Armtrac Windscreen PCN - Expired ticket - Sandy Acre Car Park, Hayle

[Gusolo]

Hi all,

 

Overstayed by 15 minutes, during which time I was on my way to the ticket machine far away at the entrance after climbing mount sand dune back to the car park. I know they don't take this into consideration when appealing but it seems to be a common issue with the car park which others have reported on Google/TripAdvisor (hindsight is a wonderful thing!).

 

Questions from the 'Have you received a parking ticket?' section filled out below -

 

1. The date of infringement? 01/05/2019
2. Have you yet appealed to the parking company yet? No 
3. Have you received a Notice To Keeper? Yes
4. What date is on it? 15/07/2019 (75 days)
5. Did the NTK provide photographic evidence? No (their website does)
6. Did the NTK mention Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA)? No
7. If you appealed after receiving the NTK, did the parking company give you any information regarding the further appeals process? Haven't yet appealed
8. Who is the parking company? Armtrac Security Services (KBT Cornwall Ltd)
9. Where exactly did you park? Sandy Acre Car Park, Hayle

 

Irony is we were delayed in getting back to the car as we had hand fulls of rubbish we decided to collect from the beach, but couldn't locate anywhere to put it before the climb back to the car park and didn't want to leave it behind.

 

Oddly the time of issue on the PCN states 13:25 but the NTK is 13:30 when we were back in the car. Just like the sand dune I thought £60 (now £100) was a bit steep and unlikely more than the landowner’s loss for pretty much an empty dust bowl in the middle of nowhere (with great views though!).

 

Guidance/advice on the best way to proceed is appreciated! 

 

[dx100uk]

So this was a windscreen ticket?

[Gusolo]

Yes it was

[dx100uk]

NTK is out of time

ignore them

[Gusolo]

I was thinking about doing that but have read on a number of sites now that it's better to go down the appeal route. If the NTK doesn't mention Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 can they still be caught out if its late?

 

I've read part C 3.1 (q) of the IPCs code of practice and can see in there it states that the NTK must "Be given to or served on the Keeper between day 29 and day 57 after the day the Notice to Driver is given (which is counted as day 1)."

 

Spose that's them out of luck then 

[ericsbrother]

You have already answered your own question but bear this in mind, no parking co joins the IPC unless they are useless or less than honest because the BPA is a much better organisation with regard to training, appeals clarity etc.

 

No point appealing, it will be rejected so sit tight in the knowledge that they have failed to create a keeper liability and thus have broken the law by lying to the DVLA to get your keeper details.

 

However, if you do respind to this you may well show that you did have a contract with them as the driver and they can then lawfully pursue you in that capacity.

 

We recommend that you let them chase you for no purpose and take the time to get a smuch evidence as you can to help you fight off their greedy claims.

 

So we need to see pictireso fht esignage at the car aprk and also of the payment machine there as that is where the contract is actually formed when you feed the meter

 

It is not the landowners loss you need to worry about, they dotn get the money. It s the greedy parking co that trousers the charge along with fees for managing the place

[Gusolo]

I've actually sent off the appeal below today which I've seen used elsewhere successfully (with a different parking company) -

 

Re PCN number: XXXXXX

Vehicle Registration: XXXXXX

To Whom It May Concern:

[removed - dx]

 

 

 

[dx100uk]

urm not a good idea IMHO.

you had the upperhand

in some aspects you've just lost that by mentioning everything above

most of which is totally irrelevant but they now know the cards you'll play and conspire to get around them should they wish to litigate.

 

anyhow, lets see but I bet its rejected

dx

 

[Gusolo]

I bet you're right and it's the only thing I'll be responding to them on, I'll keep this topic updated.

 

 

[ericsbrother]

so millions of electrons wasted for nothing.

 

you are wrong to assert that you arent responsible without denying being the driver at the time and they will pick up on this,

judges dont like people playing grandmothers footsetps with who was or wasnt at the wheel either

 

so for anyone else reading this thread- dont do it.

 

Either deny being the driver at the time or say nothing at all and let them waste their money chasing you for no purpose.

[Gusolo]

Doh! If I'd held off a couple of hours I would've seen your response. Out of interest, are there any topics you have seen where that has occurred?

[honeybee13]

Hi Gusolo.

 

I see you've been here for a while, so maybe I could suggest that you read around our PPC forums for cases involving Amtrac and other PPCs to understand how they operate.

 

Here at CAG we like people to self educate so that if the issue ever goes to court they understand the arguments that they need to make.

 

HB

[Gusolo]

Hi honeybee13, thank you for the suggestion - I've had a fairly decent trawl around this forum and the internet over the past few days and what I've gathered from Armtrac (it's been mispelled in the topic title) is they will just reject whatever appeal is submitted and I won't have much luck with IPC/IAS either so I won't bother with any more paperwork unless they proceed with court action.

[Gick]

[Gusolo]

They have responded but the letter is at the post office awaiting a signature. I won’t waste my time 

[ericsbrother]

if you dont collect it the law deems it delivered anyway so you might as well collect it when convenient.

 

you need to start to think about things in a cold considered manner, your problem isnt Armtrac, it is unilateral contracts so if you feel like another trawl you will see it is a quite complicated matter with case law that says the opposite to other bits of case law but they are both equally applicable.

 

just about all of the problems here are covered by a short list of definable problems and none of those are unique to one parking co so read the last 200 threads and you will see a consistent approach to the problems in the advice given. Understand what we need as far as information and you will save a lot of time and a bit of grief for yourself.

