Overcharged by revenue officer at station

[yups]

 

Hello

 

 

 

I had a 'permit to travel ' from my departure station ( a machine that allows one to put a deposit on a ticket with a coin)

as the main ticket office was closed. So I was legal to travel.

 

I asked to buy a ticket at the turn-styles on my arrival/ destination station.

 

The staff would not let me have off peak fare, they adamantly insisted I pay 'on peak' which is allot more and detained me.

 

I knew they were trying to over charge me. but what could I do ?  I was trapped behind the turn-styles,

I was not allowed to go home on the train or leave into the town. I could not walk away, it was quite stressful.

 

They even said its my own fault for not buying a ticket at the departure station.  (Even though it was closed, hence the permit to travel ticket I had!)

 

In the end, after a debate, I had to agree to be overcharged to get out the station!  They threatened a terrible fine if I refused to do so.

 

However, I then checked with the main office on the way out and they said they had indeed over charged me and I had to go back to the turn-styles to get a refund.

 

I went back to the turn-styles, I told them they were overcharging me, as head office said so, that this was not the first time for me and I have seen it happen to

others (I have evidence). They reluctantly gave a refund. They were not very happy about it, with zero understanding of why this was unfair.

 

 In my mind it felt like this:  Just give a refund and " who's next to be overcharge?"   no care for the future customers at all.

 

There was no indication of why this happened or that it should never happen again. These people are meant to be trained experts. And they know very well when it is on peak or off peak times!

 

However,  this is not just about me. I said that a refund is not good enough by itself, as this has happened before.

A refund does not solve this problem for other people. and i asked what are you going to do about it?

 

The supervisor again tried to blame me for not buying a ticket at the departure station and said it was my fault and...without a warning.

 

The supervisor called a security guard and told me to get out the station. A security man ushered me out.   With no refund.

 

I asked could I have one, he said no, get out!

I asked if I could use the overpriced ticket to go home, the guard said no and that I had to leave!!

 

Any views on this would be great thank you.

 

 

 

[dx100uk]

I know you feel aggrieved but please don't use insulting words in your post or its title. 

removed.

 

you need to lodge a formal complaint 

have you the receipt and the ticket still?

[yups]

hello

thank you for your advice,

 

Just so people know i used the word [removed]   I did not think this was insulting, but I see your point of view.

I was just being honest on how I felt whilst typing.

I say this just in case people think I may have swore, I did not.

 

Yes I do have the ticket.

 

Thank you for your reply.

 

 

[dx100uk]

swearing is not insulting someone, name calling is.

thank you

 

pop up on the relevant TOC's website and make a complaint.

[yups]

hello.

 

What is a "pop up" and "TOC"?

 

Thank you

 

[dx100uk]

pop up = goto

 

TOC = train operating company 

[yups]

 

Thank you for your reply.

 

I wonder, what do you expect them to do?

 

I am wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience, or has some thoughts on the matter?

 

If a ticket revenue officer knows when 'on peak' and 'off peak' is and yet they still overcharge with on peak, more than 50% more, yet they do not pocket the money themselves.

 

What insentive do they have to overcharge people?

Could they be instructed to do so, by their superior?

They are very agressive to get the on peak fare. Why would that be?

 

None of the ticket officers asked what time I wished to travel home.

Which would alter the ticket price.

 

It was on peak, full fare/price and final,  off peak was not an option at the turn-styles.

 

 

 

[dx100uk]

None of the ticket officers asked what time I wished to travel home.

 

and what time were you at the barrier?

 

 

 

[yups]

hello

 

I was told by the main ticket office that if I travelled home after 6pm it would be an off peak fare.

but they never asked me what time I would be heading back home at the turn-styles.

 

main office said i was being over charged. so i went back to get a refund.

 

i wasn’t going to give names dates, times, locations on a forum. is that a bit over the top? I just feel uncomfortable.

 

But as mentioned they did reluctantly offer a refund at the turn-styles.  Until I said that was not good enough by itself as a refund does not solve this problem for other people. then they tried again to pass blame on me for not buying a ticket at the departure station and told me to leave.

