American Express withdrew my Credit Limit

[zubo]

Hi Zubo

I have just returned from a short break in Spain, not more than 5 minutes ago. I have read your letter and it looks good to me, albeit I am not a legal beaver, but it does make sense to me.

Let me know how you get on.

Regards

DS

 

Thanks DS,

 

I wrote it in anger - it is then better to sit on it until the anger subsides, and I have rewritten it, still with same salient point but so that it is better structured and grammatically correct - well as best I can

 

So we will see...

[Cristal]

Hi Zubo -

 

Looks like this thread is really expanding! As you know, I've also rec'd an application form from Newman and Amex as an 'executed agreement'. there is no authorised Amex signature, so am assuming this negates its validity. Amex also conveniently sent 13 pages of T&C, unsigned. I do wish you luck with your letter. It appears ultra logical, though that means nothing when dealing with these people.

[zubo]

Hi Zubo -

 

Looks like this thread is really expanding! As you know, I've also rec'd an application form from Newman and Amex as an 'executed agreement'. there is no authorised Amex signature, so am assuming this negates its validity. Amex also conveniently sent 13 pages of T&C, unsigned. I do wish you luck with your letter. It appears ultra logical, though that means nothing when dealing with these people.

 

Cristal

 

They have shot themselves in the foot - look at those T&Cs, I had mine today look at my comments below in another thread - I am about to compose a response:

 

No, we keep disagreeing on this, an application even with everything on it is still an Application and requires the Agreement. A great recent example has just come to light: I have not posted onto my Amex thread, but all I had from Amex was my original Amex application. I rejected it and complained about many of their one sided processes. Anyway, they finally gave me a response to my complaints and how they assessed me etc etc and anyway, its all there in the attached T&C which you agreed to.

Guess what they sent me?

A 13 page document headed CREDIT CARD AGREEMENT REGULATED BY THE CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974.

Brilliant... This IS a CCA Agreement it has everything in it except....

I havent seen this, its not got my signature nor dates nor their signature dated.

This is priceless to me, it proves what I have said. The application is just that (certainly now I know for Amex) - it is pre-contractual - the executed document follows after - mine is unsigned by me, it is completely unenforceable.

 

Z

[PaulW922]

Zubo - I have had a torrid time with Amex too. For the past four years various debt collectors have contacted me for money they say I owe to Amex. On each occasion I sent them my letter from Amex in 2003 confirming my account was clear and that I owed them nothing. Finally in December Amex sold the 'debt' to Cap Quest! I fired off another copy of the letter - Cap Quest were not happy (not that I care) because, presumably, they had paid money to buy a debt that did not exist.

 

The advice I would give to anyone who holds any type of Amex card - even if you have never been in arrears - is to cut it up and send it back. One day Amex might suddenly start demand ££££s from you for no reason. There is no point in having an Amex card anyway - it costs more than other cards and is accepted in less places. Amex is an expensive waste of time and the world would not miss it.

[zubo]

Zubo - I have had a torrid time with Amex too. For the past four years various debt collectors have contacted me for money they say I owe to Amex. On each occasion I sent them my letter from Amex in 2003 confirming my account was clear and that I owed them nothing. Finally in December Amex sold the 'debt' to Cap Quest! I fired off another copy of the letter - Cap Quest were not happy (not that I care) because, presumably, they had paid money to buy a debt that did not exist.

 

The advice I would give to anyone who holds any type of Amex card - even if you have never been in arrears - is to cut it up and send it back. One day Amex might suddenly start demand ££££s from you for no reason. There is no point in having an Amex card anyway - it costs more tahn other cards and is accepted in less places. Amex is an expensive waste of time and the world would not miss it.

 

Paul

 

I completely agree. In my brief dealings with them I had assumed that all the different runarounds and problems I had with them was there way of trying to manipulate the situation. I am now convinced that I gave them too much credit - they simply are an expensive incompetent bunch of morons with names like Executive Customer Relationship Manager meaning looks after the bad ledger rather badly person. Cristal - mine is a different person to yours.

 

So my advice to anyone out there reading this, when you CCA them - if you get the signed 13 pager agreement then you have the real mccoy otherwise, send the application back and slap a default notice on them and ask for your money back.

 

Z

[ukaviator]

Hi Gang

 

Even though the account goes into dispute, you must still make payments to your account. If you owe money then it's payments as usual, unless there is an arrangment to pay a reduced sum. This i believe could have been avoided. Now you have to try and get the default removed as well.

When you finally get your charges added up, you should ask for the default to be removed. Charges and default claim together.

Any payments made will then be adjusted when they finally payout.

 

Ukaviator

[zubo]

Hi Gang

 

Even though the account goes into dispute, you must still make payments to your account. If you owe money then it's payments as usual, unless there is an arrangment to pay a reduced sum. This i believe could have been avoided. Now you have to try and get the default removed as well.

