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council PCN address confusion - didnt get NTO - help

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Hi..

Does any one happen to know if you can submit the N244 application outside of the 14 days?

 

The council have stated I provided different contact details to that of the DVLA why I didnt get the NTO so the appeal was rejected

 

I have proof I did not do as stated and can obtain proof from DVLA that the details have not changed as they imply.

 

But as I was not the driver at the time they sent the original appeal so I needed to check they did not provide something incorrectly.

 

I have managed to obtain proof that this also states the I am the owner and the same address as held by the DLVA

but I have just noticed the order was date the 17th July

so by my count 14 days are up.

 

I am gutted these people might get me away with ripping yet another person off with a blatant lie

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n244 is nothing to do with penalty charge notices 

its mostly for county court civil debt cases.

rarely does it play a part these

 

dx

 


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Apologies this all started with a parking ticket.

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In order fror us to work out  where you are in the enforcement process, you need to tell us exactly what happened and exactly what you have received so far with dates.

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I was using a friends car and had been parking in what I believed to be private car park for residents and it was signed posted as such. 

 

There was one council sign outside of the private area however I was not aware this was related to the car park due to the signage and the fact I had recently been in contact with the landlord further to a survey they had done in regards to the future of the car park. 

 

After years I received two tickets randomly in July 2018.

I appealed the tickets but it was refused, another resident however had their tickets cleared after appealing.

 

The owner of the vehicle contact the council who issued the ticket and they advised he can appeal again once he receives the NTO. 

He only received one NTO for the second ticket issued.

 

He appealed and lost apparently some is council owned and one is owned by the landlord despite it not being sign posted within the area.

 

He contacted the council again to enquire about the first NTO and was advised it was sent to Northampton County court so he contact them several times but nothing was received by them regarding the ticket.

This was all between July 18 and January 19

 

He then contacted the council and they advised they had sent something in the post but nothing was received until 17 June 2019 and that was from a debt collector.

 

He then filed an application with the TEC due to not receiving the NTO however the council have stated he provided a different address to what was provided by the dlva and mentioned it was his responsibility to change the address if moved so they rejected the application.

 

As I was the driver I am obviously the one who will have to pay this and I therefore wanted to ask the owner to file a N244 as the TEC judgement was dated 17th July which means it is now over 14 days.

 

As myself and the owner both wrote to the council I needed to check we had not noted anything incorrectly and we certainly haven't and the owner of the vehicle has not changed and nor has the address.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

It's 14 days from  the date of service of the letter of rejection (and not 14 days from the date of the letter). Date of service is deemed 2 days after the date of the letter, so 19th is  the DoS. So 14 days = Aug 2nd.

Edited by Michael Browne

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Ah I see, thanks for explaining.

Unfortunately it seems this cant be done online, so no idea how I can get it there by the end of tomorrow :(

 

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Your friend is the debtor, not you. I understand that morally you feel obliged to pay the parking ticket, but do you also feel responsible for his not soting this out sooner, not responding to the Charge Certificate or Order for Recovery, and also not filing his witness statement in time (which I'm guessing is what happened)?

 

If so, you may just need to pay him what is owed. There is a mechanism for filing an N244 to challenge the rejection of the witness statement but he will need to have some solid grounds. Really he should have sought advice before he filed the witness statement, and then he might not have had it rejected.

 

Do we know the ground he stated in his witness statement, the reason he gave for it being out of time, and why it was rejected?

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Hi Jamberson,

 

This is not my friends fault, the witness statement was filed he had no idea it was late, as explained to TEC the only thing received since the original appeal by me for this ticket is the debt collector letter.

 

It was only because he filed the witness statement that he was told it was out of time and they advised what to do.

 

The council failed to send any correspondence to the owner regarding this ticket and the reason they say is because the owner changed address but did not inform DLA which is not true and either way even if they did send something to my address in his name i would of seen this so they are a bunch of liars and as i had the car whilst the tickets were received it makes it my issue morally.

 

It doesn't say why it was rejected i assume it is because the council stated he changed address, i did email the TEC  and request they look at that as it simply was not true i even supplied copies of the correspondence with shows the same details as held by the DVLA.

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He had no idea it was late? He would have needed to fill out a separate application explaining why he was filing it late. If he didn't do that, he's filed the wrong forms.

 

Maybe he should file another one, an "out of time" one - but post here first for some advice on what to put before you send anything off.

 

I don't know why the council might post something to your address in his name. Why would they do that if they are writing to him?

 

Anyway, maybe you can confirm whether he filed the one-form "in time" witness statement or the two-form "out of time" one.

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Posted (edited)

Hi Jamberson

 

He filed the in time form directly after receiving the debt collector letter after I did some research.

 

He then got a response from TEC advising it was out of time and that he need to complete the out of time form.

Did ask how it could be out of time if he only just received the letter and also attached a copy if it.

 

We were both very confused by this but the application wasn't rejected so we thought it was all ok until we received the letter informing us it was rejected.

 

I live at one address, and the owner lives at another. I originally appealed the tickets but explain very clearly the situation and state very clear that I am using the vehicle of and out there full name and address in which the car is registered.

 

The councils reason for the rejection is that he gave them a different address to that of DVLA which is why he never received the NTO... but he never gave them any address. I did however but it is the same address as the dvla hold. No NTO was received at any of the addresses for this ticket.

 

And the TEC dont seem to check any of this before rejecting.

 

 

 

Edited by BankFodder
edit

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I am utterly confused by the above. Every post contains a new puzzle.

 

One minute it seems like it's your car ("I am the owner"), the next it's someone else's ("I was using a friends car"), so one minute your're driving it, they next you aren't ("I was not the driver at the time")...