 

There is no doubt I was overcharged.   I just feel I have to do something to stop other people being overcharged too.
 

 

[dx100uk]

sorry but I find it really strange that you didn't inform them of what time you'd be returning home when, after what seems, a protracted conversation was entered into, which resulted in the overcharging you thus  complained about ………………...

 

if a person presents themselves at a barrier with a 'permit to travel ' during a peak time, are the revenue inspectors supposed to be telepathic.....

 

ok it would be nice if they did ask that question yes, but one would also assume one would tell them especially as you indicate its happened to you before, and, you have evidence of it happening to others...[were you earwigging when they told the revenue officer the time they wished to travel home...]

 

seems to me you purposefully didn't tell them to catch them out?

 

I believe should you read the relevant rules surrounding the us of a 'permit to travel ' it indicates you will be charged the full fare unless you advise otherwise??

 

time for bed... let's see what the experts say tomorrow.

[honeybee13]

Hi.

 

Did you have the opportunity to pay once you were on the train? It could have avoided the problem.

 

If you want people to be warned by your experience, we need to know at least which TOC you're talking about.

 

HB

[yups]

hello

 

you stated:

 

"sorry but I find it really strange that you didn't inform them of what time you'd be returning home when, after what seems, a protracted conversation was entered into, which resulted in the overcharging you thus  complained about ………………... "

 

Please do not apologise. You can say what you like.

 

I just knew what the price should be prior to my journey. I knew they were charging me too much. That is all I knew. I did not expect to have to go through this, I assumed the departure station would be open and I could buy a ticket prior to departure.

 

I did not know I had to tell them when I was returning home. I did not think to do that. They did not ask. However, yes, I found out at the main ticket office that if I were to return home after 6pm it was off peak.That is when I found out for sure they overcharged me and I was told I was entitled to a refund.

 

you state:

"

if a person presents themselves at a barrier with a 'permit to travel ' during a peak time, are the revenue inspectors supposed to be telepathic....."

 

No. But ' if ' it is important to know the time of return, to get the correct ticket price for me, then they should ask, should they not? Especially if the customer thinks he/she is being overcharged. they should say somthing like:  well, what time did you plan to return home?

 

You also state:

 

"ok it would be nice if they did ask that question yes"

 

Yes, then none of this would have happened!

 

Also, if the permit ticket stated to 'mention a return time' or to 'ask what time and fare might be suitable for you,on or off peak, please enquire if unsure'. Again yes, none of this would have happened.

 

I am now glad I understand how it works (and does not work) and it was a tough lesson to learn.

 

However, If I had known that all I had to say was, to the effect: "what time do you need me to return for an off peak fare?" Or " if i return after 6pm, am I off peak?" or anything like that,  Had i known the return time was that important to get the appropriate ticket from the turn-style staff, then I would have stated my return time and never have found out just how far some of these people, as you call them " revenue officers" are prepared to go to over charge people who do not know this concept, such as old people, disabled, or anyone who does not know to simply state what time they plan to return.

 

I have seen debates before, yes, but there was no budging these people in the day in question, it was full fare and that is final and It got worse to be escorted out. because I  was just trying to protect future customers.

 

I would also never have know that under certain circumstances it could be a very stressful ordeal. If a person believed they were being over charged.

 

The last time i was overcharged I gave in quite quickly.  I actually believed the turn style staff.

I got my refund later at the box office, when I remembered just by chance that the cost should have been the same as the last time I travelled. I then spoke to the helpful staff at the box office. They are great!

 

I am prepared to pay. Always! And want to pay the correct price. And I want everyone else to be able to not be overcharged either.

 

This situation in question was different, because I knew I was being overcharged. But they would not agree. They would not tell me my options.  I did not understand the concept fully. They stuck to their guns. Full fare!! Until a box office staff member stated otherwise. I just knew it was near 50% too much compared to my previous ticket costs. and then I knew that it was happening again to me.

 

So I tried very hard to refuse. But had to give in when threatened with fines if I refused to be overcharged. I was given two options 50% more or fines. Not very nice. Hence I went to the box office afterwards and found out.

