CEL PCN Claimform - Tenerife Buildings, Station Road, South Gosforth, Newcastle NE3 1QD *** Claim Discontinued***

[laluna88]

Submitted defence on 21st Jan and had receipt to say it was accepted etc. 

 

It read: 

1. I am the keeper of the vehicle as indicated in the claim but I deny being the driver at the time. There is no keeper liability in this matter as the requirements of the Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA) were not met to create one.

2. The Notice to keeper does not create any liability for any
amount as the NTK fails to indicate who the creditor is, contrary to the express requirement of the POFA.

3. The signage at the entrance to the car park were not an offer of a contract but an INVITATION TO TREAT. It does not specify the businesses that it is claimed to serve. No contract formed to
breach.

4. The claimant has failed to show any authority to enter into contracts with the public by way of an assignment from the landowner to do the same and to make civil claims in their own name.

5. I do not believe (but I have requested this information and haven’t received it from the claimant) that the claimant has the necessary permissions for their cameras and signage under the Town and Country Planning Act 2007. This is committing a criminal offence by having them there.

I believe that there is no cause for action against me and that the claimant has no LOCUS STANDI in this matter. 

 

Thank you. 

[dx100uk]

thank you...

 

and what else did it say on the court ack letter...?

dx

 

 

[laluna88]

This is the acknowledgement. 

 

The 28 days are up on 19th Feb. 

 

Is there anything I need to do to prepare for that day or anything that CEL may do that is untoward?

 

Cheers

court ack.pdf

[dx100uk]

yes need and should have been and to do now...READ UP on any/all PCN claimform threads here on CAG.

CAG is selfhelp too …!!

[laluna88]

THanks @dx100uk. I've already read lots of things re. Witness statements and the N180 form - will keep mooching through different threads to read up though, thanks. There seems to be a lot of variance mind you and not sure which of them are related to this.

 

Just wanting to go through a few things though if you don't mind as I want to be clear of exactly where we're at with this particular case:

 

- is the signage in this little car park completely inadequate? i.e enough to have this as a strong argument? 

- 20 minutes free parking, overstayed by 22 minutes:

• I first went to one business (hairdressers) but they were closed. I then went into another instead (which I later found out wasn't technically in the same 'block' to be able to use the car park) but equally the signs don't stipulate which businesses they're supposed to be serving. How was I supposed to know? (they're like 4 doors apart)
• The original business never registered the vehicle for me to cancel the PCN even though they were asked (and said they would) on two occasions. How can ANPR cameras be fairly used? Especially when this business was supposed to be open but they had gone to the cash and carry apparently

- I've also looked through Newcastle City Council's portal to see if there is planning permission and can't find a thing?

- I've had my husband request from the DVLA who has requested his details in order to issue the PCN in the first place (not sure if this was worth doing but done it anyway) 

- The latest letter from CEL has the correct details at the top of the letter but the completely wrong PCN/Vehicle info in the body of the letter. Does this make any different? 

 

And finally, this is now on MCOL: 

date of service of 06/01/2020 notified on 12/02/2020 at 15:45:19 

Any idea what it means?

 

Many thanks

[dx100uk]

why not ring newcastle planning?

permissions for CEL to erect cameras, signs, poles could be the killer. as well as who OWNS the land and who CEL actually has a contract with and if they are one and the same!

 

CEL will drop the claim when it becomes apparent that it has been robustly defended if they don't let it get autostayed.

[laluna88]

I've called - they've said that they may not have needed permission depending on the size of signage and height of cameras. 

 

A planning enforcement officer has kindly offered to look in to it for me though so sending him information now. 

[dx100uk]

well that's not true as they are not ADVERT SIGNS so the office junior needs to read up.

 

and they are NOT CCTV cameras so the height thing or being mounted to building so exempt which is the other dodge they sometimes say, do NOT apply to ANPR cameras.

 

they WILL need specific planning perm stating CEL and encompassing each sign and each camera.

[laluna88]

Hi @dx100uk

 

good news and thanks so so so so much for your advice before - I referenced what you said and had this back from the Enforcement Officer: 

 

“I’ve discussed your enquiry with my colleague and we are of the opinion that the actual signage would require advertisement consent (a search of our records shows that no permission has been granted and there are no outstanding applications), however we believe that the camera itself would benefit from permitted development rights.

 

I hope this information is helpful, and should you require anything else, please do not hesitate to contact me directly.”

 

frustrating that I didn’t do this before I put in my defence but I’ll include in the WS! 

[ericsbrother]

 

your explanation of events above makes no difference to a contract between you and CEL and  you point about CEL not making reference to the businesses it serves there is immaterial if they have a contract with the landowner for all of that development as they shops wil be tenants and have no say.

The main ppint about the signage is that it isnt a contract. no offer and acceptance due to illegality of signage andthe lack of need to consider and accept the terms on the other signs

Edited February 19, 2020 by ericsbrother

[laluna88]

How can it be irrelevant? It’s a car park that has several shops in front of it but half of them are classed as ‘Tenerife buildings’ and the other half aren’t. No where on the signage does it say that you can park there if you’re entering a business in ‘the Tenerife buildings’ - it is just generic signage. The original shop had the capability to add the car reg to the system to stop me/my husband from getting this bloody PCN in the first place. 

 

Anyway. I’ve read on other threads that if the council aren’t going to take action on the signage then I can’t really use this? Or will the email from the enforcement officer be enough? 