 

Now can you gte piccies of the car park itself and the signage there or was it a holiday visit?

[Gusolo]

Hi ericsbrother, that's interesting, it was a holiday visit so unfortunately did not get any pictures of the signage. I have found some signage pictures from the car park online but they are a number of years old now.

 

I'm fully expecting a rejection to my appeal but doubt legal action can follow due to the NTK being out of time and keeper liability not applying..? I've seen others have their PCN cancelled due to this, but possibly because PoFA was quoted in the NTK.

 

The letter waiting at the post office must be the final demand as having just got home I've found their rejection letter stating "With regards to your comments made in your letter, it is all irrelevant as we Do Not operate under P.O.F.A, so the PCN was legitimately issued and will not be cancelled" conveniently missing out the part about the IPC code of practice.

[lookinforinfo]

If they are not relying on POFA then they do not need to adhere to the NTK time schedules.

That would mean that there would never be any keeper liability.

But it doesn't mean that they won't continue to pursue you as the driver.

 

You will find that it is better when dealing with these crooks is to ignore them and play your cards close to your chest so as to give them little idea whether they are on the right track. By your appeal they know where you are at and will modify, alter, lie and obfuscate on their current position.

 

As you cannot get any pictures  [do you know someone local there who could take some?]

then check with the local Council to see if they have planning permission for their signs and ANPR cameras.

Without those permissions there cannot be a contract formed between them and the motorist.

and it's not such a long shot as you might think..

 

It might also help if you could post up the windscreen ticket and the NTK as they may contain errors.

Just redact your name, address, car make and reg number and post them up on PDF.

 

And ignore all correspondence from them and their useless debt collectors.

They can do nothing to you.

Just let us know if you receive a Letter of Claim from them.

[Gusolo]

Here are the scanned documents. I'll see what I can do about the pictures and post something on here in due course.

Armtrac.pdf

[ericsbrother]

On ‎01‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 15:38, Gusolo said:

I'm fully expecting a rejection to my appeal but doubt legal action can follow due to the NTK being out of time and keeper liability not applying..? I've seen others have their PCN cancelled due to this, but possibly because PoFA was quoted in the NTK.

 

you are living in a different world to the rest of us if you think that.

 

As already said, you havent denied being the driver so POFA doenst protect you from creating a liability, you need to read it carefully and the look at the wording fo the NTD and NTK and the timescales that apply to use that argument.

 

they say it is too late to appeal, that is another IPC abuse of process as they read the NTD as starting the clock for the NTK as well when it doesnt. However, i know of no cases where a court has orderd the parking co to go back to the appeal stage on this basis but it is a useful thing to mention when you are writing a defence to a court claim and they have used the Gladstones roboclaim so plenty of other things to slag off the POC for and this can be added to the list.

 

Now you need to look into other claims/complaints from this site, try the online version fo the local paper or even phone them up and see what they have to say that might help.

 

we did this for another car park in Cornwall and as soon as the previous case that was chucked out of court was mentioned the parking co cancelled the tickets ( but wouldnt if you didnt rub it in)

[Gusolo]

Oops, here is the signage in PDF form. A couple were taken on the day which I've obtained from their website and have also found a readable version of the same sign from a few years back. 

 

Thanks ericsbrother, I'm going to have another good look around at other posts.

Signage.pdf

[ericsbrother]

they cant say they don't operate under the POFA, it is a law they have to abide by but your appealing has made this almost irrelevant whereas you could have sued them if you had taken the advice to do and say nothing.

so lets consider their signage.

 

Nothing on the sign at the meter to indicate that you are entering a contract where you pay them £100 for not following the terms offered as there aren't any to consider.

 

The signs away from the meter arent contractual and dont have the core terms either so all in all armtrac dont actually have any reason for chasing you. their application for obtaining your keeper details is a breach of the GDPR and I bet even the IPC CoP has something to say about how they should behave but teh IPC dont censure their members for breaking their terms or the law and they even actively encourage their members to sue the motorist when there is no cause to do so.

 

they are nothing other than crooks and this has already been agreed by courts in the past.

[Gusolo]

Sorry just looked again at Google maps and there was another sign to the left of the entrance gate away from the meter, is this contractual? I've found a closer picture which was from the same car park a number of years ago attached plus a newer one (from another car park) which has IPC labelled on it.

 

 

Sign.pdf

[ericsbrother]

what dis I say about wording on the meter?

read all of the posts again and then tell me where the contract is formed and then tell me why a sign away from the meter would trump the contract you accepted by feeding it

 

However, I do like the idea of displaying a ticket face down, that would make an interesting meal when they say you ahve overstayed, how would they ever know from a blank side of a ticket?

This dates from when they were BPA members so not applicable but damaging for them if it was still there when you parked.

Stick to things as they are or were when you parked rather than digging up relics on google. That is helpful for us to identify the place and the general layout of the land but cant be relied to be current so you only use images from therer where you want to dispute the veraicty of some fo their evidnec where for example ther is no sign and never has been

[Gusolo]

OK so not contractual  sorry not sure what you mean about a face down ticket? The one we had was face up which they have taken (blurry) pictures of.

 

I have sent an email to the DVLA requesting the information from the sticky and am currently trying to locate details of the landowner, and although a waste of time I'll also complain to the IPC about their CoP breach for good measure.