 

 

 

 you state:

... but one would also assume one would tell them especially as you indicate its happened to you before, and, you have evidence of it happening to others...[were you earwigging when they told the revenue officer the time they wished to travel home...]"

 

 

Yes it has happened before and I have evidence,  but not like this. And yes I have seen other debates regards high price at the turn-styles. but ' return time'  was not discussed.   It was not discussed at the incident in question by the turn style staff EVER!! (please excuse my caps lock). 

 

It is confusing. Even the box office staff said it is confusing for people.

 

I did not know stating a return time would help me get out there faster. I needed to go.

 

How can it be, that during the time I was debating this price, they never stated something like...well, it depends when you wish to go home? Because that is not hard to do. Why would they not do that?

 

Especially when I am saying it should not be this much. I feel you are overcharging me!  They could say: Well, o.k ...what time do you plan to go home? We can make it cheaper if you return after such a time.  I could say after 6 is fine with me. Then they can say something like: Oh fine that is off peak. Then I say something like, Oh I see, thank you very much. That seems better to me,

 

I thought it was a debate on my arrival time. Hence I was being detained on my arrival. I only found out retuning is the main factor from the main ticket office.

 

I don’t have to "earwig"(I presume you mean listening in)  it is quite evident when there is an issue at this turn-style with a ticket price when people are not happy and feel they are overcharged. Again I never heard a return time being discussed at the turn style. But I have heard people walk away feeling they are over charged. And I have solid evidence of refunds too.

 

you stated :

"seems to me you purposefully didn't tell them to catch them out?"

 

A very poor assumption and very rude.

 

I arrive, I am polite, I have my money in hand, I know the price I should pay. Yet I am detained, threatened with fines if I do not comply with being overcharged, refused travel, and escorted off premises simply because I did not feel a refund by itself was adequate to protect other customers.

 

That overcharging me because they did not want to discuss my options for my ticket ( on/off peak return time rules) and with no information on the permit to travel ticket. It all felt very wrong to overcharge me. And yes I was overcharged.

 

The staff can't pocket anything,  they can not steal from me by overcharging me.  So it is very peculiar behaviour. This is the part I do not understand. Why would they do this? they had plenty of time to suggest options.

 

you state:

" I believe should you read the relevant rules surrounding the us of a 'permit to travel ' ..."

 it indicates you will be charged the full fare unless you advise otherwise??"

 

You put question marks at the end of a sentence that seems more like a statement.

 I presume you are making another careless assumption against me?

 

There is nothing in the rules to help the traveller in this situation. I went back to the station and got a permit ticket a day after it happened.

 

There is no information on the permit ticket about having to state when the return journey is to be made when purchasing the ticket. It does not say anything about peak or off peak or to clearly state the time which I should like to return. or to enquire if i am unsure of peak or off peak. Nothing like that.

 

Again I only got the evidence I needed when the box office told me "after 6pm return is off peak."

 

It is confusing to travellers. I wonder how many other people have fallen for this and shall do in the future?

 

 Only the box office gave me good information. They seemed very happy to help. if only I could have seen them first. The turn-style crew are on another level.

 

you state:

"

time for bed... let's see what the experts say tomorrow. "

 

Will there be an expert on the board later on?

 

That was quite a barrage of assumptions and lack of concern for my feelings, I feel. After what I went though on that day. You seem more concerned to protect the errors made at the turn-styles.

 

I know I am right and have very good evidence.

 

So, after reading, I hope you will wish me luck.

 

All the best

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[yups]

Hi honey bee 

 

I saw no conductor and decided to pay at the station when i arrived. It states on the permit ticket at the first opportunity and also within two hours.  So I was legally travelling and honest and prepared to pay

 

In fact! I almost forgot to mention!

 

I tried to put the full amount into the permit to travel machine prior to departure!!

 

It refused my pound coins!

 

So I went back to that machine and videoed me trying to put pound coins in it and thankfully it still refused!!

 

So I can prove that I tried to pay in full before I even left the station.

 

First opportunity? Absolutely!  Right from the start! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2019 by yups

[yups]

You will have to forgive me but I have a bad headache from all this. i have tried as you can see to type all I can to help not just me but others too.

 

but I am out it is 7am!! 

