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not sure what you are sweating over?:noidea:

 

you don't have the agreement so wouldn't have agreed to mediation anyway.....

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Quite correct.

the spirit is to give them time 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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7 hours ago, blondiegirl said:

Should he just ignore this and use it as 'evidence' where he was trying to be helpful and accommodating etc but that the Mediation Service say that Idem say it's not suitable for mediation??

 

This is nothing to worry about, so don't get hung up on it. If they have a rock solid case, you'd be better off trying to avoid court anyway - and if it's a bit  shaky, then mediation was never going to work.

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  • 2 months later...

a letter came from the Court advising of a March hearing date.

I'll crack on and prepare over February ready to send it all in.

 

However, pretty much at the same time, Idem have written and enclosed all their 'evidence' against this, which has now got me very worried - have we done the right thing?? 

 

Do I scan it all and post, or summarise it? I'm worried that this has put us on shaky ground.

 

For example, they've enclosed the (already seen) application form, an old MBNA credit card statement, mention payment plan with CCCS, various letters etc which, in reality, all point towards a debt as well as copies of various old documents. 

 

Is this normal practice for Idem?

They certainly seem to be going for it with all guns blazing.

What's the worst case scenario in this?

- BlondieGirl

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its quite normal for idem

they always threaten, bluff, word things carefully making it seem like the defendant has no choice but to give in if the letter is not read properly .

 

no signed agreement - an application form devoid of most of the prescribed terms for it to be an enforceable CCA.

no default notice from the OC

statements are not from MBNA

 

think all of the above has been explained numerous times here

 

 

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Idem also sent me an envelope that was an inch thick supposedly full of documents that they were going to use as evidence against me ........

 

everything you mentioned in post 155 was there on paper according to idem and now that they have the evidence it would be better for both parties to avoid court and for me to sign up for a Tomlin order. 
After going through the documents apart from all the paper work that was printed out from idems own network, there was no

 

Signed agreement

No valid default notice

No termination notice

No statements from HSBC

No notice of assignment


As dx has stated in the post above, it is all designed to lead you into a panic and agree a payment plan with them and avoid court.

 

 

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Thanks both very much - every time something arrives in the post which is 'new' it's obviously stressful so to hear it's happened to others is reassuring.

 

Their letter states:

 

IDEM: Point 2 alleges non-compliance with pre-action protocol, specifically 5.1 and 5.2. The letter in accordance with the pre-action protocol was issued to you on 5 April 1029. You responded under cover of a letter dated 24 April 2019 enclosing the reply form which you requested further documents or information as "all documents including required necessary Default Notices". A response was issued to you on 13 May 2019 directly addressing the specific documents requested, being the default notice. The letter also requested you contact to confirm your further intentions, as is required with in the pre-action protocol. In the absence of a response, a further letter was issued to you on 3 June 2019 requesting contact be made.

 

This was my point 2: The Claimant has not complied with paragraph 5.1 of the PAPDC (Pre Action Protocol) and no exchange of information was disclosed. The claimant did not respond within the given 30 days pursuant to 5.2 of the PAPDC and proceeded to issue the claim irrespective pursuant to 5.2.It is respectfully requested that the Court take this into consideration pursuant to 7.1 PAPDC).

 

IDEM: The content of point 3 of your defence is noted wherein you state that you are unaware of the alleged debt, however we note at point 5 of your Defence you confirm you have received a copy of the agreement. For the avoidance of doubt this debt relates to a credit card  agreement which commenced within MBNA on or around 6 July 2000.

 

My point 3: Paragraph 1 is noted; I have in the past had financial dealings with MBNA on or about 2000. I am unaware of what alleged debt the Claimant refers to having failed to adequately particularise its claim, and have therefore sought clarity from the Claimant by way of a Section 78 request and a CPR 31.14 request.

 

(The above ^ doesn't confirm that I have received a copy of the agreement and I didn't confirm that I had it!??)

 

IDEM: Point 4 denies that you were served a notice of assignment. The required Notice was sent you on 23 November 2016 by first class to XXXX. The notices were returned as undeliverable and XXXX remains your address for service in these proceedings.

 

My point 4: 4. Paragraph 2 is noted but it is denied that I was ever served Notice of Assignment pursuant to sec 136 of the Law of Property Act 1925 at the time of the Assignment dated 06/10/2016.

 

(A copy of a letter from Moorgate dated 23 November 2016 was enclosed saying that the account has been bought by Idem. I have no idea if this letter was ever received. There's no letter from Moorgate or MBNA saying that the debt had been transferred.)

