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Stevie_T

Excel Windscreen PCN Claimform - Parked in a disabled space - MIDDLESBROUGH LIESURE PARK

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38 minutes ago, Stevie_T said:

sorry I don't understand your question

what I'm saying is that it would be my intention to take a print out of that PDF to the court to show the location of the signs and their content in relation to the route I traveled.

 

 

That comes later in the process....for now just complete the N180 and follow the instructions...dont attach anything or submit anything else with it.


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Oh I see what you mean

i wasn’t intending to attach it. But I will take it along to court.

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no..it forms part of your witness statement 

IF the claim get allocated to a court and you get an N157.

 

dx


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, DCA;s would collapse overnight.

 

 

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I have just received notification that the proceedings have been transferred to my local court

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No date yet mind?

start looking at pcn witness statements


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, DCA;s would collapse overnight.

 

 

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No date not yet set. 

 

 

 

Where can I view PCN witness statements. I ran a search on this forum but couldn’t find any

 

Back in early September I sent a request for information to EXCEL based on the advice given “CPR 31.14 Request to use on receipt of a PPC” - I have not received anything from Excel

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both you and they will have to exchange them by 14 days before the hearing date.

I suspect they will file early and that will have all their exhibits in it for you to pull apart.

 

use the custom google search box after hitting the top squares logo

vcs/pcn witness statement.


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, DCA;s would collapse overnight.

 

 

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I have a court date: 23rd March 2020 @ 10.30 am. 

claimant to pay trial fee £25 by 24th feb

Each party must deliver to the other party and to the court all documents on which they intend to rely no later than 14 days before the hearing

 

I have not been able to find examples of witness statements on this forum only discussions ABOUT witness statements.
I will start to draft my own and post it here for comment

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there are plenty of examples buried in threads regarding court claims.

 

I would have a good look at a few but generaly you are telling a story with a timeline but in the third person so the defendant is the keeper of the vehicle xx00yyy and on the xxth of month year the claimant issued a charge notice because it is claimed it was parked on property in a manner that breached a unilateral contract offered by way of signage there.

 

the defendant denies being the driver at the time and as the claimant has failed to follow the protocols of the POFA there is no keeper liability in this matter ( if applicable to your case- not if you appealed and coughed to driving at the time!)

 

then go on to say that the site is a single/multiple entrance car park and the entrance to the land frok the public highway has sigange exhibited as paper A in the annexe.

 

As can be seen, the signs are poorly sited so they cant be easily read by the driver passing them and the text is so small as to be illegible.

 

The colour of the text clashes, the font and caharcter size are mismatched so it is not possible to read it and clearly understand what is being offered and by whom.

 

the reference to disabled parking is confusing as there is no defined standard for private loand and the symbols used do not conform with accepted norms.

 

At the place the vehicle was parked there are no correct signs (see apaper B in annexe)

 

then go on to pick holes in what they have said so far and if they dont have planning permission for the signs and cameras then you make this clear and say that it is an offence under the Town and Country Planning Act 2007 and you cant enter into a crminal compact with the claimant even if you wanted to.

 

Use any axamples of previous persuasive case you can find for every point you raise

( entry to land/sign size/sign typeface-colour=size/confusing content and so on) and for any other point used

 

and so forth

 

the defendant denies they have any liabilty as the keeper and in any case you do not believe that they have the authority of the landowner to enter into contracts with the public and to make civil claims in their own name and put it yuo strict proof of the same

 

This is one way, there are other ways of laying it out

 

Once you have laid it out like that was will help you tweak

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OK thanks for that.

 

I have no prior correspondence with EXCEL and therefore have not admitted being the driver.

As it happens, I wasn't.

 

They have not responded to my initial request for documents and therefore I have no details on planning permission.

I guess I'll assume and assert that they haven't in the absence of them providing proof to the contrary.

 

Meanwhile, I've had a letter from EXCEL offering a reduced payment.

I will attach this.

 

I'm wondering whether I should ignore the letter or respond.

I will not accept the offer. 

 

steve_t.pdf

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they as well you will have to attach as exhibits any relevant document/photos you or they intend to rely upon in a WS bundle

 

you shouldn't have been sitting on your hands to date

get onto the relevant council's webportal planning section and find out:

 

what stipulations were on the original grant of planning permission with regard to on site parking

have excel in their own name [not VCS] planning permission for their signs , cameras and poles.

 

does excel have a current, paid for this year contract with the land owners to manage parking.

 


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, DCA;s would collapse overnight.

 

 

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Their idea that they will take their £125 reduction letter to prevent  you claiming costs is laughable. They have so many things wrong with their claim that they ha"ven't a hope of getting £1 far less £125.

 

Going back to your post 45,

you only showed two of their notices,

neither of which are apparently their T&Cs according to the notice numbered 5.

It also doesn't say that not paying will result in extra charges being levied. 

 

It does say it on picture 2 but that is not their T&C notice.

That notice on 2 is confusingly worded.

"Anyone parking in a blue bay and leaving/walking off site will result in an immediate issue of a parking charge notice."

 

Does that mean it is only those parking in disabled spots that cannot leave the site.

Or does it mean that anyone parking in a blue bay, and anyone going off site is liable to get a PCN?

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thread tidied.

 

in short its a begging letter.

probably indicating they know they've stuffed things up

but are hoping you don't and swallow their guff 

 

so as post 61 get researching..

 

 


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, DCA;s would collapse overnight.

 

 

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Do I reply to their letter or not 

 

If yes, how's this

==============================

Dear Sir/Madam

 

I refer to your letter  of dd/mm/yyy ref - their ref

 

You do not have a strong case against me. I have a strong defense. I reject your proposal.

 

Yours faithfully

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no s in defence!

an no you don't reply to pointless letter tennis ever.

let them sweat.

 

 


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, DCA;s would collapse overnight.

 

 

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you ignore this begging letter.

 

Also yu check with the council about planning permission, if you cnat find it on the planning portal you ask the council planning dept about any applicatiosn for that address.

 

You cnat assume things but you can state that you do not belive they have the necessary contracts/permissions/consents because they have failed to provide them when requested under CPR 31.14

 

now there is a thing called Standard Disclosure for all civil proceedings (CPR 31.6) so they cant wriggle out of it so easily as that includes anything that adversely affects their case so if they wont produce their contract with the LL then you can say that you believe they have failed to do so because it aversely affects their case. they are then caught by the "when did you stop beating your wife" impossibility.

 

make sure that you have all documents you need to avoid them throwing it back at you but generally there wont be an equivalent if you arent the driver!

 

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I have made a start and will copy below. The images I refer to are attached. Although I have visited the site and taken pictures of the various signs I have decided the only one of importance to enter in defence is the one on the route that the vehicle took. We drove to Pizza Hut, parked, went inside and had a pizza. We did not take a tour on foot of the vast parking area. 

======================================================DEFENSE=================

 

The defendant is the keeper of the vehicle [REDACTED]  and [ CHECK DATE] the claimant issued a charge notice because it is claimed it was parked on property in a manner that breached a unilateral contract offered by way of signage there.

 

The defendant denies being the driver at the time and as the claimant has failed to follow the protocols of the POFA there is no keeper liability in this matter
 
On [check date] the defendant visited Pizza Hut with a party of friends. The defendant was not the driver of the vehicle. The vehicle traveled along North Ormesby Road, turned right onto Woodside Street and Sharp right into the parking area in front of Pizza Hut. This is the most obvious and direct route to Pizza Hut. The route of the vehicle is shown in image 1.

 

There were no signs pertaining to the claims of the claimant visible to the driver of the vehicle on the route described.

 

There were no signs pertaining to the claims of the claimant visible to pedestrians as the party left the vehicle and entered Pizza Hut.

 

Upon the receipt of the claim from the claimant, the defendant visited Pizza Hut once again to investigate. It was found that on the route the vehicle took described above there is one sign on the side of the Pizza Hut building and on the passenger side of the vehicle. The sign is small and unreadable from the vehicle. The location of this sign is indicated on image 2

 

A visual representation of this sign is represented in image 3. Note that this sign is on the side of the building and the passenger side of the vehicle.

 

The contents of this sign are shown in image 4. The wording does not form any kind of contract. No reference is made to disabled bays. It specifically mentions the issue of parking and walking off from the area which the defendant, the driver and the rest of the party did not do

IMAGE-1.pdf IMAGE-2.pdf IMAGE3.pdf IMAGE4.pdf

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you cant file image with a defence

that's for the witness statement stage IF the claimant runs it that far!

 

dx

 


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, DCA;s would collapse overnight.

 

 

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It's my witness statement I'm preparing. I'm laying out my description of events

 

 

Edited by Stevie_T

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sorry yes you are..

that's not bad but I think it needs work

have you got their WS yet?

 

 

 


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, DCA;s would collapse overnight.

 

 

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WS due by 16th march

and i'd await to see if they pay the fee on 24th first too.

you can research what yours might look like 

but it would be far better to pull theirs apart in your WS.

 

pers i'd forget about this and enjoy xmas and the new year

there nowt for you to do bar read up on PPC's till 24th feb then check with the court to see if they've paid the fee first....


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, DCA;s would collapse overnight.

 

 

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I've been mulling it over and decided to put some ideas down

someone earlier said I shouldn't be sitting on my hands

I'll not put the Witness statement in until I have to - see what they come up with

 

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2 hours ago, dx100uk said:

sorry yes you are..

that's not bad but I think it needs work

have you got their WS yet?

 

 

 

I missed this question. I know it needs work but I’m mapping it out and then I’ll chip away. I’ve not had their WS yet

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you wont get their WS until much nearer to the hearing, it is common to exchange 14 days before and VCS/excel usually do tiers before that so you get a couple of days to pick holes in it.

Dont use email for amything other than directly to court where you also use post to send the same thing as backup.

 

now as for signs, if there are different signs scattered about you can use that as evidence of confusing and contracdictory signs/offer. If you find a sign outside the car park that belongs to another company but it can be seen from inside the boundary us that as well. It helped defeat several claim s where adjacent land is managed by different companies and confusion arose duw to conflicting information.

It may not be your main thrust but anything that brings doubt is useful

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There is another sign to the right of the vehicle as it enters the area along Woodside Street.

This belongs to a different company but I would have to return to get the wording.

 

The fact is there is only one sign from EXCEL on the trajectory we took to Pizza Hut and that is only readable by returning on foot.

 

There are other signs dotted about of a contradictory and confusing nature.

On the evening in question these signs would only have been seen if we had taken a stroll around the car park before having dinner. Something we would be unlikely to do.

 

I only saw these signs on returning to investigate.

I'm not sure about mentioning these signs in my WS as they do not lie on the route I took.

I'm tempted to major on the wording of the ONE sign on the route we took and then to back that up with the issue of the signs visibility  or readability.

 

I wonder about the good sense of mentioning signs that were not on the route my vehicle took.

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