@elite_preowned Elite Preowned Vehicles not responded to vehicle rejection

[Cho Moglett]

Hello, It has taken me all day to put this together. I

 

have just (yesterday) rejected a used car and the dealer has not responded although is active on social media and has previously been very communicative.

Full details below and I've actually got about 14MB of attachments so will have to filter these down.

I want to know if I can try and call him between now and the 14th day, just to try and resolve, or do I need to maintain silence.

 

My view on this is that Elite may be feeling as much caught out with this as I am but that is the risk as a car dealer that Elite/JW takes and I pay to buy through a dealer so I don't have that risk.

 

I think he should take the loss, deal with it professionally and he may even get a good review for handling a return as professionally as he handles sales. Nice thought but how do I bring him around to that way of thinking!

 

Have I used the right channels to send them the rejection?

I sent it by email and hard copies to their correspondence address and showroom address

I would like advice in preparing for the next stage.

 

Here goes. Please ask for more detail as required.

 

I say them but the company is just one man and the money was paid into a bank account in his name. [I know big mistake]

 

I prepared multiple supporting pdf attachments and there is limited file size.

I have attached the rejection letter and one other.

A list of supporting docs is below.

Please let me know which ones you want or if dropbox links will work and I will put them all on dropbox.

All pdfs have been redacted and I have inserted my user name 'Cho' or 'Cho Moglett'

 

Thank you so much in advance for your help with this. Anxiety and stress levels are through the roof over this.

 

Here goes.

 

Monday 15/04/2019.

I purchased the Volkswagen Touareg WU06 GOJ from James Whitcher of Elite Preowned Vehicles and paid by online bank transfer. (PDF R01. 150419 Sales Paperwork)

 

At the point of purchase I paid £5350.00.

The vehicle was sold with a 3 month warranty from A1 Approved.

The advertised price was £5,500.

 

We had agreed a reduction of £150 for a faulty parking assist sensor that Elite had stated that all I needed to do was find that sensor and replace it

Elite also stated all the climate control needed was an air con re-gas due to the climate control system not blowing cold.

 

I asked Elite, that as they were simple issues, if they would be willing fix these prior to the sale but they declined saying that for the cost of a new sensor it would not make financial sense for them to drive the car all the way back to Bromley to get their appointed garage to fix it and to drive it all the way back.

 

it was implied that because there was a faulty parking sensor and that the air conditioning needed a re-gas that we agreed what both Elite and I thought was a fair reduction in price to reflect the expected costs to replace a sensor, circa £90. and regas the a/c circa £60.

 

Since purchase I have found these issues to be more significant.

I have left these issues out of this current issue as the fault for which I have rejected the car is entirely unrelated.

 

In the sales process, the dealer used a video tour (see dropbox link:REMOVED AS NEEDS REDACTING!

(I filmed the video on my pc in case the dealer deleted the youtube video.

I also typed up a manuscript (PDF R28) and an 85 point check (see PDF R01) as a big part of his pitch saying that everything had been checked and there were no faults etc.

The PDI form is a standard one from lawgistics.

 

The point to this is that when I had the air con regassed on Wed 17/07/19 the engineer found the pollen filter was filthy, blocked and mouldy

( I managed to video the reveal as the engineer know something was up once he opened the access panel and debris fell into the front passenger footwell, I was able to get the camera out. (Dropbox link to this video: https://www.dropbox.com/s/9abs4tayt8r29gw/WU06 GOJ blocked and mouldy pollen filter.mp4?dl=0)

This item had been ticked as satisfactory in Elite’s pre delivery inspection.

So it now also needs a new pollen filter.

 

Wednesday 0730hrs 17/04/2019: Elite requested an Autotrader review.

We had owned the vehicle for just over 36 hours at this point so I didn’t think I could give a fair review on the process until we had used the car for a bit longer and at least received the V5 and experienced some after sales customer service etc. I did not respond.

 

Wednesday 17/04/2019 received Autotrader link to review Elite (PDF R08.)

