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Bumblebee1814

NHS Trust Whittington/FWJ Legal Claimform - Salary Overpayment

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Posted (edited)

Hi all

 

I was referred here from the MSE website. 

 

Long story short:

- I worked for the NHS from Feb 2009 until August 2011. 

- I moved home to in Oct 2011. 

- I received a call in Jan 2013 from NHS to state that I was overpaid in Sept 2011 and Oct 2011. Amount approximately £2800

- At the time I was under huge financial pressure and didn’t really question it and started to make voluntary payments. 

- I couldn’t sustain the payments due to changes in income etc. 

- In Nov 2016 NHS asked me to increase payments from £25 per month to £200 per month. 

- I refused as I couldn’t afford this and contacted CAB. 

- After getting advice from CAB I looked into this matter further and requested various info. 

- Overpayment was as a result of late notification from manager that I had left. When I queried when the manager notified HR they have refused to provide me details. 

- Overpayment relates to net pay only minus travel expenses. I wouldn’t have expected travel expenses to be paid after I left and asked from copies of the signed claim forms which the payment relates. They have thus far not provided this info. 

- I queried tax and NI payments. I was told that HMRC were not informed of the overpayment and my P45 doesn’t reflect doesn’t reflect overpayment either. 

- I asked for details of which bank account it was paid in. They didn’t provide the details and kept saying it was my account. 

- Apparently they sent a letter re overpayment in November 2011 but I already moved so didn’t receive. 

- They the sent an invoice in September 2012 which again I didn’t receive. 

- They contacted me via my mobile in January 2013. 

 

Court proceedings have now been issued so need to answer before deadlines. 

 

Any help would be appreciated. 

 

Thanks in advance. 

Edited by Bumblebee1814

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Firstly, please will you send them an SAR immediately. This should have been done ages ago. Send them the SAR by email and confirm in writing by recorded delivery.

Secondly, please will you post up the claim form in PDF format.

Thirdly, please will you read up on estoppel. Follow the link.

The only thing which troubles me here is that you seem to have been overpaid in respect of months for which you were not working. In other words I understand that you cease working in August yet you continued to receive payments for September and October. This would mean that you should reasonably have been on enquiry about these payments. An estoppel will run if you can show that you received overpayments in utmost good faith.

Please can you tell us a bit about the fact that you receive these payments when you had stopped working and so presumably there might have been a clue to the fact that there was some error.


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Hmmm – bumblebee seems to have buzzed off. He/she needs to engage with this thread if we are to make any headway on this problem – particularly because it sounds quite pressing


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No I’m still here. 

 

I will upload the claim form in the next hour or 2...sorry rushed off my feet this morning. 

 

Honestly I don’t remember receiving any salary payment in September or October. But I did receive payments from NHS Bursary and Student Finance. 

 

At at the time I was going through some debt issues so checking bank statements etc wasn’t a priority. 

 

Although not not relevant to the issue at hand the reason for the move at that time was I was fleeing to a refuge with my kids. 

 

There was a lot going on and a lot of burying head in the sand for a lot of things I needed to deal with. 

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Okay thanks. Please make sure that it is a PDF scan and not a photograph.

Also maybe you could let us know what is the return date for this claim.

I should warn you that I'm away at the moment and have very patchy Internet access so please keep a close watch on this thread. I expect I'll be asking you lots of questions


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I'm sorry but I did ask you to download this in scanned PDF format not a photograph. You have posted it up has a photograph which makes it difficult to read in any event and  because I am away and mainly having to use a telephone, it makes it impossible.

please will you re-uploaded in scanned PDF format. If you are using an Android then you can download Adobe scan from the Google play store. If you're using an iPhone then I have no idea.

 


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Sorry I did take a photo then convert it. I will scan and upload again. 

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If you are using an Android phone then you must scan using Adobe scan. The app is free from the play store.