When you finally get your charges added up, you should ask for the default to be removed. Charges and default claim together.

Any payments made will then be adjusted when they finally payout.

 

Ukaviator

 

UKA,

 

Depends how you wish to approach this. My own strategy has been that if I Discover that there is even the smallest possibility of an unexecuted agreement then I place the account in dispute by notifying the Creditor that I am investigating the lawfullness of the account and will resume payments when these are verified. That seems reasonable. Continuing to make payments I would perceive as, having discovered a problem ie upon Discovery, continuing to pay is an admission that you are obliged to make a payment.

 

In my particular case I believe that my application was pre-contractual, Amex did not execute the agreement - simply provided the credit-token, I believed that the arrangement was lawful and made purchases and the demanded payments which were not given freely with consent but under a perceived obligation which I subsequently discovered to be false.

 

I see no point in continuing to pay on a non-existing agreement - it is completely unenforceable even by a court. The debt is certainly there, however payment, consentual rights to share data, enforcement and default are not permitted. The only thing I am considering is whether to seek repayment of all the payments made unlawfully to Amex. There is case law to support this even if the creditor is unaware that they are unlawful.

 

Z

[InKogneeToh]

Hi Zubo

 

Have you posted up a link to this 'application form' anywhere? I may have seen it but can't remember where and would like to take another look if that's okay?

 

Regards, Pam

[zubo]

Hi Zubo

 

Have you posted up a link to this 'application form' anywhere? I may have seen it but can't remember where and would like to take another look if that's okay?

 

Regards, Pam

 

Pam always appreciate your views.

Here is my Internet application, printed of signed and sent to them, the quality is poor in fact illegible really:

 

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexapp1.gif

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexapp2.gif

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexapp3.gif

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexapp4.gif

 

Here is the unsigned agreement they recently sent to me saying that I had agreed to these T&C, see the difference?

 

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexagree1.gif

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexagree2.gif

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexagree3.gif

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexagree4.gif

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexagree5.gif

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexagree6.gif

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexagree7.gif

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexagree8.gif

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexagree9.gif

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexagree10.gif

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexagree11.gif

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexagree12.gif

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexagree13.gif

 

What do you think?

 

Z

[pudsters14]

Hey Zubo, I'm subscribing to ur thread, will be starting my own soon, in the meantime, if you check out the Consumer Credit Act thread, i've put a link on there which will take you to the copy of the application form we have been sent... it has no APR, no repayment details and is missing some other stuff, we were never informed of a cancellation period as it says and I really do not think that my husband signed the 13 page thing that you have posted. Anyways will keep you updated as I have sent them a letter stating what they have sent is not the executed agreement and that I would like them to send it within the time limit (which runs out on the 5th April...) will wait and see! Think I have put some of this on the CCA thread so sorry for duplications if I have! lol... it's late and i've been stood out in the cold all night watching rugby so my brain has also got a little bit frozen! lol... I'm going to bed now coz on a conference 2mrw but will update 2mrw night....AE should get my letter either 2mrw or Tuesday...lets see what they have got to say to that! :grin:

[InKogneeToh]

Pam always appreciate your views.

Here is my Internet application, printed of signed and sent to them, the quality is poor in fact illegible really:

 

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexapp1.gif

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexapp2.gif

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexapp3.gif

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexapp4.gif

 

Here is the unsigned agreement they recently sent to me saying that I had agreed to these T&C, see the difference?

 

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexagree1.gif

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexagree2.gif

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexagree3.gif

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexagree4.gif

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexagree5.gif

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexagree6.gif

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexagree7.gif

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexagree8.gif

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexagree9.gif

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexagree10.gif

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexagree11.gif

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexagree12.gif

http://www.knowledgecommunity.co.uk/cag/amexagree13.gif

 

What do you think?

 

Z

 

Hi

 

I can see how poor the quality of the application is but can you see on that document -

1) any reference to a credit limit (or how it will be determined)

2) An interest rate

3) repayment details

 

Does it have yours and their signatures on it?

 

If yes to all of above it 'may' be enforceable on an order of the court only. I know that you view this as simply an application but if all the prescribed terms (above) and your signature are there, even if other required information is not, then it would be classed as improperly executed and it would then be down to the judge's discretion as to whether it could be enforced, in part or in full.

 

It is not uncommon for full T&Cs to be on a separate document and in this case they are indeed very full!

 

A reference to these T&Cs 'should' be made in the signature document but the lack of this reference only comes under the 'improperly executed' label and does not make the signed document totally unenforceable.

 

Regards, Pam

[zubo]

Pam

 

Thanks, the answer to your questions was probably.

 

Your feedback and comments are always appreciated.

 

Notwithstanding that, I will continue with the assertions in the previous post.

