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    • ok looks like that's what you need to do. but keep it bare bones for now as post 5  
    • stuff and all if there no signed agreement in the return   dx  
    • 1st again why do you keep changing things before you send them   you've added counterclaim in to our std CPR 31:14 you sent? why? this opens you up to additional costs and I hope you didnt tick counterclaim when you did AOS on mcol too?   also I notice you've  played with our std OD defence above too...   pers I would refrain from continuing to change things as they are written in the frain they are for specific reasons.   your defence is due by 4pm Monday [day 33]   here are 2 versions you will ofcourse need to adapt them to lowells para no's and remove the NOA stuff as your docs show Lowell have complied with those. but don't forget to mention other documents provided to date notably statements contain no proof they came from Lloyds but rather Lowells own internal data system    dx   1. It is admitted with regards to the Defendant entering into an Agreement referred to in the Particulars of Claim ('the Agreement') with the [insert original creditor] . .  2. The defendant denies that the account exceeded the agreed overdraft limit due to overdrawing of funds but is as a result of unfair and extortionate bank charges/penalties being applied to the account. .  3. I refute the claimants claim is owed or payable. The amount claimed is comprised of amongst others default penalties/charges levied on the account for alleged late, missed or over limit payments. The court will be aware that these charge types and the recoverability thereof have been judicially declared to be susceptible to assessments of fairness under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 The Office of Fair Trading v Abbey National PLC and others (2009). I will contend at trial that such charges are unfair in their entirety. .  4. It is denied that the Claimant has the right to lay a claim due to contraventions of Section 136 of the Law of Property Act and Section 82A of the consumer crediticon Act 1974. The Claimant has yet to provide a copy of the Notice of Assignment its claim relies upon. .  5. The claimant is denied from added section 69 interest within the total claimed that as yet to be decided at the courts discretion. .  6. As per Civil Procedure Rule 16.5(4), it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed. .  The claimant is also put to strict proof to:-. .  (a) Provide a copy agreement/facility arrangement along with the Terms and conditions at inception, that this claim is based on.  (b) Provide a copy of the Notice served under 76(1) and 98(1) of the CCA1974 Demand /Recall Notice and Notice of Assignment.  (c) Provide a breakdown of their excessive charging/fees levied to the account with justification.  (d) Show how the Claimant has reached the amount claimed.  (e) Show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim.  (f) Show how they have complied with sections III & IV of Practice Direction - Pre-action Conduct. .  7. On receipt of this claim I requested documentation by way of a CPR 31.14 request dated [xxxxxxx] namely the Agreement and Termination Demand Notice referred to in the claimants Particulars of Claim. The Claimant has failed to comply with this request. .  By reason of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief. .  .............. or  Particulars of Claim  1.The claim is for the sum of 2470.56 in respect of monies owing pursuant to an overdraft facility under account number XXXXXX XXXXXXXXXX.  2.The debt was legally assigned by Santander UK Plc to the claimant and notice has been served.   3.The Defendant has failed to repay overdrawn sums owing under the terms and conditions of the bank account.   The Claimant claims:  The sum of 2470.56 Interest pursuant to s69 of the county courticon Act 1984 at a rate of 8.00 percent from the 7/04/2015 to the date hereof 14 days is the sum of 7.58Daily interest at the rate of .54  Costs Defence  The Defendant contends that the particulars of the claim are vague and generic in nature. The Defendant accordingly sets out its case below and relies on CPR r 16.5 (3) in relation to any particular allegation to which a specific response has not been made.   1. It is admitted with regards to the Defendant once having had banking facilities with the original creditor Santander Bank. It is denied that I am indebted for any alleged balance claimed.   2. Paragraph 2 is denied.I am not aware or ever receiving any Notice of Assignment pursuant to the Law and Property Act 1925. It is denied that the Claimant has the right to lay a claim due to contraventions of Section 136 of the Law of Property Act and Section 82A of the consumer crediticon Act 1974. The Claimant has yet to provide a copy of the Notice of Assignment its claim relies upon.   3. Paragraph 3 is denied. The Original Creditor has never served notice pursuant to 76(1) and 98(1) of the CCA1974  Any alleged amount claimed could only consist in the main of default penalties/charges levied on the account for alleged late, rejected or over limit payments. The court will be aware that these charge types and the recoverability thereof have been judicially declared to be susceptible to assessments of fairness under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 The Office of Fair Trading v Abbeyicon National PLC and others (2009). I will contend at trial that such charges are unfair in their entirety.  4. As per Civil Procedureicon Rule 16.5(4), it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed.  The claimant is also put to strict proof to:-.  (a) Provide a copy agreement/overdraft facility arrangement along with the Terms and conditions at inception that this claim is based on.  (b) Provide a copy of the Notice served under 76(1) and 98(1) of the CCA1974 Demand /Recall Notice and Notice of Assignment.  (c) Provide a breakdown of all excessive charging/fees and show how the Claimant has reached the amount claimed.   (d) Show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim.  (e) Show how they have complied with sections III & IV of Practice Direction - Pre-action Conduct.  5. On receipt of this claim I requested documentation by way of a CPR 31.14 request dated April 2015 namely the Agreement and Termination Demand Notice referred to in the claimants Particulars of Claim. The Claimant has failed to comply with this request.   By reason of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief.  Regards  Andy    
    • Hi   Just read your thread and looked at the Docs posted in your PDF.   1. from AST to rent a Car Parking space you need to have signed a Car Parking Agreement for a Space and for visitors you should have asked permission for another space in advance with a fee to pay. (i also assume renting a parking space would be at a cost)   2. You have no signed Car Parking Agreement nor visitor space agreement.   Did you not fully read that AST before you signed it and pick up what is stated about parking and ask them about this Car Parking Agreement and if you need one to park in the car park?   You could formally complain to them about what was verbally said to you but unless you have evidence of this it may be hard to prove.   You should also contact them and ask how you go about renting a Car Parking space/costs and about the Car Parking Agreement also what the process is for a visitor car parking space/costs.   You need to be aware that they could class you and your visitor as illegally parking in there car park without consent nor a signed car parking agreement which they could use as a Breach of your Tenancy Agreement so you need to be careful in how you are approaching this and where you are parking.   Just for info on checking Manchester Life website they have numerous buildings/apartments/car parks but you may be in a building where some of the apartments are leasehold and as part of there leasehold they may have purchased a car parking space in that building. (so how do you know you are not parking in a space that someone in the building has legally purchased?)
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squirlyline

