One Parking Solutions Windscreen PCN - no permit - own residential Parking Space.

[James222201]

Hello,

 

I am the legal owner of an underground parking bay.
The management company (RTM) has hired a parking company to supervise the place.

 

I have never given a verbal or writen consent to supervise my bay.

 

I got a ticket because I failed to display my permit. Mainly, I forgot to place it in a visible place.

 

My questions are:

Do they have the right to fine and persue the owner? I am sure they have a database of the cars registered.

I believe their system if you do not have the permit we fine you, it is clearly based on providing bad service so the people to get caught.

The company should be rensponsible and check.

 

Who is the authority rensponsible to let them operate in this way?  I want to report them.

I did appeal saying that I am the ownwer of the bay and the car, the permit is every day there for the last two years, they should be aware of this, they issued the permit.

However, their response on the appeal was very typical, not really responding on what I have written to them, but just saying that there was no permit, the photos show so etc etc.

 

Do I have to pay their penalty? do they have any legal base? 

Do I not have rights as an owner of the bay and the car?

 

Thanks for any valuable help in advance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[king12345]

Are you the owner of the freehold of the parking bay or the leaseholder?

It makes a difference to whether you should display or not the permit.

In any case, don't pay anything and the private parking experts will guide you.

[James222201]

Thanks  very much for your time.

 

It is a leasehold building.

There is an RTM in place (run by some owners)

 

I doubt there is a contact between the lease holder and the parking company. Not 100% but I can ask.

I am sure the lease holder does not want to be involved in these and lets the RTM run the place as long as he is happy with their operations.

 

[Ethel Street]

Similar cases have come up here before and you need firstly to look at a lot of paperwork to see if the Private Parking Company (PPC) has a right to do this.

 

Sounds like you own a leasehold flat which includes the exclusive right to park in a designated parking space. Is that right? If so what does your lease say about the parking space? It's quite common for the Lease to say something like 'the use of the parking space is subject to such rules and regulations stipulated from time to time by the lessor'.  Many different ways it could be worded but the gist of it is that the lessor retains the right under the lease to regulate the parking space even though it forms part of your leasehold. If the lease does say that then probably the lessor has the power to impose a permit system and penalties for non-display and appoint a PPC.

 

Then if the lease does say that has the lessor given the RTM the power to implement parking regulation and appoint a PPC on behalf of the lessor - given the power formally in writing? If not it's doubtful the RTM has that power.

 

Even if the PPC does have the authorisation to issue PNCs you then go on to the whole question of whether the PNC in your case is valid - is the signage adequate and compliant, is the PNC compliant, have timescales been met etc etc?

Edited July 24, 2019 by Ethel Street

[king12345]

As far as i know, the parking company would need the landlord permission to operate, not the leaseholders'.

Then of course the landlord would ask the opinion of the leaseholders,  after all they live there.

[Ethel Street]

1 hour ago, Ethel Street said:

 

 

Even if the PPC does have the authorisation to issue PNCs you then go on to the whole question of whether the PNC in your case is valid - is the signage adequate and compliant, is the PNC compliant, have timescales been met etc etc?

 

PNC = PCN 

[dx100uk]

they cannot fine you

neither can they issue penalty notices.

 

dx

 

[ericsbrother]

 

Ok you start off by stating you own a patch of land and then backtrack so casuing confusion over the exact status of the land in question.

So, is the parking space shown on the deeds for the flat or does the lease mention a parking space that is for the sole use of the leaseholder? If not does the lease mention allocated parking?

 

understand something,

in developments like this the parking co cant make ANY money legally so they invent rules that dont really apply but enforce them as most people dont understand and the management company for the development are just as ignorant.

 

the freeholder wont have invited the bandits to make money from his property so you can be sure that they wont be interested in any complaint unless you sue them for harassment or the like and then they will just blame thier employees and say that the management co are just agents, nowt to do with us guv.

 

Now it can be said that by accepting the permit to park in your own space you have accepted the contract with the parking bandits and thus they can go after you so appealing was a silly thing to do as you may well have created a contract where none existed before.