 

IDEM: Point 5 states that you are unaware of any service of a Default Notice by the original creditor, MBNA. You are aware that the Default Notice was issue yourself to XXXX by Idem dated 8 November 2018. A further copot of the Default Notice was issued to you under cover of a letter dated 13 May 2019 which was responding to your Pre-action protocol request for information.

We also note your contentions regarding enforceability of the agreement with your reference to the copy credit agreement you received following your request under section 78 of the Consumer Act 1974.

 

My point 5: Paragraph 4 is denied. I am unaware of any service of a Default Notice (s) pursuant to section 87 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 by the original creditor MBNA. I have sought verification from the claimant regarding this matter and they have been unable to comply.

 

In response to my section 78 request for the MBNA agreement, an application form, which refers the applicant to sign and return the agreement. It is barely legible  and was provided along with a reconstituted version which is void of an account number or date to which it supposedly refers to. Both of which are pre-April 2007 credit applications and therefore unenforceable pursuant to sections 61.1 a/b/c.and 65.1 and sections 127.1.

 

The claimant completely disregarded my CPR 31.14 request

 

(they enclosed the application form again, along with photocopies of t&c's which also refer to to the agreement. They also enclosed their letter with the Default Notice, dated 7th November (not 8th November as per above). No Default Notice was ever served by MBNA. They also enclose a copy of a credit card bill from MBNA dated August 2012).

 

IDEM: You refer in point 6 to the request made under CPR31.14. The documentation requested therein had previously been supplied to you. However, it is noted that you also submitted a request under section 78 Consumer Credit Act on the same day as your CPR 31.13 Request. A response to the section 78 was issued to you on 17 September 2019.

 

My point 6. It is therefore denied with regards to the Defendant owing any monies to the Claimant; the Claimant has failed to provide any evidence of assignment/balance/breach requested by CPR 31.14, therefore the Claimant is put to strict proof to:

 

(a) show how the Defendant has entered into an agreement ; and

(b) show and evidence the nature of any breach and service of Default Notice pursuant to sec 87.1 CCA974;

(C) show how the Defendant has reached the amount claimed for; and

(d) show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim

 

(so they still haven't proved the agreement was ever made, not provided a Default Notice from MBNA?)

 

IDEM: In respect of point 7 of your defence, you have been provided with regular statements of account both prior to and subsequent to the assignment of  this account. Payments have been received towards the account until May 10 2018 from you via your Debt Management Company, formerly known as CCCS.

 

My point 7: As per Civil Procedure Rule 16.5(4), it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed.

 

(still no credit agreement was supplied. They did enclose a copy of a letter dated 28 Jan 202 detailing a list of transactions & balance which states "this list of transactions is not issued in replacement of, or to represent, a formal regulatory statement" so isn't this pointless?)

 

IDEM: Finally, in point 8 you make the unspecified allegations that Idem has contravened the requirements of section 136 Law of Property Act 1925 and section 28A of Consumer Credit Act 1974. You are put to strict proof in respect of your allegations.

 

My point 8: On the alternative, as the Claimant is an assignee of a debt, it is denied that the Claimant has the right to lay a claim due to contraventions of Section 136 of the Law of Property Act and Section 82A of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

(how can I be put to strict proof when this whole thing isn't technically enforceable? They can't prove there's any agreement, so that's the proof?? I don't have the proof if that makes sense)

 

IDEM: There remains an ongoing obligation on the parties under the CPR to attempt to resolve the dispute and in this regard Idem is willing to consider a resolution by consent.

Should mutually acceptable payment terms be agreed, then these can be set out in a consent order, known as Tomlin Order, and this is filed with the Court for approval. Once approved by the Court the proceedings would be stayed ie, placed on hold, to allow the agreed to be undertaken. As this would be an agreement by consent, the document would not be  registered as a CCJ against you and Idem would be able to request a Judgement whilst the proceedings are stayed in accordance with agreed terms of the Tomlin order. A court fee of £100 is required to lodge a consent order and this would be added to the sum to be repaid.

 

Accordingly we invite your repayment proposals by phone or letter......etc etc phone numbers.

 

Please be advised that a Court Hearing Fee of £170 must be paid by Idem no later than 18 February 2020 and so any repayment agreement would need to be finalised by then. If no agreement can be reached between the parties, then the Court Fee will be paid and the matter will proceed to the hearing which has been listed by the court for 17 march 2020. 

 

And that's it (sorry for the long post). So we carry on, and hope to God we win. If we don't, is this then entered as a CCJ and we have to start paying it back? Any comments or advice please?

