  Royal Courts of Justice,  Strand, London, WC2A ... . ideally you need the BOS number . however they can search by the Reg Number . ...............  also see: http://www.fca.org.uk/firms/firm-types/consumer-credit/consumer-credit-research/logbook-loans ..... Do you have a problem with a Logbook Loan?  With Citizens advice estimating that over 60,000 of these loans were taken out in 2014 alone  an increasing number a causing severe difficulty and distress for borrowers. .  In this guide we explain what a logbook loan is, and how they work.   What you can do if you have a repayment problem,  and what you can do if you have unknowingly bought a car with a logbook loan attached. .  Three golden rules for Logbbok Loans .  1)No matter how desperate you are to purchase a car, or raise cash,  NEVER consider this type of Finance  These loans are designed purely for the benefit of the lenders.  With APRs of 400+%, little consumer protection, and aggressive debt collectionicon practices  they should be avoided at all costs. .  2)When purchasing a used car from whatever source,private or trade,  ALWAYS do a FULL GENUINE HPI CHECK costing around £20,  these come with a guarantee against any form of existing finance, including lbl's .  3)If you have any problem with a Logbook Loan,  your first step is ALWAYS to check that the Bill Of Sale has been registered  with the High Court. You can do this here- .  to check if registered .  Contact Details .  QB Enforcement Section  Room E15-17  Royal Courts of Justice  Strand  London  WC2A 2LL  DX 44450 Strand .  Telephone: 020 7947 7772  Fax: 0870 324 0024  Email: QBEnforcement@hmcts.gsi.g ov.uk .  You may read on the internet that your BOSicon will be void if witnessed by your lbl lender .  Since the OFT( as was) lost the attestation case on appeal by 2 to1 this is NOT the case .  full details here http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup...method=boolean .  Logbook loans are a form of credit dating back to the Victorian era,  derived from the 1878/1882 Bills Of Sale Acts, with terms and conditions to match in many cases. .  Problems are many fold from extortionate charges by lenders for calling a customer,  to repossessions where owners have been left at the side of a busy road,  unable to get to work, and even sexual harassment via debt collection. .  Poor practices abound, unsurprising when there is no incentive for lenders  to ensure their customers understand the terms or can afford the repayments.  In fact the very nature of this form of finance could be seen to encourage bad behaviour  – why carry out affordability checks if a single missed payments means you get to keep   the money and takeaway the car? . .  How does it work? .  When you take out a logbook loan you will be asked to hand over your vehicle’s logbook  or vehicle registration document, which proves you are the registered keeper of the vehicle. .  You’ll also have to sign a credit agreement and a form called a ‘bill of sale’.  This means the lender now owns your vehicle on a temporary basis  but you are still able to use it so long as you meet all loan repayments.  . These documents are recognised by law in England, Wales and Northern Ireland  but are not used in Scotland. .  The law only recognises a bill of sale if the lender registers it with the High Court.  If it’s not registered, the lender must get a court’s approval to repossess your vehicle.  . You should check if the bill of sale is registered. .  What you should do if you have a repayment problem .  1) check your Bill Of Sale is registered as above .  2) the lender must send you a default notice which complies with the requirements of s87(1)cca1974 .  allowing you fourteen clear days to remedy any default (which can be after one missed payment) .  You should , if your lender will not negotiate a reduced payment, straight away on receipt of the dn .  look to take out a time order. This gains you the protection of the court, which can look into the overall loan-- https://www.nationaldebtline.org/EW/...t/Default.aspx .  What you can do if you have purchased a car with an existing logbook loan .  If you receive a letter threatening to repossess the car or an enforcement officer  turns up at your home to take it, you may not be able to stop them.  . •ask to see proof of their identity and their authorisation to take the car •ask to see the bill of sale document – they have to show you this if you ask for it •if you feel threatened by how an enforcement officer is behaving, call the polic •ask for written confirmation of what has been taken •get the contact details for the logbook loan company. . If the lender has taken your car, you can try to get it back  and reclaim your money from the seller.  However, this can be a costly and time-consuming process and is not guaranteed to succeed. .  If you want to get the car back, you could pay off the outstanding loan  and then take the person who sold you the car to court, to try to get your money back.  .  If you just want to get your money back, you can take the person who sold you the car to court.   Always get independent advice before you decide to take someone to court. .  Some lenders are members of the consumer credit Trade Association (CCTA),  which has a code of practice covering logbook loans.  The code of practice says the lender must register the logbook loan on a register,  so it will show up when you carry out a history check on the car.  It also says they must obey certain rules when they repossess a car. .  If you are unhappy with the way a logbook loan lender or its enforcement officers have behaved,  find out whether they are a member. If so, you can complain directly to the CCTA. However this code is regularly ignored . http://www.ccta.co.uk/content/our-code.aspx .  Finally both the Financial Conduct Authority and the Law Commission are investigating  Logbook Lending  and the associated legislation,  full details here-- . http://www.fca.org.uk/firms/firm-typ.../logbook-loans . http://lawcommission.justice.gov.uk/...ls-of-sale.htm . for anyones info, you must act immediately on receipt of a default notice . What you should do if you have a repayment problem .  1) check your Bill Of Sale is registered as above .  2) the lender must send you a default notice which complies with the requirements of s87(1)cca1974  allowing you fourteen clear days to remedy any default (which can be after one missed payment) .  You should , if your lender will not negotiate a reduced payment, straight away on receipt of the default notice look to take out a time order. This gains you the protection of the court, which can look into the overall loan-- . https://www.nationaldebtline.org/EW/...t/Default.aspx Bills of Sale Act does not apply in Scotland, just to reassure you from the Money Advice Service *Taking out a logbook loan in Scotland*   In Scotland, ‘bills of sale’ cannot be used as security and are not legally binding.   Lenders in Scotland are therefore likely to be operating under different credit arrangements.   If the logbook loan is a ‘hire-purchase agreement’ or a ‘conditional  sale’, your consumer rights and protection under the Consumer Credit Act  1974 will apply. . worth a read http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?472038-ACF-THe-funding-Corp-illegal-repo-now-DCA-Chasing-loan&p=4972172#post4972172 . dx  
    • Can someone please help. I received a money claim and the trial is coming very soon. The claimants are the landlord, sent out a late payment warning letter in 2016, no warning letter has been received since.  I received a money claim against me in December 2018 without a letter before action.  The claimant is claiming breach of contract and they have submitted an agreement with their claim form that I think is invalid because it was created in 2015. We have a newer agreement that was signed in 2016 but the claimants have always denied this.  Today on their witness statement, they have attached this agreement date 2016. Would this make the 1st agreement invalid and would this be enough to get the claim thrown out of court? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you! 
    • Oh dear - Report it as stolen - You better give it to them or else... However if you can tell - I am being sarcastic...    So - Affordability is a prime concern but with LBL - Because they are secured - It is very hard to do a IRR Lending complaint unless they seriously overvalued the car.  What are the amounts they are talking to you about? (Figures)   I dont think there is much they can do apart from enforce through court proceedings for repossession. Thats the only way I think but dont quote me on that...  If there treatment of you has been detrimental and caused sever mental health issues then you can complain to the FOS and also you will be afforded time to come up with a repayment plan.    Where is the Vehicle stored at the moment?
    • I've received a cheque from CS for the loan PPI - £2,238.72. Banked and will give a CAG donation once it clears. Thanks guys.    Also received a reply to the Credit Card PPI that I had queried. 8 weeks since my letter and they have written that due to the high volume of complaints it's taking longer than expected to respond. They expect another 8 weeks to respond of close the complaint. 
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xmashelp