I see no reference in the second set of documents to the 13 pages being Terms & Conditions, it is quite clearly entitled Credit Card Agreement Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and it remains unsigned by both parties. It is the document I would expect to receive in response to the application, it's existance clearly indicates I should have received it and the absence of a signed one makes it impossible for Amex to enforce and the Court equally cannot do so.

 

I am writing to Amex to that effect.

 

Z

[zubo]

my response:

 

Thank you for your letter of the 15th March.

I note your comments and acknowledge receipt of the true copy of the agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

Regrettably this agreement has not been signed by my and as such you are still in default under S77-s79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and any attempt to enforce this is unlawful. You are not permitted to share my data and you may not register defaults against me, place any charges against the account nor sell the account whilst in default.

You have therefore no agreement with my consent, therefore by this action you have unlawfully supplied my personal information to 3rd parties including Newman and caused me distress and likely hardship. I am instructing you to remove all references from all 3rd parties you have notified including but not limited to Defaults and I will be seeking compensation for the distress and likely hardship you have caused me.

Please confirm your compliance with my requests,

 

 

Z

[pudsters14]

Right Zubo... as we expected blank CCA agreement has arrived, can post if will be of use, have started my own thread... heres the link... please let me know what you think,.. I think ur an Amex expert now! Lol

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/other-institutions/77343-mr-pudsters14-vv-american.html#post677112

[zubo]

Right Zubo... as we expected blank CCA agreement has arrived, can post if will be of use, have started my own thread... heres the link... please let me know what you think,.. I think ur an Amex expert now! Lol

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/other-institutions/77343-mr-pudsters14-vv-american.html#post677112

 

Pudster

 

You need to do exactly the same as me - steal my last letter - except use whichever DCA they are using instead of Newmans. Just be prepared for them to start hassling you.

 

Z

[pudsters14]

Hiya Zubo, ive just put a question on my thread for you, can quite remember what I asked? oh yeah.... my account doesn't officially go into default until 5th April, should I wait until then before I notify them that my account is in dispute and cancel payments etc?

[zubo]

How surprising.

 

Newmans have written to me asking me to phone them.

 

Amex is stupid - Newmans cannot get involved - I am considering writing to them both that they are in contravention of DPA.

 

When I get a moment that is....

 

Z

[TUTTSI]

Hi Zubo, well there is a surprise! the right and the left do not know what is going on! clever or what!!

Yes I would write letters to both parties.

DS

[Cristal]

How surprising.

 

Newmans have written to me asking me to phone them.

 

Amex is stupid - Newmans cannot get involved - I am considering writing to them both that they are in contravention of DPA.

 

When I get a moment that is....

 

Hi Zubo - I know this is an Amex/Newmans thread but I know how expert you are on CCA Agreements and wanted to pass on a reply from Mint to my CCA and SAR as it relates to the CCA (I'd put it on the main CCA thread but that has become too labyrinthian for me!).

 

Mint says: 'Your request for documents contains some misconceptions about yout entitlement to information in a specified form and our obligations to supply that information. So that there are no misunderstanding (sic) here we will set the record straight on the format of the information we are obliged to provide you.

 

........We are obliged to provide you with a 'true' copy of the credit agreement and a statement of financial information realting to the account, namely, the state of the account, amount currently due, with amounts and due dates of future payments that still require to be made. In terms of the CCA copy document regulations, the 'true' copy requirement can be satisfied by providing a copy agreement at the date the card agreement was made and providing that plus a copy of the current terms of the card agreement. I enclose the s78 (1) information.'

 

They enclosed the usual Application Form, sans limit, APR and interest info, plus an unsigned and undated CCA agreement, addressed to me with my card number on it and credit limit. I'm sure I never rec'd this before.

 

I sent them the usual, Zubo-esque response but I thought you might like to see how the CCP defines its legal position. Has to be wrong, doesn't it?

 

Apologies if this is an intrusion on your thread but I posted it as I think it feeds into your ongoing quest for the defintion of a credit agreement ! Cx

[zubo]

How surprising.

 

Newmans have written to me asking me to phone them.

 

Amex is stupid - Newmans cannot get involved - I am considering writing to them both that they are in contravention of DPA.

 

When I get a moment that is....

 

Hi Zubo - I know this is an Amex/Newmans thread but I know how expert you are on CCA Agreements and wanted to pass on a reply from Mint to my CCA and SAR as it relates to the CCA (I'd put it on the main CCA thread but that has become too labyrinthian for me!).

 

Mint says: 'Your request for documents contains some misconceptions about yout entitlement to information in a specified form and our obligations to supply that information. So that there are no misunderstanding (sic) here we will set the record straight on the format of the information we are obliged to provide you.

 

........We are obliged to provide you with a 'true' copy of the credit agreement and a statement of financial information realting to the account, namely, the state of the account, amount currently due, with amounts and due dates of future payments that still require to be made. In terms of the CCA copy document regulations, the 'true' copy requirement can be satisfied by providing a copy agreement at the date the card agreement was made and providing that plus a copy of the current terms of the card agreement. I enclose the s78 (1) information.'