 

so tell us about the relationship between the parking space and your flat and we can help you unravel the rest of this mess.

[James222201]

 

@Ethel StreetThank you for your comment.

 

All the bays are numbered and they marked on the planning permission (which is included on the contact). 

I believe that other than the landlord (and the lease holder) no one else has rights to regulate on individual bays.

 

The RTM was formed after I moved in the building, there has been no actual consent towards hiring a Parking company. Actually, I had expressed my objections since I feel that there is absolutely no need to bring someone to police a secured underground parking where access can be gained with a remote control etc. 

 

Well after the incident, I have asked the RTM to remove my bay from the particular scheme (pending response)

 

In they appeal, I told them that I am the legal owner, so rejecting the appeal then they are clearly committing fraud  (if they really not leagaly authorised). If in any chance they have been given permission (even by the lease holder) as long as I have not been clearly informed that my rights on my properlty have been revoked or restricted, to me is misleading which again leads to fraudulent  actions.

 

Obviously theses are my thoughts since I am not an expert but I am determined to find out and if possible even move legally against them because I believe that many people suffer from their actions.

 

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Even if the PPC does have the authorisation to issue PNCs you then go on to the whole question of whether the PNC in your case is valid - is the signage adequate and compliant, is the PNC compliant, have timescales been met etc etc?

 

Not sure what to check here.

[Ethel Street]

Thinking about it a bit more, clauses saying the lessor has the right to make rules about the parking space are more likely (and make more sense) if there were a general car parking area for residents with no guaranteed individual spaces. As you say, why is any regulation by a PPC needed when you have exclusive right to use a numbered space?

 

You are right to challenge the PPC's authority.

[king12345]

Did i read this correctly???

We are talking about a "secured underground parking where access can be gained with a remote control" and parking bays are numbered and individually assigned. 

Who's the genius who gave access to these cowboys to issue pcn???

They're surely getting a cut, no doubt about it.

That's what you should start contesting, of course after telling the cowboys to go back to the wild west shovelling cows' manure.

[brassnecked]

Appealing might not be a good idea, withdrawing any implied consent for them to police your bay, as you disagreed with introduction might be another angle, others may have thoughts on this as eventually the PPC may be silly enough to try to take you to court.  Are you aware if any of your fellow residents have fallen foul of this needless employment of a parking Cowboy?

[ericsbrother]

you still havent actually answered my question, does the parking space come with the flat in its lease or is it allocated parking and the parking spaces all belong to the freeholder but are  used the leaseholder under conditions?

 

And yes, most of these aprking co's get access to residentail developments becasue soemone in the management co get a kickback. Now you need to find out who signed them up and hold them to account. this many mean getting other residents to join you and hold an EGM to boot the current members off the management committee but many flasts will be rented outy and the owners wont give a stuff but at least start asking the questions and making noise.

In the meanwhile what does the lease say about parking- dont guess or paraphrase, have a look and tell us

[James222201]

#ericsbrother

All,

 

Thanks a lot for your support!!!

I am away at the moment...I will double check the deed when back...

 

I am pretty sure the parking space is bought with the property...there are flats that have no parking space. The managing agent (which is working with the current parking company) does not give remote controls to these residents (for accessing the parking area...)

 

BTW - The RTM said that they are not aware if there is a certain agreement that (legally or illegally) restricts my rights as a landlord - They are looking into it...

 

If they come back (before I have the chance to check the deed) saying that I am not restricted...this will answer your question too...

 

I ll be back on this as soon as I have further news

 

[brassnecked]

The very issue of the keyfob, would indicate that there is no cactual need for a PPC to infest the development, might be worth meeting with other leaseholders who have the fobs to discuss the issue and how many others have invoiced as you were.

[ericsbrother]

thats as maybe brassnecked but it has never stopped a dodgy deal going ahead even when the parking co know they ahve no chance of doing anything lawfully, they just ignore the law and hope for the money to come rolling in.

 

now suing the management co may be successful if it can be proved that they have caused harassment or other detriment but it would be more usual to go after the parking co. If the push comes to the shove I would be tempeted to name them both on a court form and let them fight amongst themselves as to who should pay the damages.

