RBS - PPi and life insurance on same claim?

[NGEddie]

Correct, a loan and mortgage PPi from before this 2003 product have been refunded

 

Yes, it is active with Aviva after RBS transferred it to them

 

It almost looks like this life assurance department didnt get all of the information from the 2019 claim I made, where I stated I was advised it was compulsory to have PPi and also this decreasing term insurance/assurance thing.

 

In this case i'll draft a response stating these bits and ask to you give it the once over

[dx100uk]

short and curt...

 

dx

[NGEddie]

It seems not all the information from my initial PPi and associated insurances claim made in 2019 has been transferred over to you.

 

I stated I was mis-sold the decreasing term life assurance, as at the time of purchase I was informed this was compulsory for my situation and type of mortgage. 

 

I only learned this was not true in 2019, along with the loan and mortgage PPi’s. This is within the six year limit you mention and would explain why RBS recently acknowledged the other two PPi’s were indeed mis-sold also and have since been refunded.

 

This life assurance was transferred to Aviva in 2011 and is currently being paid monthly, whilst this is resolved. If I had known it was not compulsory, somewhere along the line I would have cancelled it.

 

The statement I made that I do not have an endowment mortgage, so there ‘was’ no legal requirement to have nor ‘should’ the bank have made this plan compulsory, was from information I learned in 2019. Also that the only beneficiary was the bank through ultimate direct payment should something have happened to me, settling the mortgage sum.

 

To be absolutely clear, the concerns I have raised were not known to me at the time of purchase and I was not aware that I had cause for complaint at that time.

 

[dx100uk]

On 10/02/2021 at 14:44, NGEddie said:

When looking into complaints, I am guided by the rules from our Regulators, the Financial Conduct Authority. These rules are known as the Dispute Resolution rules, or DISP rules. These rules place a responsibility on customers to raise any complaint or concerns within a reasonable period of time; a complaint should be raised within six years of when the advice was provided or, if later, within three years from when a customer first became aware (or should have reasonably become aware) that they had cause to complain.

 

if the above were true and is the stance of your bank, bearing in mind ALL other policies, including this xxxx policy, which is our mutual  concern today and were all on the same initial original complaint letter,  why have they all been accepted as mis sold and have already been refunded ? Why suddenly is this time policy only relevant to this part of my complain?

[NGEddie]

Thank you.

 

Just send this on its own? and not add it to the bit I drafted?

[dx100uk]

I thank you for your letter dated xxxx, it's contents are duly noted.

 

then as above

[NGEddie]

Ok great, they sent it by some fancy secure email system thing. I have the email address to reply to, assume this is ok?

[dx100uk]

saves postage

 

[NGEddie]

Have a reply! I sent exactly as you said and...

 

In relation to your comments regarding your claim about your other plans, these were Payment Protection Insurance (PPI) plans. PPI claims are allowed to be investigated after the 6 year time limit has passed. However, this moratorium is just for PPI plans and not for other plans or investments.

 

During the infancy of the PPI review into possible mis-sold PPI plans, several ‘test cases’ went to Court. This was partly due to the fact that many PPI plan holders weren’t aware that they had taken out PPI with their loans, credit cards or mortgages (for example) in the first place. As a result of these Court rulings, the standard time limitations, as stipulated in the Dispute Resolution (DISP) rules, were lifted for PPI claims only.

 

However, the DISP rules apply to your plan, as above, which is a Decreasing Term Assurance.

[dx100uk]

On 03/11/2020 at 13:56, NGEddie said:

Hi HB

 

Sure, I recall being told I had to have the decreasing term life assurance alongside the mortgage which started in 2003 and this was by an advisor in the branch.

 

I submitted the PPi claim in 2019 in time which covered a loan ppi, mortgage ppi and this decreasing term life assurance. I referred to them all together as 'ppi and associated insurances' on advice.

 

They have admitted to miss-selling the loan in 1998, the mortgage ppi in 1999 but are saying there is a separate decreasing term life assurance team who I now need to make the complaint to which is where I am a little concerned?

 

Hope this helps.

 

E!

 

Anyone advice please?

 

Really not sure how to reply as feels like they are trying to separate the ppi and life assurance by pushing me to the other department. The whole thing with this was to group them together 

 

expand on the above, not got time to scan further back, but are you indicating that the reason for  this life protection was a loan that has since been deemed mis-sold by the original creditor?

 

[dx100uk]

read the letter in post 23 here 

Payplan - Cover My Life & Cover My Payments - Debt Management Plan Companies - Consumer Action Group

it explains how the 3/6yrs works straight from the ombudsman's mouth.

 

 

[NGEddie]

Hi dx

 

Post 23 letter has been hidden as has a name in it. I did read the thread and in post 7 saw mention of 'must complain within 3 years of being aware it was mis-sold' if this is what you are referring to? Also my policy is live currently.

 

I think you know this, but it seems the RBS/Halifax agent doesnt know, that 'I became aware it was mis-sold just before I raised my claim (2019) having read a media article'  as I dont think the PPi team showed them the original claim form maybe, who knows.

 

Expanding, sorry I missed the word PPi after 'loan' in my post you quoted and highlighted. To be clear, the life protector was not for a loan, but a mortgage, and that mortgage did have a mis-sold PPi on it which they have admitted and refunded.

