CLI/IRD Claimform - Australian Visa Fees relating to potential Employment

[unclebulgaria67]

CLI are not proper debt collectors, as I don't think they have any FCA licence to conduct debt collection.

 

All CLI offer is a suite of letters, which creditors can use to chase debts. CLI simply post out the letters and pass on any monies received.

 

Safe to ignore them, as they cannot do anything. Any doorstep enquiry agents they probably won't be sending, have no powers. They simply ask if Miss Xxxx lives at the address and would they like to pay a debt.  You simply say nothing and close the door. They would not bother to return.

 

 If the Aussie company want to pursue this, they can instruct UK Solicitors to issue a UK Court claim, as you are resident in the UK. Before the alleged creditor can issue a UK Court claim, their UK Solicitors would need to send a letter to you, advising you they would issue a Court claim.

 

If you never agreed to any terms regarding the costs of the Visa, then there does not appear to be any basis to a Court claim.

[unclebulgaria67]

I can see why someone might write asking to prove a contract existed, but I have a feeling that CLI will just pass on to the Aussie company.

 

It might then lead to letters being received including copies of emails, letters etc, where the Visa application, plus the costs of the application was being discussed and how the costs would be repaid.  

 

Although a written contract may not exist in one document, the communications about the Visa application costs and repayment, plus the OP's acceptance could be considered a contract.  As the OP does not reside in Australia, there is nothing stopping the Aussie company instructing UK Solicitors to issue a UK Court claim to attempt to recover the alleged debt.

 

It is whether the Aussie company are willing to incur a lot in legal costs and risk losing in Court.  The CLI process is a cheap way of trying to recover a debt, simply by paying costs of sending letters. If the CLI process does gain any response, the decision is with the Aussie company, whether they spend any more money to try to recover the alleged debt.  Replying at this stage might encourage the Aussie company to continue, by sending copies of communications which they will state do form a contract.

[unclebulgaria67]

That would be a question answered in a Court.

 

it would be difficult to argue that you had not agreed to repay the Visa costs . You would point to the fact that the Visa was subject to you actually starting work and repaying the Visa cost via a wage deduction. 

 

If there are no terms stated in any communications about repaying the Visa, if you did not start work, then I would think that the Aussie company would fail with any Court claim.  

 

I don't think you want to get into any communications through CLI. You could simply respond directly to the Aussie company, just confirming that you reside at the UK address and if they feel the need to communicate with you, that they can write to your UK address. Don't say anything else about Visa or work issues. The letter is simply confirming your UK address for any communications. This just records that you have confirmed your UK address and can receive correspondence at the address. That you are happy to receive their communications and are not ignoring them. You just don't get into any discussions regarding any alleged debt.

 

 

[unclebulgaria67]

Have removed image in last post as court claim number showing.

[unclebulgaria67]

Please read the linked to thread and provide the basic details of the Court claim received.

 

 

[unclebulgaria67]

Can CLI issue court claims acting as a debt collector, when they don't hold an FCA registration to conduct debt collection activity ?

 

I saw the image the OP added earlier and it showed that CLI had issued the court claim, saying they were assigned the debt on 20/7/20 ( think this was the date) 

 

If they are taking on debts under assignment, surely they need to hold FCA registrations ?

[unclebulgaria67]

Could it be argued that the foreign company providing the Visa service were providing a type of credit facility, as they were going to collect fees for their services via a future payment arrangement ?

 

This is what the OP stated in first post

 

"the deal was they paid for my visa upfront and when I got to Australia and started work I would pay them back out of my salary weekly.

I didn't even sign any contract regarding this."

[unclebulgaria67]

DONGARA MARINE PTY LTD

 

Is this the name of the sponsor company ?

 

You have documents showing you entered into agreement for them to become responsible for costs, which would be paid back later via your wages ?

 

Is there anything stated about what happens, if you could not start your employment ?

[unclebulgaria67]

It may help to add PDF copies of emails, employment contract offers etc, where anything about visa or costs related to this pre-employmemt help, is stated. 

[unclebulgaria67]

I think it is clear from the visa options document that the employer offered to pay the costs and there would be a need to repay the amount. They just don't go state what happens, if you could not start the employment. 

 

Others on here are more aware of legal matters and hopefully they will comment further in due course.

[unclebulgaria67]

Companies should stick to what they know about and not stray too far.  Odd company CLI ?

[unclebulgaria67]

Any update ?

[unclebulgaria67]

@Andyorch  Don't understand how CLI can be the claimant in this case, if they don't own the debt ?

 

 

[unclebulgaria67]

Not a Consumer Credit debt, so CLI don't need to be FCA registered.

 

So CLI have bought the debt and taken over responsibility for the original contract. 

 

This is then essentially an argument about  whether there was contract between Ginni and Dongara Marine ? And if so that Ginni has broken the terms of the original contract ?

 

 Did Ginni agreed to repay the VISA application costs, if they did not start their job with Dongara Marine and serve a relevant period of employment with them ?

 

Clause 12 of the A&M fees document says that jurisdiction is exclusive to the Courts of Western Australia. 

 

Deed of assignment is suspect.  Look at the handwriting of the managing director who signed it and also the handwriting of the witness.  Looks like it was written by the same person.   Has one person signed the deed and also as the witness ?

 

 

 

 

 

[unclebulgaria67]

@Ginni1062  attachment removed, you hid md name in most of the document, but not under the signature. Presume you wanted to hide this.  Please re-upload.