 

If the OP does indeed have proper control of their own parking space then there is nothing for the RTM to look into, they have just caused the harassment and they should be told in no unceertainterms that they are in the firing line regardless of anything they do to try and sort out this mess short of booting the parking co out at their own personal expense

[brassnecked]

Agree ericsbrother, Op should be looking at going after both if Lease gives absolute right to space with no conditions or hindrance

[James222201]

so this is from the contract:

 

....

Rights granted to Tenant (owner of the flat)

...

The exclusive right for the Tenant to park one private motor vehicle on the parking space (the "Parking space" shown hatched blue on Plan 1* subject to any regulations as to use made by the Company.

 

 

as Company means: The "Building name" Management limited.

 

* This is the bay as identified on the plan, it is numbered with the same number of the flat.

 

On ‎24‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 10:57, Ethel Street said:

 

Even if the PPC does have the authorisation to issue PNCs you then go on to the whole question of whether the PNC in your case is valid - is the signage adequate and compliant, is the PNC compliant, have timescales been met etc etc?

 

Just had a look at the ticket.
It is an electronic ticket which includes all the details, time stamp, car details, code number of the employee etc

It says at the name of the company at the end etc

With regards the signage, does it need to be signed? There is no signature with a pen or so. 

[dx100uk]

signed signage?? where's that come from...??

 

scan the ticket up to PDF

read upload

[James222201]

Doc1.pdf

[Ethel Street]

What I meant by 'signage' was the signs displayed in the car park, not the signing of any documents. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[brassnecked]

No doesn't need to be an actual signature on the signs, AFAIK,

[ericsbrother]

so subject to any regulations made AS TO USE. made by the management co.

 

Now my reading of this is they can limit the type of activity you can use the parking space for rather than allowing someone else to tell you that you have to comply with their made up rule so we now need to see teh lease with regard to changes of the terms of the lease and also the letter you would ahve got when they introduced these bandits to your block.

Also who is the freeholder, is it commonly owned or by an individual or company because again it would be rare for a freeholder to assign all of his rights to a management co and get nothing back but grief..

 

now you will ahve to name the management co as they are a limited co we can then look them upa nd see what it is they supposedly do as a business and who runs it.

[James222201]

Thanks a lot. That is helpful.

 

As you said in previous post, developers dont make it easy for you.

The co mentioned on the the AS TO USE clause, is the one that the developer (and previous landlord) assigned in place. They were doing a shady business so we kicked them out. The current RTM ltd is by volunteers (Director are the also owners).

The parking company was introduced by the current managing agent, which they actually acted to waive a ticket for another resident, while they said they cannot do this for us (we did not ask them in first place - they found out that we have complained)

 

The building has been sold to a new landlord with a new RTM (as mentioned above) and I am sure he did not pass them any rights. Actually, he mentioned that he will let them operate as long as they do not mess up, if so he will take over.

The RTM is supportive but is not in their hands to do much (well other than kicking the parking company out)

 

This is pretty much the story.

 

I have now sent a letter to the landlord.

 

With regards to the letter, we had received an email from the agent.

 

"Dear Leaseholder,

 

Due to some recent problems with parking within the garage area (i.e. cars being parked in the Loading Bay, people parking in other residents spaces etc.) it has been decided to employ the services of a parking enforcement company to police the garage.

 

Those of you who have an allocated parking space as per your Lease will have now received a parking permit assigned to your space. It is important that if you sublet your property and your parking space is included in their tenancy agreement you forward this permit on to your subtenant as soon as possible. Enforcement starts from 9am on Monday 11^th December 2017. From then, any vehicle parked without a valid permit or not in a bay will be liable to receive a ticket from the parking enforcement company and the vehicle owner will be issued with a fine.

 

Should you require any further permits, please let me know and I can order these with the parking company. Additional permits are charged at £1.75 each."

 

 

With regards to the ticket, shall I appeal to POPLA?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2019 by James222201
correction

[king12345]

Fine...

Someone is going to explode seeing that word.

I would start by complaining to the landlord and tell him to go and shovel cow manure with his mates, the parking cowboys.