 

Friday 19/04/2019 received another Autotrader link to review Elite (PDF R09)

 

Sunday 21/04/2019 received another Autotrader link to review Elite (PDF R10)

 

Saturday 27/04/2019:

In the afternoon while being driven the car started having episodes of power loss.

This was accompanied by a juddering throughout the car and the ABS light flashing and the engine warning orange light coming on.

After the events the engine warning light remained illuminated until the engine was turned off and back on again.

When I got home I texted Elite (PDF R12) and as instructed by text contacted and left a message at the warranty company A1 Approved.

 

Monday 29/04/2019:

I spoke to A1 Approved who explained I needed to book it into an independent garage, have the fault diagnosed, have the garage contact A1 Approved with a quote to fix and A1 Approved would review and if approved would pay within half an hour of them receiving an invoice from the garage.

 

I booked the car in to our regular independent garage. The earliest slot they had was 10/05/2019.

 

10/05/2019

Our garage said they did not have detailed enough diagnostic equipment to fully investigate this fault and we would need to find a VW garage with a VAG diagnostic machine. At this time, they reported that the parking sensors were all showing an open circuit and that they had checked and found this not to be down to the fuses.

This would also require further investigation.

I found a local independent VW garage that I had never used before.

Whatlington Garage and booked it in for the earliest slot which was 23/05/2019.

 

23/05/2019

Whatlington Garage found the EGR valve flow was not as expected and it required further investigation by blanking off and re testing.

I paid £72.00 for this and booked it back in on 28/05/2019 for further testing.

I also updated the warranty company and Elite by email.

 

24/05/2019

A1 Approved confirmed update and asked that the garage contact them on 28/05/2019 when they had done further testing.

 

28/05/2019

Whatlington Garage blanked it off and took the valve out and cleaned it.

They advised that this may fix it because it was really dirty and sticking.

They couldn’t now recreate the fault and said if it happened again the EGR valve would have to be replaced. I paid £42.00 for this.

I didn’t contact the warranty company as Whatlington Garage did not issue a quote as the issue was hopefully fixed.

(See also PDFs R13. R14. & R15) I carried on using the car as normal.

 

17/06/2019 the fault re-occurred.

 

18/06/2019

I contacted Elite and spoke to James on the phone, letting him know that having read the warranty in full it would not cover the repair, but he said he would take care of it and bypass their terms, that he pays them so they will ring him for authorisation and he will authorise it.

 

At this point I mentioned that the other issues for which there were deductions were turning out to be more significant than he had represented them to be.

He did not want to talk about this and said we would get this issue fixed first. (See also PDFs R16. & R17)

 

19/06/2019 Quote from Whatlington sent to A1 Approved. (PDF R18.)

 

19/06/2019 Email from Elite saying it was a goodwill repair and he would not enter any further discussion about the parking sensors. (PDF R19)

I did not respond to this although with gritted teeth as in my opinion a dangerous fault is not something that falls under ‘goodwill repairs’.

 

19/06/2019 I emailed Elite to ask them if they were sure this fix would fix the fault as Elite had explained that A1 Approved had technical knowledge which is what he paid them for. Elite responded to my question re the fix with a ‘who can say/lets wait and see’ (See PDFs R20, R21, R22 & R23)

 

19/06/2019 A1 Approved authorised the work. (PDF R24)

 

19/06/2019 Whatlington replaced the EGR valve and A1 Approved paid them.

 

Monday 15/07/2019 the acceleration became sluggish, almost like it was trying to pull away in 4^th gear. This occurred when turning left onto a busy A road.

 

Thursday 18/07/2019 it lost power and began shuddering and struggling to move forward whilst being driven on a busy A road.

 

Friday 19/07/2019 I decided to stop driving it as it was constantly juddering and losing power and I felt it was dangerous to continue using it. I managed to film the fault this day. Dropbox link to video: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5j0g4h9a6vhcdyh/MVI_4356.MP4?dl=0

 

22/07/2019

I emailed the rejection to elite with links to videos and copies of invoices to date.

I also posted copies of the email to Elite’s Correspondence address as it appears on Companies House and to his showroom address in Kent.

The copy to the correspondence address was sent first class signed for.

Unusually, this has not been signed for yet.