UKCPM - operator pix - PCN - business zone - Trinity Park, Birmingham

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Hi,

It's been a long time since I've availed the services of CAG (2009, it appears), but I've finally acquired one of those speculative invoices that have been eluding me all this time, and am in need of some advice.

 

I received it unexpectedly (as in I didn't intend to contravene any private parking stipulation) on Friday just gone (26/7/19)

 

------- Using 'pinned' info request as follows---------

For PCN's received through the post [ANPR camera capture]

 

please answer the following questions.

 

1 Date of the infringement  -  17/07/19 18:58

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date]  -  19/07/19

 

3 Date received  -  26/07/19

 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?]  -  Y

 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event?  -  Y

 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal]  -  N

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up  -  N/A

 

7 Who is the parking company?  -  CPM (UK Car Park Management)

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town]  -  Trinity Park, Birmingham (more a cluster of carparks and businesses around a roadway)

 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under.  -  IPC

---------

 

I pulled over to the side of this road which I saw going round the roundabout which the road leads off, to receive an urgent phone call.

I am attaching some retrospective pics from google map and streetview to show the setup (mostly Google-captured Oct 2018). 

Incidentally the printed infringement pics are pretty dull and the number plate can not be made out

(though I'm sure the online version is probably quite clear)

 

I didn't notice anything about it being a managed car park complex on 'entering' the road and only noticed there were a number of signs that were relating to parking that seemed to be about the car parks that were scattered around, which I had no intention of using.

 

At any rate I could not read the print on these whilst driving down the road and the print was incredibly small and it was unlit (see the picture of the Google Street View of one of the signs I have screenshot).

 

I pulled over behind a couple of other cars that were milling around that turned out to be taxis; as there are no visible cameras (and none that I could see wandering down on streetview) and considering the angle of the 'infringement' photos I suspect they were captured by another taxi, waiting in the area and doubling up as an enforcer (the 2 photos are of more or less the same scene and not an entry and exit as you might have in a normal managed carpark zone).. may be I'm an eternal cynic! Other than taxis and the odd other car driving in and out, the carparks were relatively abandoned, being evening time.

 

I guess the first question is do I ignore them until I am obliged to engage, or send them a message saying

'I have no intention of paying' as there was no agreed 'contract' since the car was pulled over on the side of a roadway (not in the carparks) and there was no clear and unambiguous signage to imply that, what looks like a normal road, is otherwise?