 

Apologies that this is frustrating for you all, your help and clarification is much appreciated. 

[ericsbrother]

Boots or whoever just rent the shop, they ahve no interest in the land. The ontract CEL have MUST be with the landowner so that is why you ask to see the contract between them and the landowner  If they have a contract with someone else then they dotn have the right to do anything and cannot perform to the contract they are offering you. the lack of a way of inputting your car reg to get an extension also voids the contract as there is no mention of an alternative or penalty for NOT BEING ABLE to do this

It doesnt matter that the council arent going to take action, doesnt stop the act being illegal. they dont arrest everyone who drops litter but doing so is still illegal.

 

these are points you need to understand, it is not about parking at all, it is about offer, acceptane and the breach of a contract. We are saying there was no contract becasue they cnat legaly offer you anything

 

read up a lot more on parking and it all becomes less scary

[laluna88]

Thanks @ericsbrother - all duly noted.

 

Just to update, we received the N180 form (https://www.moneyclaimsuk.co.uk/PDFForms/N180.pdf this one) and filling it out to return now. This is the only thing we should have received at this stage, right? I've been reading up - this is the Directions Questionnaire THEN we'll receive an Allocations Questionnaire?

 

Sorry to be pedantic (and annoying!!) also but just wanting to clarify - as I was the driver and my husband the Registered Keeper, should we be putting 2 down for 'Number of Witnesses' and for me to be honest that it was me in Court too if it gets to that stage? The threads I've read have conflicting info.

 

And finally (sorry again!!) to confirm i've done it right, I've filled out the paperwork so that the copy going to the Court has full contact information and a signature but my Husbands email address/phone number and signature are redacted on the copy send to CEL?

 

Thank you for your patience with me! My husband is just wanting to pay this now as he doesn't fancy ending up in Court but you guys are keeping me going! 

 

Sorry that was meant to say 'notice of allocations' letter (not Questionnaire).

Edited March 10, 2020 by laluna88

[AndyOrch]

You submit your Directions Questionnaire...then you receive a Notice of Allocation N157 with the court directions and dates in preperation for the hearing.

 

Andy

[dx100uk]

don't forget

- you don't agree to mediation

- I wit - the defendant

 

do not give sig/phone/email on the copy to their sols

 

[laluna88]

Thanks Andy! 

 

Should we be putting down 2 witnesses too?

 

Sorry @dx100uk looks like we both replied at the same time.

 

Ok all done.

 

Looks like i'm going to have to educate my husband over these next few weeks so that he is up to speed with everything that happened and with everything i've learnt over these last few months  will get started on the WS ASAP!

 

Will post a draft when I'm done if that's ok?

 

Thanks again for all your help

[dx100uk]

I would pers let them file WS before you make yours.

you are a LiP and can take advantage of that status 

[FTMDave]

1 hour ago, laluna88 said:

Thank you for your patience with me! My husband is just wanting to pay this now as he doesn't fancy ending up in Court but you guys are keeping me going! 

 

I've been to civil court.  It's no more intimidating than a job interview.  You just sit at a table with a well-dressed person (the judge) and give your side of the story.

[AndyOrch]

Some hearings can be quite informal subject to location and county court...but some will be held in court rooms rather than the judges chambers....so be prepared...but never the less dont be intimidated ...you are still allowed to present your side of the matter.

 

Andy 

[ericsbrother]

If you want to represent another person then it is 1 witness( and you ask  to be allowed to be a lay rep). If you are both speaking it is 2 witnesses

[laluna88]

What would you advise @ericsbrother? I feel bad that he has to go to court when he wasn’t the driver. We submitted the paperwork with 1 witness. 

 

Also - has a letter of an offer from CEL to medite and settle. Good sign surely?! 

new doc 2020-03-13 12.56.14_20200313125808.pdf

[FTMDave]

Well, sort of, they don't really want to do court because they're likely to lose.

 

However, what a bunch of con artists.  How has £100 suddenly become £267?  'Cos they've added on a load of fictitious made-up charges, that's why.

 

As you actually owe them £00.00 go to court and smash them.

 

Though I suppose, just for once, you could offer them £0.05 as a settlement

[dx100uk]

begging letter.

please give us something before we either have to discontinue the claim or lose in court.

 

dx

[ericsbrother]

they dont want to pay the allocation fee knowing they are just chucking money away so hope you are dumb enough to fall for this.

 

Now if they were serious they would have used the correct channels to offer mediation, not a sneaky offer of a natter on the phone where no-one in authority has a hand on their reins.

Ignore it completely.

 

I got offered the chance to settle out of court with them the day after I gave them a spanking cos they didn't turn up

. they are just not the sort of people you would leave your silverware out with.

 

 

[laluna88]

Hi Everyone,

 

Hope you're all keeping well despite all of this craziness! 

 

I had hoped that this would go away but clearly they're like a dog with a bone. We've received a letter to the case has been allocated to the small claims track although haven't received a date for it yet. 

 

We do however have to submit the Witness Statement etc by 29th May so will be cracking on with this the next couple of days. Just wanted a bit of advice though please - as it was me that was driving, should I go as the witness/put the paperwork together as me? 

 

Also, re. the back story of the local businesses saying they'd add the car reg so we didn't get a fine and then didn't; should we put that in our WS or focus wholly on the elements such as that the signs haven't had planning permission and the signage doesn't form a contract etc?

 

Thoughts welcomed

 

Thanks