The copy to the showroom address was sent just standard first class. (See PDFs R25, R26 & R27)

 

Since I sent the rejection email, the dealer has not responded.

He has been very communicative in the past.

He is also still socially active on his business facebook page actually posting last night about his excellent customer service.

 

I am wondering if he is not responding because he thinks I haven’t followed the correct channels by emailing him,

how long does he need to check his post at his correspondence address.

 

R01. 150419 Sales Paperwork

R08. Email 170419 Elite asking for Autotrader Review

R09. Email 170419 Autotrader Review Request

R10. Email 190419 Autotrader Review Request

R11. Email 210419 Autotrader Review Request

R12. Text Sat 270419 notifying problem

R13. Text Thu 230519 Elite following up

R14. Email trail 240519 to warranty co

R15. Verbal Record trail 240519 to my partner

R16. Email 180619 to Elite as record of telecon

R17. Email 180619 from Elite patronising

R18. Email 190619 to A1 approved with quote

R19. Email 190619 from Elite will pay out of goodwill

R20. Email 190619 from A1 asking for cheaper part

R21. Email 190619 from Elite that A1 to sort

R22. Email 190619 to Elite asking if this will fix it

R23. Email 190619 from Elite saying who knows

R24. Email 190619 from A1 confirming go ahead

R25. 220719 email and letter to Elite rejecting car

R26. Posting receipts 220719

R27. 220719 ADDRESSED ENVELOPES

R28. WU06 GOJ Elite Sales Video transcript

R25. 220719 email and letter to Elite rejecting car.pdf R28. WU06 GOJ Elite Sales Video transcript.pdf

[dx100uk]

you informed the seller within 30days that there was an issue

you have allowed a repair even though you did have too.

you are quite within you rights to reject the car 

that being done by email is somewhat immaterial as you followed by royal mail.

 

time for a letter before action

giving 14 days to fully refund all of your money and the repairs expenses to date else you WILL issue a small claims without further notification.

 

 

[Cho Moglett]

Hello dx100uk.

Thanks for your attention and help with this. You had an even later night than me!

 

I clicked on the 'letter before action' link which you kindly gave me.

This took me to BankFodder's post 'Small Claims actions in the County Court FAQ - work in progress' which I have read through and also the 'Pre-Action Protocol' and 'Letter of Claim' links. I couldn't find reference to a Letter Before Action or is this the same as a Letter Of Claim?

 

Also, my rejection letter already mentioned a 14 day period (taking us to 05/08/2019) for him to get back to me.

Is it ok to send a Letter Before Action now? I

 

only ask as I wouldn't want this to be viewed dimly by the court if it goes that far.

I do understand that I need to take action as soon as possible so these are just a few clarification questions

. I shall google for some Letter Before Action Templates and put something together.

Thanks again.

[BankFodder]

I'm afraid that your story is rather overlong. It would have been easier to understand it all if there had been less of a narrative and more of a bullet pointed chronology of facts.

Although you informed the dealer within 30 days that there was a problem, the Consumer Rights Act requires that there be a clear and unambiguous assertion of your short-term right to reject the vehicle. It doesn't appear to me that you have done this. This isn't a problem at all because you are still well within six months. I understand that you have given them an opportunity to repair and that you have now rejected the vehicle.

This is enough to trigger your rights under the Consumer Rights Act as long as the defects which you are complaining about are sufficient to render the vehicle as less than satisfactory quality.

As I say, I haven't read through the detail of your story and I certainly haven't looked at all of the PDFs that you have apparently uploaded but I get the impression that you have been quite meticulous in keeping records.

I've looked at the Google reviews of Elite and I have to say it doesn't bode very well. https://www.google.com/search?q=Elite+Preowned+Vehicles&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBGB822GB822&oq=Elite+Preowned+Vehicles&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l2j69i60j69i61l2.575j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#lrd=0x47d8aa4f43f644d7:0x8e93221101489523,1,,, 

There is no trust pilot page for them as yet. Maybe you would like to attend to that. You say that the dealer is fond of using social media so that kind of thing is important.

