Fraudulent eBay buyer - bought and collected item then reverses charges with bank against PayPal

[Krimbo]

Hello all

 

I am hoping someone has hada similar experience and could offer some help or guidance for me to get my money back from PayPal.

 

The story is as follows:

 

I am currently involved in a eBay/PayPal dispute regarding the sale of a Samsung Galaxy s10 PLUS mobile phone on eBay.

My item was bought and paid for on eBay and through PayPal on 31st July 2019 for £925.

The delivery method for this item was collection in person only and the person came and collected the device and left me positive feedback on eBay which stated “happy and collected”.

 

3 days after the transaction, the buyer opened a case on eBay stating that their account had been fraudulently used and they wanted a refund.

I attempted to contact the buyer but got no response at all and neither did eBay.

 

As they did not respond, eBay closed this case in my favour given they had left feedback on my account to say that they were happy and collected the item (this was evidence for eBay to close in my favour). I thought that this was a poor attempt of fraud from the buyer

 

since then they have instructed their bank to reverse charges against PayPal which has resulted in PayPal reversing charges against me.

I am now in - £925 on my paypal account.

 

I have been attempting to challenge this with all the evidence from the eBay transaction.

This included pictures of the sale item on ebay, feedback they left, phone calls that were made before collection. 

 

Paypal have now reviewed my case and have since told me that they will not cover me as a seller as I do not have a "proof of delivery receipt".

I told them that this is not what the buyer raised a dispute about on eBay as it was a supposed "unauthorised use and purchase of an item" through ebay.

 

The transaction on eBay was as mentioned above a collection only (which eBay actually cover under secure sellers policy as long as positive feedback is left which proves item collected). Paypal however do not accept this and they only work on the basis I have a delivery receipt or some sort of proof of delivery. 

 

I have been advised by PayPal to proceed to a small claims court but I have no experience in doing this and would like some advice on who I would raise the claim against in this instance.

 

My main questions and concerns to resolve are as follows:

 

My initial feeling is that it should be against the buyer however what if they are a genuine victim also of their ebay account being compromised?

If this is the case then should it be eBay? 

 

My problem here is since eBay in their eyes have resolved the case by closing in my favour would it then be PayPal?

The problem with PayPal is I am worried that due to their seller policy I would lose as they have it written on their website quite clearly.

 

eBay - have closed case in my favour and cannot help with reversed charges

PayPal - cannot cover the reversed charges without proof of delivery receipt

Buyer - they have their refund of £925 through their bank. Will not respond to any comms

Seller (me) - I now do not have the item, or the payment of £925.

 

I have been left victimised by both eBay and PayPal and neither of them wish to work together or take responsibility for this  (possible) fraudulent buyer.

 

Any help would be much appreciated.

 

cheers

 

[dx100uk]

std case of fraud.

nothing PP nor ebay can do to you.

 

remove ALL funding methods from your PP dashboard if you can.

 

ring and then WRITE BY ROYAL MAIL to YOUR BANK [or any other bank listed on your PP dashboard]

tell them they are NOT to honour ANY payments to Paypal by ANY method

this includes Continuous Payment Authorities

and Direct Debt.

 

unless you write giving a new authority 

 

simply open a new ACCOUNT with PP with differing details.

 

their business model is designed to absorb these losses.

 

[Krimbo]

Many thanks for your quick response.

 

I have already taken measures to stop PayPal removing the funds by cancelling my direct debit, blocking my debit card they have on file and ringing Nationwide (who I bank with) to explain the situation and asked them to ensure no money is debited by PayPal.

They record phone calls so I am sure I am covered in that sense i guess.

 

My issue is I still need to fight this case as PayPal will no doubt attempt to instruct debt collectors to try and retrieve the money from me.

[dx100uk]

there is nothing PP nor any DCA can do to you or your credit file

PP don't do court

and don't sell debts on.

 

they ran away to Luxembourg  to avoid uk tax laws

tough for them.

 

dx

 

[Krimbo]

Hi

 

thanks for the reassurance. Have you had any first hand experience with PayPal to know for sure they do not do court or sell debts on?

 

Many thanks again for your help so far

[PIXeL_92]

I hope you kept the details on the IMEI number, I would also get this blocked and reported stolen, so at least he just has an expensive paperweight.

 

I have had a couple issues with people abusing Chargebacks as they didn't get the outcome they hoped for when logging a false claim on eBay it took emailing the CEO of PayPal and a couple other higher ups for them to swallow the charge back.

[Krimbo]

Hello

 

Yes I did keep the imei number. I have not reported it stolen or anything as of yet, maybe I will do that now I just thought it should be sensible to wait for the dispute outcome first. If I did report it stolen who would I get to block the phone? This phone was new on sale so I never used it with my EE sim or anything.

 

Also I did speak to a supervisor manager at paypal but she assured me my money would not recoverable unless I had a proof of delivery receipt. Not sure how I would reach the ceo of PayPal though...

[PIXeL_92]

If you speak with EE and ask them to block it as it has been effectively stolen. They will blacklist it and if you get it recovered you can ask them to unblock it.