 

I still have no signed agreement

A Default Notice from Idem only

 

A printed letter stating notice to terminate your agreement dated 22nd November 2018 - this is just printed out, not on headed paper so not an exact copy. No idea if this was sent.

 

I do have 1 statement from MBNA enclosed from 2012

 

They claim the notice of assignment was sent from Moorgate in November 2016.

 

It's not headed up with 'notice of assignment'

- it says 'Dear Mr X, we are writing to advise you that your account, which we have been administering on behalf of Britannica Recoveries......has been purchased by Idem....". 

- BlondieGirl

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Hi,

I don't suppose anyone has had the time to read through the above please?

I would welcome any advice at this time please.

 

I know doing this has to take some courage, but I am getting quite despondent about it now and can't believe a judge would rule in our favour, given that it's pretty obvious we've had the money and spent it. 

 

Thanks very much in advance.

- BlondieGirl

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I know you like typing stuff out

but can we see this letter from idem please

one multipage PDF only please

read upload carefully...

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Now have scanner - I've attached the letter/s from Idem.

 

My questions/comments are above but I don't want to re-post and make more reading.

 

It's frustrating that they *still* keep going on about this agreement - and I certainly didn't confirm receipt of one!

 

I haven't scanned a credit card statement which they sent from MBNA dated Sept 2012 or their application form which I've uploaded before. They sent this in the same letter.

 

As I said before, I know doing this has to take some courage, but I am getting quite despondent about it now and can't believe a judge would rule in our favour, given that it's pretty obvious we've had the money and spent it. 

to upload.pdf

- BlondieGirl

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Can we also have a good scan of this alleged agreement  ?

We could do with some help from you.

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in a way its a begging letter IMHO.

but ofcourse as idem always do, they'll try and intimidate a defendant first before craftily offering a settlement OOC whereby they get something, to try and make you  think they are doing you a favour because they claim your defence is so weak they'll win hands down...when in all truth they know they don't stand a scoobies when everything is look at carefully.

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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9 minutes ago, Andyorch said:

Can we also have a good scan of this alleged agreement  ?

Here's the agreement which I've scanned before. Ignore page 1, but the application form and the following pages are what was enclosed in their latest letter.Scanned letter from Idem 19-09-2019.pdf

- BlondieGirl

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A copy of the original signed application form...and barely legible at that .You could rely on section 61 of the CCA that it is in fact illegible and that fact thats impossible to prove that the T&Cs provided are actually connected  or embodied in the application form .....which I doubt they were as they are not attached to an application form only the signed executed agreement once the application has been approved and processed.

 

 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1974/39/section/61

 

However...given that they have reproduced statement of accounts showing your involvement with DMPs (Stepchange) and historic regular payments really does weaken any defence...even with the dodgy application form...you would hope and be lucky to get a decent district judge to rule on that.

 

Therefore given your recent posts which convey your nervous and despondent position to proceed with the defence you may wish to possibly consider the Tomlin Order...but only you can make that decision.

 

Andy

We could do with some help from you.

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Thanks both for the reply.

 

I am not scared of going to court and I can hold my own. I know I am capable of that - if I am armed with facts.  I am not shy; I am intelligent and articulate and have had to fight my corner before, twice, and won (not in the world of finance however).

 

My hesitation has often been that I am not convinced I can win this, despite the 'encouragement' from everyone on here.

I have always provided all the information I have to questions on my threads on here, and have relied on advice given in reply (as well as my own reading) and to date have been following this process through with quiet hope with everyone's thoughts and comments.

 

I have always made my desperation clear at wanting to clean up our credit files which are well and truly holding us back (old car, can't get car finance therefore no work. Can't move - can't get a new mortgage etc etc) which is why I am now scared that we will get 2 CCJs and a heap load of debt reinstated with interest and charges for the foreseeable future. 

 

I believe that 'technically' nobody can enforce this without the 'correct' signed agreement - which still hasn't been supplied because it doesn't exist. But in reality that might not happen. I also know companies like Idem will do what they can to scare people so I have stood my ground so far.

 

I know that MBNA should have defaulted us and didn't - but who's ever going to backdate that?

I can stand there and argue that after all this time, I am not convinced that I know what the debt is for and we've followed some very bad advice (thanks Stepchage :-( ) and can repeatedly ask for a credit agreement in order for this to be enforced, but as I have never been to been in court for this, I don't know how it plays out or whether a judge would say "come on, it's obvious you've had this money so pay it back. Boom - CCJ)".