 

If it helps, I have several mortgage offers here from 1999 and they say 'Minimum life cover to be assigned to the bank' 

 

The odd thing here is, I started the mortgage and PPi in 1999 but it was 2003 this life assurance started. I do categorically recall being told it was something I had to have though.

 

Many thanks

 

E 

[dx100uk]

try now

[NGEddie]

Thanks now working and i've had a read.

 

I seems to make sense. They claim there were pressured into it, but were written to half way along advising it was optional and that would have been their time to complain.

 

In my case, I certainly didn't have anything saying it was optional, either at the start or part way through.

 

My form submitted in 2019 said

 

Finally, tell us now why you are unhappy with the policy(s) that you purchased:

 

I was told the ppi/associated insurances were compulsory for my situation and type mortgage and only recently learned this is not the case.

 

Where do we go from here please?

[dx100uk]

i don't think the matter of you were told the Decreasing Term Assurance was compulsory makes any difference, it doesn't detract from the fact the FOS appear to agree that disp does apply and you are out of time .

 

i don't think there is any harm going to the FOS with it..BUT

although, and this twigged my memory about DISP ( which didn't exist then) but the ABI code did, and i believe that doesn't cover your situation, i'e , the fact it was made compulsory is not against any guidelines that were around at the time.

 

you could drill down on the ABI coding and see what it advised about lenders making DTA compulsory, but sure as eggs is eggs, by 2005, when disp had arrived..all lenders were forced or had stopped long before making any type of life cover compulsory. so they knew their mis-selling of such was on the cards

 

Critical illness cover (financial-ombudsman.org.uk)

 

[NGEddie]

Are you saying the 6/3 year rules does apply to me, even if I only realised it was mis-sold in 2019?

 

The agent is talking as if I knew this was not compulsory in 2003 when I signed for it  

 

[dx100uk]

there is no link between the 3 and 6yrs limits.

they are sep entities 

 

you are being told under the 3yrs disp rule that you are out of time, the FOS seem to concur - re that other threads letter, however that rules might not apply if you have exceptional circumstances.

 

i am wondering if to date the lack of ref to the ABI code of conduct, if it applied in your case, fits the exceptional circumstances criteria.

 

you need to go look at the ABI code of conduct. i'e it should not have been made compulsory, i don't believe the other code DISC was in force till 2005

 

AFAIK ABI covers aLL INSURANCE PRODUCTS NOT JUST ppi....MIGHT BE A ROUTE?

 

 

ppi GISC + ABI code info case omb-decision-C.pdf

[NGEddie]

Ok thanks, i'll have a read and finger crossed.

 

I wonder if there is a possible angle with Aviva if not as it transferred to them in 2011 I think it was  

[dx100uk]

the mortgage it protects is still active is it not?
 

[NGEddie]

Actually, no, or at least not with RBS. I changed to a different provider in 2009.

[dx100uk]

you mean you paid the mortgage off that the policy protected and financed it with another policy from elsewhere...???

so why have you been paying for life insurance on a mortgage that has not existed since 2009?

 

surely the policy was to protect the mortgage is was taken out for and no longer has any benefit whatsoever to you and no-one will get anything out of it should you die?

 

what does it state it protects and who gets what ?

[NGEddie]

As you have made this so black and white, I have just realised I have probably made a total mess up here 

 

Yes, the original RBS mortgage from 1999 changed in 2009 to a buy-to-let with a different mortgage company, for the same property.

 

As I thought I had to have a life assurance, this would be ok, even though it was a much smaller amount.

 

It states the policy holder as myself and the property address and says 'in return for the payment of agreed premiums the company will pay the benefits in accordance to the policy conditions' it doenst really specify who would be paid. I have actual document here.

 

Something to mention, when I bought this property it was uninhabitable and I have never actually lived there. It was empty for ten years until 2009 when I got some additional borrowing, renovated it and let it out.

 

In 2011 therefore when it changed to Aviva, that mortgage had been paid off 2 years before.

 

I have a feeling you are going to say it was my responsibility to have cancelled the policy in 2009 with RSA or with Aviva?  

 

As I had been advised by RBS, I thought I had to life insurance/assurance of some kind as I had a mortgage.

 

 

 

[NGEddie]

Do you think  I have anywhere to go on this please?

 

Should RBS have told me to cancel the policy when I stopped using them as a provider?

 

Should Aviva have checked the mortgage was in place when it transferred to them in 2011?

 

Does it make any difference RBS knew I wasn't living in the property 2003-2009?

 

Many thanks

 

 

[dx100uk]

what does the policy actually do?

if you died tomorrow what would happen ?

what payouts would goto who about what?

why don't you directly ask aviva?

[NGEddie]

Called Aviva...

 

what does the policy actually do?

 

Covers/insures my life over 22 years from 2003 and decreases by 10% each year

 

if you died tomorrow what would happen ?

 

The policy would pay out the amount it has reduced by at that time

 

what payouts would goto who about what?

 

Payouts would go to the estate and this is not linked to any property or any mortgage or company

 

Thoughts?

 

Very frustrating as I do recall being advised I needed to have this