 

The only people who helped me were the box office staff at the station, they were great.

I unfortunately cant say all they said as it is private but wow I wish I could!! you would be amazed.!

 

I hoped this forum would generate some support. So I could share some bombshell info.

 

The poster above dx100uk is talking to other members on this website, people who have admitted committing crimes over many months and yet dx100uk is very decently helping these people, with great care and I admire that.

 

But for some reason I am a target here for dx100uk

 

And it is upsetting.

 

I hoped for so much more.

Edited August 20, 2019 by yups

[dx100uk]

what time were you at the barrier and got stopped?

and what type of ticket did you intend to purchase, but couldn't so used the 'permit to travel' option?

[king12345]

What you have done is correct: ticket facilities not available,  buy a permit to travel and pay on board or destination.

Now the problem is peak or off peak.

 

From what you said they charged you a peak because they didn't ask what time you would be returning. 

So I assume they sold you z return ticket, correct?

 

If this is the case, for a return to be off peak, both journeys must be off peak.

So if you had travelled in peak time outbound,  no matter what time you were returning,  you would need to pay peak price.

 

Of course if you had travelled off peak they should have asked.

Accordingly to the answer to the above, a complaint should solve this.

 

My advice, keep it short and remember that the important matter is peak or off peak price.

Anything else confuses the situation to your disadvantage. 

[yups]

1 hour ago, king12345 said:

What you have done is correct: ticket facilities not available,  buy a permit to travel and pay on board or destination.

Now the problem is peak or off peak.

From what you said they charged you a peak because they didn't ask what time you would be returning. 

So I assume they sold you z return ticket, correct?

If this is the case, for a return to be off peak, both journeys must be off peak.

So if you had travelled in peak time outbound,  no matter what time you were returning,  you would need to pay peak price.

Of course if you had travelled off peak they should have asked.

Accordingly to the answer to the above, a complaint should solve this.

My advice, keep it short and remember that the important matter is peak or off peak price.

Anything else confuses the situation to your disadvantage. 

 

 

We have looked at the ticket options for the exact time travelled.

 

it is not possible to buy an on peak ticket at the time I left the departure station

 

There is no option

 

There is only one option.  The cheaper fare.  that is all I knew!!  The cheap fare.

 

So when I arrive and they detain me, threaten me with fines and force me to pay the higher 50% more fare. I found that very stressful as I suffer from anxiety anyway. I also would have had to pay a fine if I did not have enough cash in my pocket. (I found later that I needed my cash in town)

 

The box office confirmed they were overcharging at the turn-styles.

 

I walk back and tell them they over charged me again.

 

The ' turn-style crew '  agree to a refund , without checking.

Thats odd isnt it !  They didn't need to check or to confirm. They knew I was entitled and agree to a refund.

 

Why did they not say.  "well, we need to check that first!!"  And if they can check. why did they not check before? 

 

Then I complain that a refund is not adequate by itself to prevent this from happening again, 

Yet....

 

Although a refund is imminent as they agreed. The supervisor again tries to blame me for not buying the ticket at the departure station.  Even though I had a permit to travel.

 

So, i hope you see what I am saying here? Do you see how hardcore they are to pass blame and fine people!!  Who trained these people?  Am I really expected to complain to the same company who oversees this nonsense?

 

He then again lied, yes again, trying to inspire fear for a fine. Claiming I missed my first chance to buy and said that the permit machine is always on, that it is irrelevant and useless and that I should have paid at the touch screen ticket computer, that it takes cash ( this is wrong!!). (Previously he had smirked saying it is his home station that he uses it all the time). I said that it was not true, that  i could not pay in full and it is not my fault, he said it was my fault and when he could not lie any more, without warning, had me thrown out the station by security with no refund and I was told I could not even catch my train home!!!

 

Amazing! 

 

They did everything to fob me off to overcharge me.  There is no cash facility at my home station, only the faulty permit ticket machine that seems to only take one type of coin,  that thankfully.......thankfully I had that particular coin, by chance, as the pound coins would not work..they were spat out. Else I would have been in serious serious trouble with these people. There are much higher fines without a permit to travel.