 

I will have to see if I still have the email addresses, if I don't just google PayPal CEO email etc.

 

One thing to, when a buyer purchases something on eBay it will give you an address to send it to even if collection is arranged, do you have that address with a name and possibly a telephone number ? May be worth giving them a call to ask them if they purchased the item and if so ask them if they made the mistake of "accidentally" reversing the transaction.

 

I have had that as an excuse before they "accidentally" disputed my transaction instead of a Google Play one, just because he got called out and I confronted him using the details from the eBay sales record.

 

Word of warning though, NEVER do Paypal again if it is collection only, cash or bank transfer only for the above reason, to many dishonest people about.

[Krimbo]

Hello

 

Thanks for your input.

 

I will most certainly never be using paypal or ebay for that matter as this has been a horrible encounter (whilst not their fault entirely, its disgusting that these loop holes exist for fraudsters to exploit).

 

I will contact EE and get them to block the device for me.

 

Has anyone had any joy with the small claims court process? would it work in this instance?

[dx100uk]

But you arent down the money are you?

Just your pp balance is -£925 yes?

[Krimbo]

Hello

 

Yes you are correct, only in debt on PayPal account. I withdrew the funds naturally when they came through.

 

Regardless though, I do not want anyone chasing me for money or any sort of issue with debt collectors (which I have been told above doesnt happen with PayPal).

[dx100uk]

doesn't matter even if they do chase you

a DCA is NOT A BAILIFF

and have 

ZERO powers on any debt,

 

 

[Krimbo]

Hello again

 

So just a brief update.

 

A month ago I cancelled all bank direct debits and debit cards on file with paypal and explicitly stated to my bank Nationwide over the phone to ensure they block PayPal from making any deductions or payment requests. I since got a new debit card and have not logged into paypal since.

 

Randomly I received an email from paypal yesterday stating that I made a payment of £1.00 to ebay. I couldn't understand how this could have happened if paypal don't have any payment details of mine. I logged into my bank app to confirm and saw a £1.00 ebay paypal fee. I logged into my paypal account and went into the payment section and to my disbelief they had my new debit card on file. I immediately rang up nationwide and asked how this could have happened and they said the following:

 

That it is not unusual for companies like paypal to contact Visa and request new debit details if the one they have on file has become unuseable or has been cancelled etc. 

 

I said that this surely must be illegal and asked them why the transaction wasnt blocked in the first instance like I requested. They told me when it comes to visa it is out of their control. I obvioulsy lost it with them and threatened to close my account in which they put me on hold, then came back and said they have put a block on paypal and asked visa to refuse requests for debit card details in future. I have since cancelled my debit card and requested a new one.

 

Paypal have clearly made an attempt to get access to my bank account/debit card by means without my knowledge or consent.

They also seemed to have tested whether the card works with a £1.00 sellers transaction fee which I dont know what its for. Luckily they have not been able to deduct the £925 but obvioulsy could have done if I hadnt noticed the fact they got my new details.

 

What should I do now regarding this? So far only the financial ombudsman seem to be willing to pursue and help me with the original claim wih PayPal but I feel this is something additional that requires investigation.

 

any of your thoughts are welcome.

 

Thanks

[dx100uk]

its a lacking on our part 

and yours as you didn't WRITE. instructing not to honour ANY payments to PP

but that's NW for you.

 

you need to cancel the CPA.

 