Site team member@dx100uk has already suggested that you issue a letter of claim and that certainly seems the way to go although if you are driven to actually mount a claim and presented in court that I hope you won't mind me suggesting that you need to stop being a little bit more economical about the way you present your case.

Just in case there is any debate over the defects which have been discovered and their significance then if you haven't done this already, you should make sure that you have got assessments and even quotations for the work from independent garages.

[BankFodder]

I've just seen your new post. A letter before action is the same as a letter of claim. You don't need a template. You simply need to inform the garage that the vehicle you bought has developed X defect, Y defect, Z defect. He has already been informed of them and given an opportunity to repair and he has either refused the chance to repair or else he has attempted the repair and it has failed – whichever is the case and so under the consumer rights act you are asserting your right to reject the vehicle and you want him to make the appropriate arrangements to collect the vehicle and to refund you the purchase price – plus any associated losses – and if he does not do so within 14 days then you will sue him in the County Court and without any further notice.

Don't make this threat if you're not serious about going ahead with it. On day 15 issue the papers. In the intervening 14 days register with money claim and start preparing your particulars of claim. You can post them here if you want us to check them. Whatever you do, on day 15 you send them the good news

[Cho Moglett]

Hello BankFodder. Firstly thanks for your help with this. I do appreciate your candid response. Sorry my post was so long-winded. I am working on a 1050 character precis for the claim form!

I only uploaded 2 pdfs in the end. One being the email of rejection. I will use this to send a letter and include 'after which I will sue without further notice' text.

 

Can I keep using the vehicle after issuing the rejection? I don't want drive it to but would need to limp it to a garage to get assessments and quotes. I would have to borrow the money to get it trailered.

 

I am 100% seeing this through. I cannot lose this much money. I want to get all the paperwork ready immediately so it can be issued on day 15.

I will post the particulars of claim here for checking. Thanks again.

[BankFodder]

I would certainly not advise you to use the vehicle on a day-to-day basis. The situation would become extremely complicated in the event of an accident or a vehicle theft or something. These risks are even present if you are merely using the vehicle to take to a repairer and so it would not be advisable there either. In the circumstances it might be better to rely simply on the findings that have been made so far by garages and to leave it there. That seems to me to be a reasonable approach. You could invite elite to inspect the vehicle and in fact you should make that very clear in your letter so that you can demonstrate that you have attempted to be open and cooperative in any way.

I think it would be helpful if you posted a bullet point chronology of the defects which have now been identified.

By the way, is now scheduled to be posted within the next two or three hours and it will include the tweet handle of Elite so that they will now see that this is being discussed on an open forum.

[Cho Moglett]

Thanks BankFodder

• The vehicle loses power and starts juddering while being driven.
• It was diagnosed as the EGR valve. This was repaired. The fault has re-occurred.

(Is this enough info?)

 

I will include offer for him to inspect.

Thanks for the heads up.

I have use of another vehicle. This one has been off the road since 19/07/2019 and I've no intention of using it.

[Cho Moglett]

Hi, I sent a letter before action at 0928 and just now received an email letter disputing claim and dismissing it. Can you advise please? Thank you.

Letter contents below: 

Quote

 

Our Member: Elite Pre-owned Vehicles Ltd
Re: VW Touareg, Reg No. WU06 GOJ
We have been consulted by our above named member.
We are a trade association tasked with providing advice and assistance to our above named members.
We refer to your email dated 22 July.
First, we note that the above mentioned vehicle was sold to you on the 15 April 2019 for the price of £5,350.00.
At the time of delivery the vehicle was almost thirteen (13) years old and had an odometer reading of about 81,300 miles.
Plainly, the vehicle was well used and part worn at the time of delivery and the issue of satisfactory quality must be viewed in such context.
We note that the vehicle passed an independent DVSA MOT test on the 27 March 2019 with no advisories.
Further, we note that the vehicle was subject to a thorough pre-delivery inspection (PDI), which revealed no issues other than those reported for which you received a suitable discount.
Despite what you say, we see no cogent evidence to suggest there were any other faults with the vehicle at the time of delivery.

Indeed, the fact that the vehicle has covered some 2,545 miles post delivery suggests that the issues you now complain about have developed post delivery.
In this regard, we refer you to Section 19(15)(a) of the Consumer Rights Act 2015.
On the facts, we see no valid statutory claim against our member for refund or otherwise, as alleged or at all and your claim is hereby dismissed.
We await your considered response.
Yours faithfully,
Lawgistics
Lawgistics Ltd

 

 

[AndyOrch]

http://www.lawgistics.co.uk/#sthash.ffcIrh7V.dpbs

[Cho Moglett]

Thanks Andyorch. I had checked them out previously as Elite use their PDI checklist form.

[king12345]

Have you had a VCDS scan?

It could be a lot of things, some simple, some more complicated.

My money is on the turbo.

Not that you would care now, but the warranty people should suggest this.

Anyhow, reject and hope to get your money back. 

[BankFodder]

I wouldn't bother to respond. You have sent your letter of claim. On day 15, issue the papers.

Their point that the issues developed post delivery are absolutely correct and do not address at all your entitlement to have a vehicle which is of satisfactory quality and remains that way for a reasonable period of time.

I suggest that you start preparing to issue the papers as we have already suggested above

[Cho Moglett]

Hi king12345 Thanks for your reply, it has been on a VAG machine and they couldn't find the problem. It has been intermittent, happening every couple of weeks, never when it's been in the garage typically.

 

Thank you BankFodder I shan't respond.

I will go through with the rejection despite their response through a legal representative. I am trying not to be intimidated and just keep telling myself to expect unpleasantness along the way. It seems like a lot of miles but it has been driven about 40 miles a day most days to and from work since it was bought and the fault has occurred intermittently, but getting worse.

I need to get some work done - I have not been able to since Monday as I've been working on this. But I will register with Money claim this afternoon and get going with the particulars of claim ready to serve on Wednesday 7th August 2019. Thanks again.

[BankFodder]

I'm sorry but maybe I haven't read this thread closely enough but I had gathered that there had been a fault and that a repair had been attempted and the repair had failed.

Now I am reading that apparently the fault is intermittent and that there is no evidence that the fault exists – other than your own experience from time to time.

I think you will have to show that a fault exists and so I would caution against starting a legal action without this evidence.

[Cho Moglett]

Hi Bank Fodder, I'm confused and really concerned now. The problem first started 12 days after we bought the car - juddering, ABS and engine management light. I reported the problem and was told to go through warranty company. The fault kept happening every couple of weeks throughout the time it took to get it to 2 garages and agree a repair. I did ask the dealer what happens if the repair doesn't fix the problem. He said its down to garage to find and fix the fault if it does then it is the end of the matter. So he has taken on the repair but it hasn't fixed the problem. As it is happening every time it is driven and it doesn't feel safe to drive, I opted to reject the vehicle. I'm not sure what to do next. Do I go to another garage and pay them to assess and diagnose a fault. I am sorry if I haven't made this all clear. Please feel free to ask me more questions so I can give you the relevant info. Thank you.

[BankFodder]

The law is broadly this – that if the defects manifest themselves within the first six months than they are taken to have existed on the day of the contract – meaning the day of delivery of the vehicle. This is despite any checkups or inspections and which apparently show there was nothing wrong with the vehicle.

So from that point of view, the burden of proof to show that there is a defect rests on you. Once you show that there is a defect then it falls to the dealer to rebut the presumption that the defect was there from the start. They won't be able to do this.

However, you will have to be able to point to the defect. As I understand it every time that you have tried to have the vehicle inspected, no defect has been revealed.

Have you had any garages who would agree that there was a problem – even if those garages consider that they have now repaired the problem? For instance, is the management line still coming on? If so, have you taken a photograph – or even better a video of it coming on? Have you had someone else sitting in the car and experienced the various faults materialising?

I hope you understand that you won't be able to go into court and to reject the vehicle because you consider that there is a defect if no one else with their expertise and equipment has concluded that there is no defect. This would be extraordinary because it would allow anybody to return of vehicle for a refund simply on their own whim.

So the question again is have you got any evidence of the fault? Are there any garages that would agree that there was a fault – and of course it would be far better if you can get a garage to agree that a fault still exists.

You say that the matter is getting worse. If there is no discernible fault at the moment and may be the thing to do is to wait until it becomes blindingly obvious and then the evidence is there for you.

[BankFodder]

Although it's too late now, it's a shame that you didn't react immediately when the fault initially occurred and insisted on your statutory rights at that time. It's a shame that you allowed yourself to be shunted off to a warranty company. Warranties are meaningless. They are just a trick and have the effect of persuading many people that after the warranty has expired that they have no further rights. Extended warranties and warranties generally should be made illegal or else they should be very carefully regulated so that it is clear on their face in very big letters that you are always better off relying on your statutory rights.

[BankFodder]

Also, it shows you what a load of rubbish this legal company trots out to bamboozle people who don't know better.

The principal argument seems to be that because there was no evidence of the fault at the time of delivery and therefore it arose subsequently, this means that it is nothing to do with them.

First of all this flies in the face of the provisions of the consumer rights act which are very specific that a fault which manifests itself in the first six months is taken to be there on the day of delivery. Secondly, it has nothing to do with the fact that you are entitled to a vehicle of satisfactory quality and which should remain that way for a reasonable period of time. Yes it was a second-hand car but it was a second-hand car worth £5000 and and I would expect it to run pretty well trouble-free for at least a year or two – or with only very minor problems – and none of those which manifested themselves within the first six months.
 

[dx100uk]

yes Lawgistics Ltd again

 

paid membership scheme to get written what you want to hear not the correct legal remit.

[Cho Moglett]

Thank you BankFodder.

 

After last week's several occurrences, I have an 11 minute video of me driving and the fault occurring.

I used a Canon sureshot attached to the passenger headrest to film it.

You can hear my voice, the lense is on the dashboard so my face can't be seen.

There may be a slight reflection at one point but I believe I cannot be seen in this.

 

Believe me the juddering is worse than it looks, but you can see the rev counter jarring up and down and I have kept a steady commentary of what I and the car is doing.

 

I have just now spoken with a garage, a recommended vw specialist and have booked a recovery lorry for £50 to take it there for them to test it, plug it in to VAG and do a written assessment on Wed next week. They charge £25 for diagnostic and £40.00 per hour. They are a long established VW restorer/garage and come recommended by somebody I trust.

 

Are you happy for me to post a link to the video on here?

 

Thank you.

I know I am so stressed and angry I feel so desperate and so stupid and utterly sick with worry.

[BankFodder]

No that's all right. If you have a video that points to the fault and if you already have a record of two attempted repairs then I think that will convince a judge.

I suggest that before you incur these costs that you inform the dealer that this is what you are doing and give them an opportunity to comment. It's very important that whenever you do anything like this – particularly which may involve expenses for which you later on intend to hold them liable, that they are informed in advance so that they can object or at the very least they cannot say that it was unreasonable and they weren't put on notice.

You need full transparency as to what you're doing.

Make sure that you get the records of the work that was carried out on the two occasions upon which repairs were carried out. I'm assuming that the work which was carried out addressed the same fault which is apparently now manifesting itself again

[Cho Moglett]

Thanks BankFodder. I also sent him the video when I rejected the car on 22/7.

I will let Elite know now, my intentions and costs for next week. Shall I ignore the lawgistics or copy them in?

 

I have the two detailed invoices, which I had also sent to Elite for their records. Yes it's all about the same fault.

Thanks

[BankFodder]

That's good. I was going to suggest that you provide them with a copy of the video. I would ignore Lawgistics. I wouldn't give them the dignity of a reply – or the time of day.

[Cho Moglett]

Thank you BankFodder - I'm learning a lot here. Funnily enough, in my effort to be as open as possible, I have caused confusion and not made things clear, so I am learning the benefit of being succinct.

So I have emailed a letter before action and am following up with posted copies before 5pm today. I will email Elite today about my intentions to trailer the car to another vw indie specialist and get a written assessment and adding these to cost of claim. I will sign up to money claim and get the partics of claim ready to serve.

I will be in touch with any developments or drafts to check.

Thanks for your advice so far.