 

Thanks in anticipation!

 

CPM_PCN_Trinity_Park_(3).pdf

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urm so not ANPR capture then

some little spy in a car .

 


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I think so!

I don't like to speculatively accuse (well in certain circumstances I probably do 😏) but I would proffer that the taxis (assuming that the PPC is not wasting their time speculatively sending their own spy cars) are perhaps de facto agents; paying a usage fee for waiting in the zone for customers at the airport, train station and elsewhere, perhaps with monetary incentive! I might be over-thinking it at this stage!

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Now you have a choice as to how to deal with this, you owe them nothing because it isnt a cvar park, there are no signs and you were there less than the 10 minutes grace period even the bandits of the IPC have to adhere to so they have wasted their money getting your keeper details.

 

The IPC will, however support its member regardless of anythingn they do to break the law or the CoP that the IPC themselves drew up because if they didnt then there is no point joining the IPC in the first place.

 

You can appeal and lose that appeal because ther IAS will insist you prove that you werent there for 10 minutes despite the picture luiterally being a snapshot and they will also say that the signs are available tyo read if you had bothered to drive a bit further and find then even though thye dont apply to the roadway and the intention of the yellow lines is to prohibit parking, not invite you to do so.

 

Or you can let them waste their time and money chasing you and only respond to Will and John at Gladstones Solicitors (IPC owners) threatograms rather than to any of the bog paper you will receive in the interim.

  • Haha 1

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2 hours ago, ericsbrother said:

...only respond to Will and John at Gladstones Solicitors (IPC owners) threatograms rather than to any of the bog paper you will receive in the interim.

😁

Thanks for your sardonic reply ericsbrother, I like the bit about bog paper.

 

I was going to say choices aren't my strong point, but I'm wondering whether the 'third' way that I have seen mentioned (on stickies here and elsewhere round the web) would be worth pursuing; that is sending a message (not an appeal) to the company to state that there is no intention of paying and perhaps drawing attention to any flaws that would be their negotiating argument in a possible court hearing (such as a PCN for pulling over on the side of a road which is not demonstrably signposted to be part of a parking complex)[of course making no reference to being the driver]. Hoping that they may take the hint that it might not be worth the escalation!

 

Incidentally I was probably stationary there for well over 10 mins after the period of the supposed first contravention pic (and returned a little while later to the same spot for a significantly longer period, though I don't think the same car and camera were there that time, possibly a different car), but I don't know if they would have any further pics than the 2 shown on the PCN (ie online pics that you can view through their site) to argue on that point. I have not attempted to go on to look at them in case it flagged up that I was engaging in the process too.

 

Let me know what you think and whether this might be a futile approach!

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not worth it

not seen it here in recent times either

probably stems from the time before the changes {POFA etc]

 

you are quite safe to ignore until /unless you get a letter of claim

esp as its under 10mins.

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Thanks dx100uk, so I'll just kick back until such a time that, for reasons of delusion, they put in a claim.

If I get to the solicitor stage, should I come back here, or wait for a summons before doing so?

 

PS the linked 'ignore' in your last sentence unfortunately displays the old advice about not ignoring and replying to the owner and PPC, I think it was the sticky I was referring to here.

 

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5 hours ago, dx100uk said:

you are quite safe to ignore until /unless you get a letter of claim

which means...

 

 

as for ignore

we had a recent change of forum software

the ignore link appears to have reverted to an earlier version..TA


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:crazy:

 

if you get a letter of claim...comeback here..that's NOT a court summons

 

an N1 claimform comes from northants bulk court NOT a paperwork only fake/tame solicitor...

dx

 

 

 


PLEASE DONT HIT QUOTE IF THE LAST POST IS THE ONE YOU ARE REPLYING TOO.

MAKES A THREAD TWICE AS LONG TO SCROLL THROUGH!

please do not post jpg images directly to a topic..USE PDF ....READ UPLOAD.

 

WE CAN'T GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU SEND ME A LINK TO YOUR THREAD - I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER HELP THERE

Single Premium PPI Q&A Read Here

Reclaim mis-sold PPI Read Here

Reclaim Bank Account, Loan & Credit Card Charges Read Here

The CAG Interest Tutorial Read Here

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Posted (edited)

 

Thanks for clarifying, never been on the receiving end of one of those!

Edited by squirlyline

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ypu write anything adn they will say your appeal has been rejected and they wil think that you are averse to a long battle over this and will want to settle up if they just push you a little harder.