 

(Important side note regards the elderly. As an adult with reasonably strong hands, even I find it ' very hard '  to remove the permit ticket made of thick card, it is very tough to do. How do elderly people remove the ticket or even a child? I really cannot see that happening. It really is that bad at my station)

 

regards to a question above, I am not sure what a z ticket is, I have an M on mine.?

 

We have read the code of conduct and there are multiple references to the staff helping people get the right ticket. and considering there was only one ticket for a return that day, that should not have been a hard thing to do, at all.

 

Yet they have a button they can press to over charge  Who programmed that into their machine and told them to press it?

 

Thank you for reading.

 

Edited August 21, 2019 by yups

[dx100uk]

So what time did you buy the permit

and what time did you arrive at the barrier where this happened??

[yups]

 

Why do you ask? can you explain why this is needed? especially when the there is able information.

I have been told to keep dates, times, locations costs private for now.

 

can you elaborate? 

 

 

 

[dx100uk]

because its very important to what is off peak and peak

if you bought the permit during peaktime, and arrived at the barrier during peaktime

then as i said, staff are not telepathic........

then they have did nothing wrong.

 

but ofcouse you haven't purposefully told us that from post 1.

 

you deserved the refund and should get it 

 

 

 

 

 

[yups]

 

 I cant give times dates location costs as I am not going to do so until the very moment I make a complaint

or what ever route I decide to take. 

 

Even if the person operated ticket office was open at the departure station when I wished to buy the ticket.

There was no peak ticket option available, only the cheaper off peak fare option.

 

There was no peak option.   I dont understand why trhey would need to be as you say "telepathic"?

 

There was only one price.

 

The polite and respectful box office staff did not even have to ask me about my desired return time because they knew there was no peak ticket option.  Within 10 seconds he told me so.

 

The only ticket that i should have paid for was the cheaper off peak ticket,

 

There was no option for a peak ticket. hence the box office did not have to ask me.

 

Does that make sense? 

 

The code of conduct is clear that they should ask about my journey and provide me with the appropriate ticket

and as off peak was the only option, that should not have been a problem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[king12345]

Ok, so as you have been overcharged you now need to be pragmatic and first of all request a refund by making a complaint. 

In this first complaint do not go on about what argument you had and what conduct the inspectors were following. 

Concentrate on highlighting the fact that you must get a refund because they overcharged you. 

People looking at complaints receive thousands everyday and anything longer than a few lines is usually misunderstood. 

 

After you receive your refund, then you complain about the conduct of the inspectors,  as a completely separate matter.

I note that you were offered a refund, an argument broke out and you were escorted out of the station.

This will not play in your favour as all inspectors would have taken note of this in their notebook and possibly complete an incident report form with their version of events.

Frustrating but that's how it is, that's why I said to be pragmatic. 

[BazzaS]

OP has had their refund offered already : suggest you re-read OP’s posts for confirmation, although they didn’t get it because they were then asked to leave the station for saying the refund alone wasn’t enough (the OP’s version of events).

You can bet the gateline staff’s version of events will be along the lines of “refund offered in an attempt to de-escalate the situation, but despite this situation escalated requiring security to be called, and the passenger was escorted from the station”.

 

It’ll be a “he said, she said”, and I can’t see a complaint going far. It doesn’t matter if a ticket has been paid for or not : once it gets to the stage where the staff deem behaviour sufficient for the passenger to be denied use of the station they are entitled to refuse travel, and unless the OP can show this was entirely unreasonable the OP is on shaky ground.

 

Demanding “more than a refund” from the gateline staff will make it hard for the OP to show they were being unreasonable, especially if the gateline staff’s version of events mentions this and even hints at any concern for their safety: how do you imagine they’ll have written it up?

[honeybee13]

I'm about to post this in a new thread, don't know if it affects you but there are quite a few rail companies involved.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/aug/21/thousands-of-uk-rail-travellers-overcharged-for-not-having-a-ticket

 

HB

[BazzaS]

HB, that applies to penalty fares, where the penalty is the higher of £20 or twice the single fare, so although it involves the “peak vs. Off-peak” issue, I’m not sure it applies to the OP’s situation.