Builder demanding deposit after cancellation

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Hi all
I am a new poster to the forum but have been viewing for a while.
I am in a difficult situation and am wondering if anybody is able to provide me with any guidance.

Briefly the situation is as follows;
I obtained a number of quotes from building firms in June 19 for full renovation and some structural work in my kitchen. I agreed to proceed with one of the builders following his quote. He subsequently sent through a draft contract and expressly demanded payment of a deposit (approx £2k - 10% of total cost) to be paid in advance of the planned start date in August. A few days after receiving the contract I had 2-3 emails demanding immediate payment of the deposit to secure the dates as they had been apparently turning down plenty of work for the planned time slot. After approx 12-13 days of receiving the contract by email I decided to terminate the contract in writing and released the booked slot as I felt I was being pressured in to making an immediate payment plus I felt their manner was aggressive.
Following this I received a nasty email accusing me of wasting their time and that they would suffer financially etc. I declined to reply and heard nothing for a while.
Since then I have engaged a different builder to do the work which has started. A few weeks ago I received a letter from the original builder demanding full payment of the £2k deposit. I responded saying that I had exercised my right to cancel and nothing is due as they have not provided any services. They are now threatening court action and obviously I am very stressed about how far they can take this and whether I will be liable to pay them.
Any help would be gratefully received.
Many thanks
Suz

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You say that what you received was a "draft contract". What makes you say that the contract was "draft"?

You say that you terminated the contract in writing "approximately" 12 to 13 days of receiving it. Please could you be precise about the number of days. An approximation is completely unhelpful here. Once you give us the exact number of days, please will you explain why you are so certain that it is that number.

Please could you post up a draft contract in scanned PDF format

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10 hours ago, BankFodder said:

You say that what you received was a "draft contract". What makes you say that the contract was "draft"?

You say that you terminated the contract in writing "approximately" 12 to 13 days of receiving it. Please could you be precise about the number of days. An approximation is completely unhelpful here. Once you give us the exact number of days, please will you explain why you are so certain that it is that number.

Please could you post up a draft contract in scanned PDF format

Hi the draft contract was sent to me by email on 20 June. The email stated that ii is a draft contract and that a deposit would be required to secure the dates I wanted. Subsequent to this on 24 June I admittedly stupidly responded that I wanted to secure the dates and would pay the deposit. They sent through an invoice on 27 June for payment and 2 follow up emails on 1 and 2 July demanding that the deposit be settled ASAP. On 3 July I notified them that I did not want to proceed and that they could release the dates for other bookings.

I have already tried telling them that I should have been notified of cancellation terms at the pre-contract stage and that I was cancelling during the cooling off period (14 days). They have said that the cooling off period is not valid.
I realise I should have not changed my mind and wasted some element of their time but I felt pressured in to agreeing to the deposit as they kept emphasising that slots were being filled quickly etc and that I need to book up now. I pulled out with out paying the deposit because I thought they were pressurising me too much to pay immediately. I am very stressed by the entire experience.

 

I can try to upload the 'draft contract' but probably not until tomorrow as need access to a PDF scanner

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Please will you tell us the name of the builders.

 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/29/made lays out the circumstances in which you lose your right to cancel and off premises contract. I don't see anything here which says that you are not entitled to use the 14 day cooling off period.

I suggest that you email the building immediately and ask him on what basis he says that you are not entitled to a cooling off period. Tell him that if he will not explain this to you then you will not engage in any further communication with him.

In any event, and off premises contract must contain at least the following information – meaning that the supplier of the services must provide you with the following information

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/schedule/2/made  

 

Please check your contract and any other messages you have received on paper or by email and see whether together it can be said that you are provided all of this information. If you were not provided with this information then the cooling period doesn't even begin to run. To all intents and purposes the contract is not complete yet.

On the basis of the dates that you have provided to us it would appear that you have exercise your right to cancel just within the 14 day period and so therefore your cancellation is good. It seems to me on the basis of what you have told us that you are being bullied and browbeaten by these people.

If it is correct that they haven't given you any details about the right to cancel then they are potentially committing an offence and once they have explain to you why you don't have the benefit of a cooling off period, you could then reply to them and warn them that by failing to include all of the information in schedule two – but particularly information as to the right to cancel, they are committing an offence. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/19/made

 

Once you are satisfied that you are on secure ground, I would suggest that you write and tell them to do the other thing and that you will be happy to see them in court where you are sure that the judge will be very interested also to see the way they have behaved against you.

Please let us know the name of the builders and also once you are sure of your ground I suggest that you start putting reviews up on trust pilot and Google and elsewhere.

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Hi

Thanks for your reply. I have discussed this with citizens advice and they have taken details of the builder and reported them to trading standards who will take appropriate action. The builders claim that as the draft contract was sent over by email and I had time to think it over before deciding there is no cooling off period in this case.

 

When sending the draft contract they do not cover any details relating to cancellation rights or any of the details required in the legislation above as they are claiming it should be treated as 'on premises' and therefore my consumer rights do not exist.

 

I prefer not to give their name on a public forum at the moment but they are certainly not making my life easy at the moment. They are threatening to sue me for breach of contract if i do not pay up in 14 days.

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Please monitor this thread for a reply tomorrow.

however you are wrong not to give the builders name. It won't do you any harm that it may help and it will certainly help others.

Don't imagine that trading standards will take any action. They won't

 

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Firstly, we better dispel a bit of the mythology about trading standards.

A few years ago you could contact trading standards directly and lodge a complaint and they would take notice. Nowadays – particularly since the 2009 crisis – there have been huge cuts in budgets everywhere. Organisations have been closed down including the O F T and consumer focus. The bulk of the work has been given to Citizens Advice but without the necessary increases in budget.

There is now no longer any direct access to trading standards. Also, trading standards is by and large an organisation which is fragmented into local authority areas which to my mind means a huge amount of duplication of resources so the whole thing is very inefficient. When you are dealing with problems with say, local builders, it's not so bad but when you are dealing with Internet problems – fraud and so forth then trading standards are really quite inadequate to the task.

As I say, there is now no longer any direct access to trading standards. When you report something to citizens advice, they entered into a database with the millions of other reports and if the appropriate local trading standards takes notice then you are a very lucky person. As far as I can gather you need lots of complaints about the same company before you can get them to start beginning any kind of investigation.