 

Hopefully @Andyorch will be around later to reply.  Your email about visa costs from house sale and if company willing to cover, with you repaying later, is a bit concerning.  Can you upload a PDF with these emails.

 

 

[unclebulgaria67]

See if you can upload the chain of the emails. 

 

You need to be able answer for what appears to be communications which form part of an agreement. 

 

I can see where you are coming from that there was no specific contract regarding the visa fees repayment, but I can see why the employer believes an agreement was entered into, in the form of ongoing communications between the two parties.

[unclebulgaria67]

The weakness in their claim, is that they don't have any written communication from you, where you have given explicit consent to enter into a loan agreement for thousands of dollars.  Such an agreement should have covered  scenarios where you were refused a work visa or there was some other reason for not being able to take up employment in Australia.  If Dongara had asked you to sign an agreement detailing the loan and advising that it was repayable in all circumstances including the above, they would then have a better case.

 

Dongara raising the issue of the work trial to check suitability, also suggests that they jumped the gun and should have waited before going through a full work visa application.  The immigration visa companies communications also suggest that a lot of information was required, before they could submit an application .  For Dongara to enter into an agreement with the immigration visa company wiithout collecting enough information to be reasonably confident in you obtaining a visa, does appear odd. 

[unclebulgaria67]

The Judge at the previous hearing was possibly commenting that you had entered into a process of moving to Australia to work with Dongara and as part of that process it would be necessary to apply for a work visa.  And you had agreed to repay them out of wages when you started working for them.  The fact that you did not actually start working for them, does not mean you are not liable to repay Dongara.

 

Suggest that you look at every communication you had with Dongara or with the visa application company where the issue of fee repayment is mentioned. 

 

Did you tell Dongara they could proceed with visa application process  on the understanding you would repay them ?    If you did, is the main point of your defence that repayment was subject to you starting work with them and the fact that you did not start working with them, means you are not liable ?

[unclebulgaria67]

I think the communication where you are talking about selling your house and repaying them needs to be explained, by putting this into a wider context. 

 

So you might want to explain that working for Dongara was not certain at the time of them contracting with the visa company and you had not agreed to pay the visa fees in all circumstances.

 

The point you need to be really clear about is that you only agreed to repaying the visa fees, if you accepted the employment contract offer ( subject to spending a week with Dongara), moved to Australia and started the employment.  Then go into the information briefly about why you could not accept the employment offer.

 

 

[unclebulgaria67]

Not if you are making payments and they would have to go through a Court process if you were not paying.

 

If you move abroad, then yes they could chase you abroad and some foreign Courts may allow for the English Court judgement to be enforcement via the foreign Court.  Subject to their processes being followed.

[unclebulgaria67]

It is a civil debt, so no access to inside your House, unless you let them in.  But they could look at property you own outside of the house.  So if you owned a Car that could be seized,  if you were subject to enforcement action.

 

Without seeing your budget, if you paid the £150 a month, how would that leave you ?  Would you be able to pay for all essential household bills and costs you have no choice in paying ? 

 

It is a bit late in the day and I am not suggesting that you appeal. but not being at the Court hearing really put you in a weaker position, as you could not explain your side of the story. Sometimes, when someone is able to explain and give emotion to what they are saying, it is far more convincing, than any written statement.  But if you had paid for a Holiday, I can understand the reason for not attending.  

[unclebulgaria67]

I doubt they would let it go unpaid.  They would pay the enforcement fee for HCEO officers to visit you  and they could go back to the Court if you continued to refuse to pay the amount.

 

Is the £150 the final decision or can you go back to make a further proposal with more information on your fianances ?

 

You need to leave yourself room financially to deal with increasing costs such as energy bills which are due to significantly increase this year.  Or you start off paying the £150 and if you cannot afford it, then you apply to vary the amount later in the year.

 

Has the CCJ already been recorded on your record ?If it is not yet recorded,  Is there a  way, you could pay the judgement amount in full ? 

[unclebulgaria67]

I guess the way it looked was that you had engaged in the process of securing an Australian VISA, decided in the end for understandable reasons you would not make the move and then decided that you did not want to pay towards those VISA costs. 

 

The process of moving to somewhere like Australia, is to go through the VISA process in advance of any possible move to see if you could gain the permission to work and reside there, plus what terms/conditions would apply.

 

The whole recruitment process from what you have said appears to have been a set of misunderstandings. e.g. the type of work, employment  terms and conditions include VISA application costs.

 

UK and Australia operate under very similar legal processes.  All of the communications you had with the employers could be seen as an agreement process. 

 

As I said earlier, a bit late in the day.  The CCJ is there and you will have to see what you can do to reach agreement on a payment amount you can afford. 

 

 

 

 

[unclebulgaria67]

Practice Direction 52B - appeals in the County Court and high court

WWW.JUSTICE.GOV.UK

 

(d) grounds of appeal, which must be set out on a separate sheet attached to the appellant's notice and must set out, in simple language, clearly and concisely, why the order of the lower court was wrong or unjust because of a serious procedural or other irregularity (Rule 52.21(3)).

 

Wrong or unjust because of a serious procedural or other irregularity.   

 

Appealing is not very straightforward, as you need to find either a process error or legal error, which enables a different Judge to hear an appeal.  So you could end up spending thousands more and not winning any appeal.

 

Up to you really.  You could contact a Solicitors to gain their opinion on an appeal, but make sure you understand the costs involved if you proceed.