 

It's so hard to give any advice without knowing the true facts.

 

Your last post says, "he [your friend] never gave them any address. I did however but it is the same address as the dvla hold. No NTO was received at any of the addresses for this ticket."

 

Your friend didn't give them an address, but you gave the same address held by DVLA [why??], which they will already have - and which neither of your live at? Or you in fact live there? And the Notice to Owner, the Charge Certificate, and the Order for Recovery all failed to arrive?

 

You understand that this isn't normal by the way - 99 percent of people have their own car, registered to their home address and there are no complications.

 

I will just give you some background details of how the process works.

 

If a PCN is issued, the council ping off to DVLA to get the registered keeper's name and address, and by law, all correspondence goes there.

 

Once the Order for Recovery is issued, a Witness Statement needs to be filed with a certain timeframe. I think it's 21 days.

 

If it is not, then bailiffs are instructed. Since you received contact from bailiffs, your witness statement was definitely out of time - and so you needed to submit both a witness statement, and a separate form explaining why it was out of time.

 

I don't know what you put by way of explanation for it being out of time. Your post hints you didn't understand this bit - "Did ask how it could be out of time if he only just received the letter ... We were both very confused by this." So I'm guessing you didn't provide a clear enough statement.

 

An N244 now is a long shot, and you have to pay to file one anyway.

 

My best advice - pay the balance now, and get rid.

 

 

 

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I think you have confused yourself to be fair... if you actually read back through you will see I have clearly stated I am not the owner of the vehicle but I had been using it when the tickets were received.. nothing unusual about that.

Thanks for the help anyway

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I known you have stated you are not the owner and were only the driver at the time.

 

You also put things like, "I was not the driver at the time" and "I have managed to obtain proof that this also states the I am the owner". That's where the confusion comes from, not from me.

 

Anyway, the situation is unchanged - it's clear now your friend is the debtor, and if it's his repsonsibility. If you feel morally obliged to pay it for him, you can, but if not, I don't think he will have much success with an N244.

 

Good luck, whatever you decide.

 

 

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Thanks again Jamberson, you asked me questions... I answer and then you try to insinuate that I have written things I haven't so you are clearly misreading what I have written.

 

I thought this website was here to help, obviously I got that wrong.

 

Thanks anyway.

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I didn't insinuate anything. I quoted you directly from your first post. And if I've misread what you wrote, it's only because it isn't written clearly.

 

As for helping - that's what I have tried to do all along - for free, out of the goodness of my heart, for a total stranger - look at the paragraphs I've written for you above, with no expectation of anything in return.

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I share Jamberson's confusion.

 

In post #1 you say, "But as I was not the driver at the time they sent the original appeal so I needed to check they did not provide something incorrectly.

 

Then in post #5 you state, "I  was using a friends car and had been parking in what I believed to be private car park for residents and it was signed posted as such."

 

There are other posts referring to your address, his address, DVLA confirming no change of address and so forth. You were asked to provide clarification concerning this, but instead attacked one of the pre-eminent local authority posters. Hardly surprising that he responded as he did in post #16.

 

The Consumers Action Group is a self help forum and it is understood that many posters will have little or no understanding of how the systems which confront them work, but it is essential that you either provide a clear narrative or bullet point presentation of the situation so that others willing to help know exactly where you stand.

 

At the moment, it would seem that your friend (assuming that he is the registered keeper of the vehicle), is liable to this penalty and every mention of your involvement has absolutely nothing to do with that fact. Anything about failure to deliver paperwork to him is for him and him alone to resolve as in post #10, Of course it would simplify everything if he were to come on the forum himself!


My time as a Police Officer and subsequently time working within the Motor Trade gives me certain insights into the problems that consumers may encounter.

I have no legal qualifications.

If you have found my post helpful, please enhance my reputation by clicking on the Heart. Thank you

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I agree with Jamberson and Gick that the OP's posts are so confused and contradictory that it's impossible to make sense of them.  The OP says he appealed, not the RK, but says he used the RK's address.  In the OP he says he was not the driver but in a later post he says he was.  In the OP he says he has managed to get proof(?) that he was the owner but says in #5 that it's a friend's car.

 

OP - you need to follow Michael Browne's advice in #4.  Create a structured timeline (numbered paragraphs would help) explaining what has happened, what paperwork you have received and what replies you (or your friend?!) have made.  Keep the sequence of events in order.

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Posted (edited)

Never mind. Obviously I cant write as no one can make sense of it.

I will just delete the post.

Thanks for your help!

Edited by BankFodder
further edit

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Posted (edited)

you did state you were the owner and not the driver at the time in your opening post.

When people commented on this it may have been wise to reread it carefully and then explain things again carefully so all fo the information made sense and thar includes a timeline.

You might have meant to say you were not the keeper or whatever but what you did write is there for all to see so we comment on that, not on what you meant to say to the council

Edited by ericsbrother

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Yes I see where I have messed up.... so apologies to all for the confusion...but I have said never mind so do you all have to keep picking I have asked for the post to be deleted so just stop

 

When I originally started out to get advise I thought best to write from the owners perspective.... obviously when posting to the comments I have forgotten this and written as myself the driver

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The thread will not be deleted because it is a classic example of how not to write one or respond to caggers who are trying to help.

 

Just do not respond again and it will die a natural death. You can adjust your settings so that you do not receive further notifications should anyone add.

  • Thanks 1

My time as a Police Officer and subsequently time working within the Motor Trade gives me certain insights into the problems that consumers may encounter.

I have no legal qualifications.

If you have found my post helpful, please enhance my reputation by clicking on the Heart. Thank you

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