The alternative is to scan your documents properly using a scanner. you can get an excellent scanner for £49 from PC World or from Currys and you will have it for years.

it seems to me that there is quite a lot of money at stake here and we can deal with it quite easily but we will need to have your documents properly presented in an easily readable form and in good condition.

from what I understand on the posts you have made on this forum and also on MSE, you have an excellent case to make a substantial reduction of the amount claimed if not defend against it completely.

Send the sar as I have already advised. Confirm that you have done this.

I would also like to understand why you received 2 months payments after you had ceased working without realising it. This is very important.

 

finally, please use the claims pack which came with the claim form and send off and acknowledgement of service immediately and this will extend your time for the defence to a full 28 days. That will give us time to sort most of the day and to understand where we are

 

 

 


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by the way, I expect that I will be asking you to scan up quite a few other documents over the course of this discussion and so a scanner is really quite essential.


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also, I would like you to tell me a bit about the agreement that you had with them to pay in installments. I understand that you were making a weekly or a monthly installments against a certain overpayment. What was the overpayment that you were paying against and

please will you tell us how much you were paying weekly or monthly and whether you kept to the installment agreement or whether you stopped paying at all and if so when and for how long and was there any discussion with them about it before you ceased payments.

 

sorry if this all sounds rambling but I am dictating it on a mobile phone in a cafe

 


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I’m not at home so will have to pick this respond fully when I get in. 

 

Briefly, in answer to some of the questions you’ve asked, I didn’t realise that I was overpaid and the first it came to my attention was when I was contacted in January 2013. 

 

In September/October 2011 I was expecting payments from NHS Bursary and Student Finace which was about £2000.

 

The overpayment I was repaying was this overpayment. At the time I accepted that I owed the money. There were several agreements, as I couldn’t always keep to them due to fluctuating income. 

 

In November 2016 when they wanted me to pay £200 per month I contacted CAB. CAB told me that I should’ve looked into this more before agreeing repayment as it was a significant amount. 

 

I will do the SAR and let you know and answer the rest of your queries later this evening. 

 

Thanks so much for the help you have given me thus far. 

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@BankFodder Please see attached.

 

 When I do a SAR is there standard wording that I should use? I haven't really done one before except in reference to a Parking Ticket, so want to ensure that I get it right first time.

 

 

Claim Form.pdf

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Folllow the SAR link

 

Make sure you send of the claim acknowledgement.  You can do it this weeken


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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, BankFodder said:

Folllow the SAR link

 

Make sure you send of the claim acknowledgement.  You can do it this weeken

 

As one of the MSE posters who suggested the OP come here for advice, can I ask whether the OP should be doing a SAR to the claimant, or to her former NHS employer, or both?  [EDIT: Sorry - the claimant's name is redacted so it may be her former employer - I'd assumed a third party.]  As a former NHS finance manager myself, I'm surprised that her previous employer don't seem to have already provided a breakdown of the overpayment.

 

(Also, the claim refers to an invoice from 2013 which - from my experience - would have been for the full amount to be repaid, but the claim is also asking for interest on this full(?) amount despite the OP having made some repayments?)

Edited by Manxman in exile
clarification
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On the matter of interest, that troubles me too.

I'm also bothered by the fact that they are trying to claim statutory interest on interest


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@Manxman in exile The claimant is the NHS employer but they want papers served on their legal rep. 

Also I’ve been communicating (properly shouldn’t have been) with a DCA: CCI Legal. 

 

So I guess I can SAR to both. Will do it by tomorrow. 

 

In in terms of breakdown I’ll go through emails and letters and attach so you have an idea. 

 

Original amount was £2811.82. £2346.82 is what’s left minus payments already made. Also note that after I made a formal complaint they increased the amount further by about £249 saying that there was an error in initial calculation. 

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1 hour ago, BankFodder said:

On the matter of interest, that troubles me too.

I'm also bothered by the fact that they are trying to claim statutory interest on interest

 

Is this normal practice? Or should they not be charging interest?

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Some figures....