 

They enclosed the usual Application Form, sans limit, APR and interest info, plus an unsigned and undated CCA agreement, addressed to me with my card number on it and credit limit. I'm sure I never rec'd this before.

 

I sent them the usual, Zubo-esque response but I thought you might like to see how the CCP defines its legal position. Has to be wrong, doesn't it?

 

Apologies if this is an intrusion on your thread but I posted it as I think it feeds into your ongoing quest for the defintion of a credit agreement ! Cx

 

No intrusion at all.

What is interesting is their very narrow interpretation of the Act - like someone has read 78(1)

 

shall give the debtor a copy of the executed

agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement

signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it

is practicable for him to refer,--

Consumer Credit Act 1974 (c.39)

(a) the state of the account,

(b) the amount, if any currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the

creditor, and

© the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not

draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement

by the debtor to the creditor.

 

This clearly ignores reading ALL the other things which must be in the original true copy of the signed executed agreement. They have also clearly missed the fact that an agreement cannot be reconstructed - why send you the current T&C - you (might have) signed on the basis of previous T&C, and why send the true agreement unsigned... amazing.

 

The more I read the more I believe that very very few CCP have complied with the Act.

 

Z

[Cristal]

Z - any news from Amex? I sent them a stiff letter and Default Notice and reminded them it was illegal for them to share my details with 3rd parties. No reply from Amex but a letter from Newmans! Whining about how they haven't heard from me in weeks and stating they will 'discuss my file with the client'. Followed by a grammatically bizarre sentence which basically threatens 'further action'. Oh, and they now state a balance that is different from the other 3 balances previously stated. I've now written an even stiffer letter to heads of various Amex depts. and included copies of all my correspondence. Curious to see where this goes......

 

Also, have rec'd an interesting letter from Mint, which I'll mention on my MINT thread.....

 

hope you're well...CX

[zubo]

Z - any news from Amex? I sent them a stiff letter and Default Notice and reminded them it was illegal for them to share my details with 3rd parties. No reply from Amex but a letter from Newmans! Whining about how they haven't heard from me in weeks and stating they will 'discuss my file with the client'. Followed by a grammatically bizarre sentence which basically threatens 'further action'. Oh, and they now state a balance that is different from the other 3 balances previously stated. I've now written an even stiffer letter to heads of various Amex depts. and included copies of all my correspondence. Curious to see where this goes......

 

Also, have rec'd an interesting letter from Mint, which I'll mention on my MINT thread.....

 

hope you're well...CX

 

hey cristal sweetie,

 

I have been utterly unbelievably lazy.........

 

.. well sort of... I need to update all my threads AND more important get responses out, but its a combination of the weather and drink.....

.. actually I have been unbelievably ridiculously busy at work.... been trying to wrap up a lot of projects ... or delay them because I'm on hols from Wednesday 18th up until end of April......:cool::cool:

 

Z

[TUTTSI]

Hi Zubu

I take iy you won't be taking AMEX with you on your holidays!!

We are all interested with how it is going!

Hope you have a great holiday.

Regards

DS

[kippy2]

this thread puzzles me coz me ive claimed twice now on amex personal, one old card and one new. no reduction on our credit limit.(won both times without court claim) but we havent claimed on our business amex.(nothing to claim there)

 

so why have peeps had their credit limit reduced?

 

the mind boggles how amex work?

 

i must admit ive skimmed this thread as its getting rather long but having said that i did claim/write back last august.

[zubo]

this thread puzzles me coz me ive claimed twice now on amex personal, one old card and one new. no reduction on our credit limit.(won both times without court claim) but we havent claimed on our business amex.(nothing to claim there)

 

so why have peeps had their credit limit reduced?

 

the mind boggles how amex work?

 

i must admit ive skimmed this thread as its getting rather long but having said that i did claim/write back last august.

 

Kimmy,

 

Amex started it.... I thought that they were one of the better CCP but their arrogance is unbelievable. I couldnt resist taking their agreement & processes apart to teach them a lesson.

 

A little update now:

 

They wrote back a few weeks ago sending me yet another copy of my signed application form this time it has been magnified by about 10. but in parts is still illegible. The writer said she had done everything I had asked and if I had any further queries to write to the Banking Ombudsman.

On the same day I received a letter from Newmans thanking me for £47 and requesting payment of remaining arrears. Newmans have been calling every day and I have ignored them. Just had another letter from Newmans saying that Amex are going to take me to court. Actually answered a Newmans call yesterday, declined to give my personal info, told the lad that I would be writing this weekend.

 

I'll post the letter in a minute once I find it - Pams latest contribution to the workshop.

 

Z