 

I can prepare a witness statement and still argue that there's no enforceable agreement (as I have been told to do so, so often on here) and hope. Or go back to where I was and start to be a "cashcow" again and be "fleeced" as I have been told so many times.

 

I'm no expert in this in any way, and nobody has a crystal ball, but even today, I seem to have been given 2 different opinions, and even though it's my decision, I'm not sure what to do and have about 4 days in which to make my next move.

 

 

 

- BlondieGirl

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Well not really.....dont let a claimant impose time deadlines..there a few more hurdles to cross yet and still avoid a CCJ.They impose the time limit because they have to pay the hearing fee by date and if they fail to their claim will be struck out.You can run this a little more to the line yet......past allocation ...past submission of statements and evidence...and still request whether a Tomlin  is still on offer.

 

The advice we offer in line with the current legislation CCA1974 is correct...in a perfect world.....and the judge acts and accepts the legislation....its not a case of "come on, it's obvious you've had this money so pay it back.  your not on trial to prove or disprove that..the claim is based on a credit agreement  a default  an assignment of debt and whether they have a legal right to enforce the agreement...and the fact that the Assignor (MBNA) have also followed due process.

We could do with some help from you.

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not being unkind, but it needs to be said.....

you are brilliant at following advice.....but then for some magical reason you sometimes add your bit in or don't do exactly as advised changing the goal posts and sending stuff out adapted and then we find out and have to start bailing you out...try and refrain from doing things off your own bat that shots yourself in the foot .

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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is the worst case that we turn up and the judge agrees with Idem that the money is owed -

  even though MBNA didn't provide

 a proper credit agreement and

neither did MBNA issue a default notice a few years ago?

 

will the judge then slap on a CCJ and we have to go back to paying into some sort of plan?

 

Other option,

enter into a Tomlin agreement (I have to look that up still so excuse my ignorance) and as a default notice was issued, after 6 years (5 more years) the debt won't show but we'll still carry on paying it back?

- BlondieGirl

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Depends on the quality of judge as already advised....so thats unknown.

Tomlin Order stays the claim...you make payments agreed no CCJ issued.

We could do with some help from you.

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Thanks dx100uk, that's a bit harsh.

 

I may not 'get it' from word go (this a whole baffling situation to be in) and I have no experience whatsoever, but I have only ever sent letters and carried out actions after advice on here, never doing my own thing or sending out anything 'adapted' or 'off the bat'. Lots of people have posted their letters on here, comments made and the letters subsequently changed.

 

I don't, and haven't, ignored advice; I am very grateful for the advice given on here. My only regret is that I didn't cease payments to Idem years ago, but I have now and am hoping for a positive outcome.

- BlondieGirl

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19 minutes ago, Andyorch said:

Depends on the quality of judge as already advised....so thats unknown.

Tomlin Order stays the claim...you make payments agreed no CCJ issued.

 

The default notice was issued just over a year ago so the debt will drop off in December 2023. A CCJ would run for a further 6 years which would 'lose' us another year which I'd hate to happen because the CCJ wouldn't disappear until March 2025. 

 

Question: if a Tomlin order were to be agreed with Idem, is there any 'bargaining' as part of the order over how our credit file is reported along with an offer of repayment, or is it purely whether they agree to the amount of monthly instalments we pay back (which is in effect an agreement so shouldn't this agreement be reported as being up to date)? I  issued a complaint to the Financial Ombudsman some time ago about how MBNA was reporting our account to credit reference agencies, our complaint was upheld, and MBNA was told that it had to change all the arrears/payment plan markers to showing it as being up-to-date so it's possible to change what's been reported.

 

If you say that the claim is based on a credit agreement, a default, an assignment of debt and whether they have a legal right to enforce the agreement, surely we stand a chance? There's no agreement, MBNA failed to issue a default notice so how is there a legal right to enforce it?

 

As I said, I'm not scared of going to court  but my main objective has always been to improve our credit files - I feel that we're stuck in limbo and it's not making an easy life. A CCJ will make things much worse, and for longer. But I have no idea if there's a 'good' chance  of winning and whether it's worth the risk going to court, or if we're skating on thin ice with all their 'evidence' whether there ever was an agreement or not. 

 

- BlondieGirl

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If you agree a Tomlin Order...which you can negotiate it terms and amounts...the claim is stayed...no CCJ no CJJ on credit file. The default marker for the alleged agreement is a separate issue and unconnected to the court claim..so you would have to deal with that separately ...i doubt very much they would agree its removal even if you agreed to a Tomlin Order.

We could do with some help from you.

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