September 

Basic Pay £1625

HCA £336.33

Travel Expenses £83.20

Gross Pay £2044.53

Tax £267.60

NI £163.12

Net Pay £1613.81

 

October 

Basic Pay £1625

HCA £336.33

Travel Expenses £178.56

Gross Pay £2044.53

Tax £267.60

NI £163.12

Net Pay £1709.17

 

I also need to urgently go through my emails because I was initially told that HMRC and P45 didn’t reflect the overpayment. However I can see in a letter from the Trust that they say that the overpayment amount was included in the P45 and what they informed HMRC. 

 

Does this have any tax implications for me?

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Firstly let me make it clear again that I'm away the moment and I have very patchy Internet access for at least the next two weeks so it's going to be hard going for me to get my head round this.

I expect that other members of the site team will join in and together we will arrive at an understanding of what has happened.

In terms of outcomes, there are three possible scenarios as far as I can make out.

Firstly could defend on an estoppel which basically means that you received the overpayments in good faith, you had no way of realising that you were not entitled to the money you are receiving because you relied on their authority to make the payments and also the circumstances were such that you didn't directly notice or realise that overpayments are being made.
If an estoppel succeeded then they would fail completely in the claim and you would not have to pay anything further – although I doubt whether you would get any of the payments made to date, return to you.

The second possibility is that we successfully challenge the interest payments and eventually have the sum claim reduced.

The third possibility is that they are successful in their claim and you have to pay the entire sum.

A fourth possibility might have been to say that after the overpayments had been acknowledged by you, that you had entered into an instalment agreement with them which they are now trying to change. However, this argument doesn't seem to work because you have already told us that you have experienced financial difficulties and you have entered into several agreements to repay the money – suggesting to me that either you have defaulted on a number of agreed repayment schemes or you have had to approach the authority to modify them.

To deal with estoppel first of all, if the overpayments had been made during the course of your employment so that there had been an extra hundred pounds or maybe a couple of hundred pounds each month on top of your normal salary, then it would be entirely believable that this extra sum might have gone unnoticed by you and that you will be able to say hand on heart that you had no idea that you are being overpaid, the money has now been spent and therefore you shouldn't have to pay back – that the authority is "estopped" from claiming the money back.

However, you have already explained that you had finished working in August yet these payments were made in September and October. I think you would have to come up with a very cogent explanation as to why you didn't notice payments or else why you thought you were entitled to them so that you didn't query them with your ex-employer.

Maybe you like to address this point now.

The second issue is on the matter of interest which is being claimed. I have to say that their claim is expressed quite poorly. However it's not helped by the way that you have explained the situation which to me at any rate seems to be rather unclear. Do you have any clue as to the basis upon which they have decided that they are entitled to charge you interest and what the interest rate might be? Have you any idea how far back the application of interest goes?

I would appreciate it if you could possibly lay out a bullet pointed chronology of what happened from the moment you left your employment until the moment you were alerted to the possibility that you had received overpayments.


Also, I'm interested to know what correspondence you received in relation to the outstanding debt and to their intention to begin a legal action against you. There is a pre-action protocol which they are required to follow the circumstances and I wonder if they followed it.
 


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Do you have a copy of the invoice which they have referred to in their particulars of claim? Please could you post it up.

He also said that you approach the NHS in 2016 and ask certain information. Please could you post up a copy of the request and a copy of their reply.


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Thanks for the reply and do appreciate the time you are taking to respond. 

 

Sorry if I’ve not been clear, it’s all confusing to me as well, because I haven’t dealt with the situation properly. 

 

Part of the problem is that I thought I could deal with it myself, whereas o should’ve asked for help from the get go. 

 

Prior to these overpayments happening I was already experiencing difficulties both financially and personally. In Dec 2011 I arranged a DMP with Payplan to deal with my debts and was advised to close all bank accounts and open new ones so I could start with a clean slate. 