GENERAL NOTES ON CHARGEBACK & Continuous Payment Authority & BACS 
 .....
 We have been telling people to put a letter into their bank instructing them 
not to make any payments under any circumstances to these companies
 .
http://whatconsumer.co.uk/visa-debit-chargeback/- it works!
usually this should be done using the number on your debit card
 .
 banks MUST follow written intructions from their customers !
.
CANCELLING YOUR DEBIT CARD DOES NOT STOP CPA'S
 .
 This fsa guide has now been updated:
 .
http://www.fsa.gov.uk/static/pubs/consumer_info/know_your_rights_guide.pdf
http://www.fca.org.uk/news/continuous-payment-authorities-your-right-to-cancel
https://www.fca.org.uk/consumers/unauthorised-payments-account
 .
 Here's the text:
 .
 Cancelling a regular
 card payment:
 .
 When you give your credit or debit card details to a company and authorise them to take regular payments from your account, 
 such as for a gym membership or magazine subscription,
 it is known as a ‘recurring transaction’ or ‘continuous payment authority’.
 .
These are often confused with direct debits, but do not offer the same guarantee if the amount or date of the payment changes.
 .
 In most cases, regular payments can be cancelled by telling the company taking the payments. 
 .
 However, 
 you have the right to cancel them directly with your bank or card issuer by telling it that you have stopped permission for the payments. 
 Your bank or card issuer must then stop them – it has no right to insist that you agree this first with the company taking the payments.
 .
 Be aware, though, that you will still be responsible for paying any money that you owe.
and that CANCELLING YOUR CARD WILL NOT STOP THE CPA
 .
 ..
 .
 New june 2013
 .
 Regulator orders Banks and mutuals to review complaints about not cancelling recurring payments from November 2009.
 .
 Consumers who have set up a regular payment from their account will now be able to successfully cancel that arrangement 
 by contacting their card provider, the Financial Conduct Authority said.
 .
 The FCA has been examining how easy it is for customers to cancel Continuous Payment Authorities (CPAs) 
 due either to payday lendersicon or for other regular payments such as subscriptions or gymicon memberships.
 .
 CPAs, which are also commonly called recurring transactions or recurring payments, 
 are relatively easy to set up but can be hard to cancel, causing problems for consumers trying to manage their finances,the FCA said.
 .
 Now, following the FCA review of how the largest high street banks and mutuals process requests to cancel CPAs, they have agreed that they will ensure that when 
 a customer asks for a recurring payment to end, that will be sufficient to cancel the arrangement. They have also confirmed that should a payment go through by 
 mistake following cancellation by a customer the customer will be refunded immediately.
 .
 In addition to securing this commitment, the largest banks and mutuals have agreed to review every individual complaint they have received about the non-
 cancellation of a CPA and to pay redress where payments have continued to be made despite the customer cancelling the arrangement. This applies to all complaints 
 since November 2009 when the Financial Services Authority, the FCA’s predecessor, began regulating banking conduct.
 .
 Clive Adamson, the FCA’s director of supervision, said: “It’s important that consumers are confident that banks are meeting their everyday banking needs. Today 
 customers can be confident that when they ask for a Continuous Payment Authority to be cancelled – it will be cancelled - and that it can be done easily. 
 .
“We recognise that historically this is an area where some customers have struggled but the banks and mutuals have responded positively to our work on this issue. 
 From now on we expect them to be getting this right. In addition, they have committed to review past complaints.”
.
 .
 Also mentioned your displeasure that as whomever took your money had obviously attempted this many times 
 probably activating your banks own anti fraud software - nobody had the decency to inform my you this was going on.?

.
 .In the FSA's own words:
 .
 ..
 What should I do about a payment from my account that I didn’t authorise?
 .
 Your bank must refund an unauthorised transaction. 
 Money can only be taken from your account if you have authorised the transaction 
 or if your bank can prove you were at fault – 
.
see below.
 Contact your bank immediately if you notice an unauthorised payment from your account.
.
 If you are sure you did not authorise the payment, you can claim a refund. 
.
 However, your bank does not have to refund you if you do not tell it about the payment until 13 months
 or more after the date it left your account.
 .
 Your bank must refund an unauthorised transaction
 .
 ------------------
 .
 Your bank may only refuse a refund for an unauthorised transaction if:
 .
 ? it can prove you authorised the transaction 
– though your bank cannot simply say that use of your password, 
 card and PIN proves you authorised a payment; or
.
 ? it can prove you are at fault because you acted fraudulently, 
 or because you deliberately, 
 or with gross negligence, failed to protect the details of your card, PIN or password in a way that allowed the transaction
 .
 -----------------------
 .
 How quickly must my bank refund me for an unauthorised transaction?
 .
 The bank must make the refund immediately unless it has evidence that one of the above reasons applies. 

 Your bank may ask you to answer some questions and fill out a form confirming what has happened, 
 but it cannot delay your refund while it waits for you to return the form.

 If the bank has evidence that one of the above reasons for refusing a refund applies, 
 it may investigate before making a refund 
 but must look into it as quickly as possible. 

 If your bank rejects your claim for a refund it should explain why.
 If the transaction was on a credit card, the refund may not happen immediately. 

 But the card issuer cannot charge interest or ask for repayment of the amount unless it can prove you are liable to pay
 

 

[Krimbo]

Hello

 

Just found this on paypal website (uttterly shocked):

 

Read your user agreement:

 

3. Funding Sources

 

3.1 Linking your Funding Source. You can link or unlink a debit card, a credit card, a pre-paid card (in certain cases), a bank account and/or PayPal Credit as a Funding Source for your Account. Please keep your Funding Source information current (i.e. credit card number and expiration date). If this information changes, we may update it at our sole discretion without any action on your part, according to information provided by your bank or card issuer and third parties (including but not limited to our financial services partners and the card networks). If you do not want us to update your Funding Source information, you may contact your bank or card issuer to request this or remove the Funding Source in your Account Profile. If we update your Funding Source information, we may retain any preference setting attached to it.

[Krimbo]

Hi DX

 

I didnt write as nationwide record calls and also said its not neccessary as they blocked (supposedly) on the phone.

 

How do I now cancel cpa then? Do I still need to write to Nationwide? Or is it ok now that nationwide have confirmed the block for paypal and the block from visa team to refuse requests from paypal?

[dx100uk]

I would write.

then there can be no confusion.

[stu007]

Hi

 

I agree you need to write to them to clarify that your CPA request has actually been done.

 

Have a wee look at this CAG link on CONTINUOUS PAYMENT AUTHORITY: