Excel Windscreen PCN Claimform - Parked in a disabled space - MIDDLESBROUGH LIESURE PARK

[ericsbrother]

E&W=England and Wales

 

for correct sign see TSRGD paper on disabled parking and within that fig 6. note layout and size

 

Whilst you are at it look at all of the suggested floor markings and bay sizes. The ones shown dont pass the regulations. That means they have fiale to meet planning regs.

 

So then we look at intent- now they will argue that the intent is clear but then as the layout, markings and signage fail to follow the code of practice they will be considered advisory (as they should be on private land). Can it be true that you can be sued for ignoring someones advice, esp when there isnt a contractual term that says anything about it in the first place?

 

In the fullness of time you will be copying this pdf and using it as evidence.

 

In the meanwhile you stick to the deadlines imposed by the court procedure and if they fail to pay the allocation fee in tiem you ask for the case to be chucked out.

 

At near the end of thsi month you post your outline defence via the moneyclaim portal and state that

 

(1) the claim is denied as there was no offer of a contractual term to breach in such a manner 

 

(2) the claimant has failed to show a cause for action against the defendant, being the keeper of the vehicle because they have failed to follow the protocols of the POFA so cannot create a keeper liability in this matter.  The claimant has failed to identify the driver at the time

 

(3) the Particulars of claim are so vague  it is impossible to determine what the claimant is actually relying upon to show a cause for action in terms of the location, date of event and how the the amount of the claim (sum of £160) was arrived at and particulary the signage they rely on to form a contract with the public.

 

The defendant invites the court to issue a Case management Order under CPR3.3 to instruct the claimant provide evidence that signage that expressly offers a contract exists as claimed and that this contract was then breached as the defendant believes that the claim has no reasonable grounds and is a waste of the courts resources and should be dismissed if such evidence is not produced.

 

the last point may well be ignored whislt the paperwork is processed at Northampton as they dont read much of it and it will only be read once it gets allocated to your local court so prepare to get as far as a hearing in any case.

 

[Stevie_T]

Thanks. I’ll put a date in my diary to enter my defense.  I’ll paste the points that you list. 

 

The County Court doc was dated 2nd Sept so served + 5 = 6th Sept

28 Days from then = 3rd Oct. 

[dx100uk]

4th by 4pm

 

[Stevie_T]

sorry what is "TSRGD paper"

just for clarification - when I enter my defence do I just post the three points above. Should I add any detail about the validity of the disabled bay? or should I hold that back

[AndyOrch]

https://tsrgd.co.uk/pdf/tal/1995/tal-5-95.pdf

[ericsbrother]

you have to do some research for yourself so you understand what it is you are talking about when (if) it gets to court.

 

Now my entire point of talking around the parking space and the lack of mention of it in their signage is so you give a brief reason for defending but dont allow them the opportunity to go there and change the signs/show a photoshop mock up and claim that their version is what was there all of the time.

 

CEL do this all of the time, PE and VCS/Excel do it quite often.

 

they are not honest so make them get to a point where they have to either drop the matter like a hot potato ir risk getting ripped to shreds in a court hearing

[Stevie_T]

I have been back to the location (Pizza Hut again) and found that their signs vary.

They are in various locations and there are different ways to enter the area meaning different people will see different signs.

 

It's debatable what is the actual entrance to the site as there are different ways in.

It's arguable that there is one way in whereby a driver would not see any signs.

 

Some signs are located such that the driver would have to look right or left to the sidewalk to see them.

I'm going to make a map and index of these varying signs.

 

 

I have entered my defence

[Stevie_T]

I have just received "Small Claims Directions Questionnaire"  (Form N180) which I must complete by Oct 18th.

 

1. It asks do I agree to the case being referred to the small claims mediation service - I'm assuming my answer would be no
2. do I agree that the small claims track is appropriate - I assume YES
3. at which court do I wish to appear and why - assume I find a local one - what reason would I give (I'm a poor pensioner)
4. Expert written Evidence - I assume NO
5. How many wittnesses - just me
   
    

[AndyOrch]

No to mediation in your particular claim.

 

Andy

[dx100uk]

You must research during downtimes

read any/all pcn claimform threads in the forum

[ericsbrother]

so where are the pictures of all these different signs ten? You will need them so dont tell us you havent taken any.....

[Stevie_T]

I have a comprehensive set of pictures.

The wording varies all over the car park.

 

I am annotating these and pin pointing them on a plan of the car park.

There is more than one entrance.

I will post these as a PDF shortly but I need to return (tomorrow) to check the location of one sign.

 

Attached is a plan of the area showing the entrances and the signs at each location.

There is more than one entrance and as my map shows I took the most logical route to arrive at Pizza Hut.

 

Taking that route to arrive at the last remaining parking spot I passed no signs that form any kind of contract.

Also you'll see there is quite a variety of wording on the signs.

 

 --->  ----> The route I took to the park at Pizza Hut

1 The main Road (Marton Road) two roads lead to the car park 10 & 11 (neither has signs)
2 Pizza Hut
3 Entrance to Pizzza Hut parking area (no signs) as you can see, again the only available bays are marked disabled
4 Sign by the side of Pizza Hut on the near side of passing vehicles  (no ref to disabled bays)
5 The bay where I parked
6 sign to the right of the entrance to pizza hut (a good way off) no ref to not using disabled bays
7 A slightly different sign only seen if entering at (10) - I entered at (11)
8 Large sign welcoming people
10 entrance from main road
11 entrance from main road

Middlesbrough_Leisure_Park.pdf

[lookinforinfo]

EB is right the sign you show doesn't say that you aren't allowed to park in disabled bays. It also doesn't say that you have to display a disabled badge. So  no offence occurred. It may well show on another sign but the one you saw didn't. And they cannot say that they have other signs displaying their T&Cs and stating that after 10 minutes you agree to those terms without ever having seen them! That is no way to form a  contract.

 

Off topic somewhat, but their sign about footballer ot town centre parking is just weird. How can they tell who is who and even if they could, why would it be lawful for them to be ticketed straight away rather wait the statutory 10 minutes?

[Stevie_T]

if you look at my route and parking position which is a perfectly logical route to Pizza Hut, I saw no signs at ll

[lookinforinfo]

That is correct. So you have at least two reasons to say that the offence did not occur as no contract was offered.

[Stevie_T]

I think I should compile a document and images that only refers to the route to park that I took and leave everything else out.

 

Even the signs in the vicinity that I photographed when I returned do not form a contract even supposing I had seen them whilst parking up at Pizza Hut

[dx100uk]

or highlight your route

[lookinforinfo]

Don't assume that just because you are right that Excel will agree with you. Although it does mean that if they continue to ask for money you can claim extra for wasting your time and the Courts. Not to mention a possible GDPR breach.

[FTMDave]

The "No Football Parking" had me in stitches!  About as clear as mud Simon.  What does it mean?  Can you go to the shops and then take your kid to schools football or will he ticket you?  Can you do your shopping dressed in a football top or is that one of his infractions too?  

[Stevie_T]

Attached is a PDF with images and a description of my experience of using that car park and visiting Pizza Hut.

 

I think this forms the basis of my defence.

 

Does anyone know if I need to mention this document in advance when I send in my Form 180 which I intend to do tonight.

 

Middlesbrough Leisure Park Pizza Hut.pdf

[dx100uk]

you've already filed your defence.

 

you don't ever include anything with an N180

 

no to mediation

1 wit you

the rest is obv.

 

3 copies

1 court

1 excel [minus email,phone/sig]

1 for your file

 

 

[Stevie_T]

not defence then "evidence"

[dx100uk]

Which for inclusion in???

[Stevie_T]

sorry I don't understand your question

what I'm saying is that it would be my intention to take a print out of that PDF to the court to show the location of the signs and their content in relation to the route I traveled.

[dx100uk]

correct.

 

but what part of the process would you do that under...

i'm trying to make you understand the court process as time progresses through a claim from day one to judgement..