 

I ended my employment August 2011 and started a Nursing Degree with Southbank University September 2011. As far as I’m concerned I didn’t receive any further payments from my previous employer and was only in receipt of an NHS Bursary and Student Finance Maintenance Loan payments until July 2012, when I finished my 1st year (and withdrew) and started working full time via a temp agency. 

 

First I found out about the overpayment was in January 2013 when I received a phone call from the NHS Trust. 

 

I was was supposed to check my bank statements but in all honesty I forgot as I was recovering from an operation at the time. 

 

I was again contacted by the NHS Trust in March 2013 at which time I agreed to make the payments. 

 

Again I didn’t bother to check my bank statements or request any further info as I was quite unwell following complications due to my operation. 

 

Part of of the main reason why I didn’t check bank statements was that I closed all my bank accounts and opened new ones and would’ve had to contact the bank to get copies. Given all that was going on for me at the time, it was too much effort. 

 

So from March 2013 until November 2016, I was making payments, I didn’t dispute the overpayment or make any effort to check or get further information.

 

In November 2016 they wanted me to increase payments from £20-25 to £200. At which point I refused and realised I needed to get help and advice around this. 

 

I contacted CAB and they said that I should checked that I had actually received the overpayments before I made any repayments etc. 

 

So so I requested further information. From November 2016 until May 2019 I have been communicating with CCCI on behalf of the NHS Trust, with the exception of 1 response to my complaint from the NHS Trust. 

 

What i I need to do is go through my correspondence and do a proper chronology, which I will do tomorrow. 

 

I did receive a LBA which I responded to. It’s entirely possible that I missed something or responded incorrectly. 

 

Attached is the invoice. 

 

Re the interest I have no idea why they decided to charge interest or on what basis. It looks like they want interest from 1 month after the attached invoice until the day before they filed their claim. 

 

Please note that that I didn’t receive this invoice when they sent it as it was sent to my previous address and only received it after I requested further information. 

 

All other info I’m going to post tomorrow. 

Invoice 00036428 Outstanding amount £2,346.82.pdf

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Posted (edited)

Sorry just a couple of quick questions. 

 

One of the things I asked for was confirmation of the bank details the overpayment was made to. The reason for asking is that I’d already closed all my accounts and instead of approaching all the banks for statements I could narrow things down.

 

The NHS trust however have refused and maintain it was into my account and won’t provide further information. 

 

The other thing I asked for was details of when my manager notified them I was leaving or left. Again they haven’t provided this information. 

 

My departure wasnt sudden and was known since at least May 2011 as I was off to study and my manager provided references etc. I even gave notice from June 2011 and had to use up annual leave etc so I can’t imagine that my manager notified them so late. Especially as they wanted someone to replace me straight away. 

Edited by Bumblebee1814

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you don't need to use the forms

keep them for ref.

this is a simple moneyclaim 

I would follow our std procedure.

 

pop up on the MCOL website detailed on the claimform.
.
 register as an individual
 note the long gateway number given
 then log in
.
 select respond to a claim and select the start AOS box.
.
 then using the details required from the claimform
.
 defend all
 leave jurisdiction unticked.
 click thru to the end
 confirm and exit MCOL.
.
get a CPR 31:14 request running to the solicitors [if one is not listed send to the claimant]
https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/332546-legal-cpr-3114-request-request-for-information-when-a-claim-has-been-issued/
.
type your name ONLY

no need to sign anything
.
you DO NOT await the return of paperwork.
you MUST file a defence regardless by day 33 from the date on the claimform [1 in the count]
 


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Just in case I haven’t made it clear (or as clear as I can be). 

 

I don’t actually think I received these overpayments as I didn’t bother to check when I was notified of the overpayment. And to the best of my recollection I didn’t wake up to find a healthy bank balance and was during these 2 months receiving NHS Bursary and Student Finance Payments. 

 

The NHS Bursary was paid monthly and Student Finance 3 payments over the year. First being in October. I’ve attached a screenshot so you can see. 

Scan 10 Aug 2019 (2).pdf

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