 

By not responding they have to pay money to chase you and wont know what you are thinking until they have spent enough to amke it unviable to try their luck with a court hearing.

 

Often that menas thej making a court claim and then bottling out when they see you have a defence.

 

use the time to do your homework, gather evidence in the way of pictures, maps, newspaper reports, planning applications and consents etc so you dont ahve to do it all in a hurry later when the actual signs and paintwork my well have changed.

 

As for being there more than 10 minutes, if they have piccies of your car even in slightly ifferent locatiosn then that willmake them look like incompetent liars if they try and use that at court.

 

However, do not mislead us by omitting details that are important for the type of advice we give as that will be based on the facts presented and you could end up trashing all of your other evidence because your honesty is open to question.

 

If you were there ofr 10 minutes or so then that is fine, if you were there for half an hour then say so, it doesnt chaneg the lack of contract but it does take ther CoP of the IPC out of the equation

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1 minute ago, ericsbrother said:

By not responding they have to pay money to chase you and wont know what you are thinking until they have spent enough to amke it unviable to try their luck with a court hearing.

 

Good point, that is the otherside of the coin, and I hadn't thought that they may treat a refusal letter as an appeal and willingness to try and make it go away!

 

Quote

Often that menas thej making a court claim and then bottling out when they see you have a defence.

use the time to do your homework, gather evidence in the way of pictures, maps, newspaper reports, planning applications and consents etc so you dont ahve to do it all in a hurry later when the actual signsa dn paintwork my well have changed

 

I guess I'm going to have to get busy now and prepare for a potential case; as it is the pictures I posted here are all Googlemap streetview (dated Oct 2018), although they would have been the very same parking signs and the area setup should have been the same as when I used it, ie no private parking zone enforcement sign on entry detailing conditions etc. The thing is I'm unlikely to be going back there anytime this side of 2020, as it is 60 miles away, so do I just rely on streetview pics?

 

I did previously look for Trinity Park and UK CPM, but did not come up with anything on a basic Google search. So I hope I might find something yet, or at least related with a similar setup. I'll try and draw down the planning applications etc, but I did notice that whilst 'walking' Googlemap's streetview, when I clicked a couple of arrows past where my car had been, the view reverted to an older scan from Aug 2009 where there appeared to be no PPC enforcement (see attached PDF).

 

In regard to the timestamped 'contravention' photos on the PCN invoice, would these be the only photos admissible at a hearing? It relates to about 5 mins, but as I was there for somewhat longer (maybe 25 mins) at that stretch and returned a little while later for considerably longer, would they likely have other photos to demonstrate a longer period and hence more leverage to their claim (there is viewing area on the CPM site; but I didn't want to access it in case it flagged up that I was engaging)

Screenshot of Trinity Park Aug 2009- Google Maps.jpg

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you get yur evidence gathered and use that to rebut what they come up with.

If they have a wodge of pictures they havent made available with the NTK then the POFA says they arent admissible. that wont stop them trying but we can pick holes in that when the time comes if it does indeed get that far.

In the meanwhile piccies of where you were parked, the entrance to that private road from the public highway, the entrance to the car park further on etc all needed so we can gte a better picture of what is there overall.

If the signage is deficient then you win regardless of the interpretation of the words on the signs but we are going for hammering them for more than that

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Posted (edited)

Thanks for your supportive reply eb and encouragement.

 

Are the pics from Googlemaps streetview that I put in the original-post pdf sufficient for the above requirements (they date stamped Oct '18) and show all points, though I don't have a close up of the sign from streetview close enough to read the fine print; I can perhaps zoom in and capture it and 'finally' read what it says too. I can take more screenshots to highlight any signs at various points, perhaps for your perusal if for nothing else.

 

The question remains though, as to whether I need current photos, as the place is about 1 1/2 hours away, and I have no need to return there foreseeably.. maybe the Googlemap pics without the data tags visible?

Edited by squirlyline

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Yes and no.

I would get decent images of the signs as they cant be read properly on goggleyes anyway. you wont need them for a good while as it will take  a year for this to reach a stage where they become vital but bear in mind that thigs change so your own images that are penecontemporaneous ( that means at about the same time but has more letters) with the parking event will be likely to be needed in the ling run so the sooner you get them the better.

If you know someone who lives that way ask them to do the necessaries and email the piccies to you

 

If it ever gets to a court claim you want to be able to chuck the kitchen sink at it.

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