If you think that the citizens advice report will attract any attention from trading standards then you are kidding yourself.

Social media is far more effective for these companies because it hits their reputation immediately. I don't know what benefit you think there might be from protecting their reputation by not publishing the name here. It doesn't help you and it doesn't help other potential victims. It means that this company will be able to go on treating other people in exactly the same way and the majority of those people won't be lucky enough to find this forum and they will simply believe what they are told by this company and allow themselves to be taken for a ride. By withholding the name of this company you become complicit in this.

Still if you think that there is some advantage to you then please let us know what it is. I'm very curious.

I have already said that you are entitled to a cooling off period and I have given you the sources of the legislation which deals with that. I imagine you have already had from this thread for more information which you have had from citizens advice. Citizens advice are okay for some things but by and large the best you can say of them is that they are – well-intentioned.

Have you follow any of the advice that I gave you in my previous post number four?


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And just to continue the trading standards rants a little bit longer, here are some examples of cases which were far more significant than your one (I'm afraid) and caused far more damage and yet despite the fact that they were reported to trading standards multiple times, both to citizens advice and also directly to trading standards through my own contacts, nothing was done until it was too late.

Harvill Shaw – who ran various wall rendering companies over a period of years, folding each one up after a couple of years leading victims behind. It took about six years before the matter was properly looked at by trading standards and Harvill got two years in prison. However, hundreds of people were left out of pocket and with their properties damaged as a result of his poor workmanship and his lack of truth in respect of lifetime guarantees and work being insurance backed. https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/investigate-caught-in-a-web-of-lies-510928  https://hendersonlawyers.co.uk/2019/08/05/render-exterior-wall-coatings-director-imprisoned/

Cash4phones – this company advertised very good prices for used telephones – but the problem is you got a quote/offer for your phone over the phone and then when you sent your telephone into them, you either never received your money or else you are told that the condition of your phone with so poor that only a fraction of the promised value could be paid to you. If you protested then very often your telephone was returned to you but by that time it had a broken screen and you were told that that was the condition in which it had arrived. Tens of thousands of these telephones went missing. Nobody was ever prosecuted but the company eventually went into liquidation. I think something like 10,000 telephones were unclaimed and were eventually sold off for almost nothing – amazingly to the people who had owned the company – who so far as I can understand all ended up in Cyprus. Trading standards had been made aware of this for years and yet did nothing about it. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/jan/09/cash4phones-files-bankruptcy

 

Future comms – Future Communications Specialists Ltd – recently gone into liquidation, left hundreds and maybe thousands of customers shortchanged and many of them in debt as a result of promises of rebates and termination fees to be paid when they moved their mobile phone service business to O2. The company was run by Lewis Tribble and Joseph Mark Stickler who by all accounts are now working for another communications company in the Portsmouth/Gosport area. This company was reported very often to citizens advice and also directly to trading standards through my own contacts – and yet nothing was done. Now the company is in liquidation and there are rumours – needs checking – that the boys are still driving around in fancy cars.   https://www.google.com/search?q=future+comms&oq=fu&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j35i39l2j69i60l3.14959j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#lrd=0x4874679ceafead69:0x8e11490fb9ce7dc,1,,,  https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-hampshire-49573148

 

I'm afraid that whilst consumer organisations have been closed down or remain underfunded, the only way to limit the activities of these people, to spread awareness of rights and to protect your fellow consumers is by the use of social media.

Do you still want to protect your builders?

 

 

 


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I can assure you that I am not trying to protect my builders but given their bullying nature am wary of causing further aggravation which could incite physical or other threats if I do not meet their demands.

 

I appreciate your advice and will take this further as advised.

 

Thanks for your help.

 

 

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I'm afraid that is your kind of attitude that brings comfort to these kinds of people.


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contract law is heavily based around the term performance of or to a contract. the builders havent actually done anything and cant perform their side of the bargain until you pay up. waht do they intend to do after you pay them this 2 grand, come round and do up your kitchen? No, so they cant (or wont) perform their side of the bargain so arent owed any money.

Thety may be miffed about being messed around over this but that it mostly of their own doing anyway. If you had paid them the 2 thou and then changed your mind about the work they may have a case for keeping the money but ultimately the contract here isnt formed due to you not handing over the money.

 

personally I wouldnt trust a firm that asks for money up front, you agree to pay in stages for a big job so for exampkle if the refit was expected to take a month you would probably expect to pay £5k after a fortnight, the same agin after another week and the remaining 50% upon completion.

the alternative is that they ask you to buy in the bulk of the materials based on a list they provide beforehand so they have limited exdpenditure and there is no argument over who owns what

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