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anniebattlemum

VCS ANPR 2015 PCN claimform - Berkeley Centre

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I've done some digging and found out that the signage was changed in November 2018 from two hours' free parking to one hour (I'm sure we can all guess why).

 

I've also found a photo of the old signage (attached) but frustratingly the quality is rubbish and the part with the company name is partially chopped off.

 

VCS have an excellent track record of getting spanked in court and may well discontinue when they see your defence.  However, if it does get to WS stage, it'll be worth looking at whatever proof of signage they send and keep in mind this Excel/VCS mix up that they often get so wrong.

 

The photos I found were published in an article in May 2016 in the Sheffield Star, so were probably the same in 2015.

 

Unfortunately this second one does show "Vehicle Control Services" at the bottom so my little idea has turned out to be a non-starter.

 

Oh well, you have about a million other excellent points prepared to see them off!

 

While looking for the photos I came across articles in the local rag, and people have certainly been complaining about the reduction of free parking from two hours to one https://www.thestar.co.uk/news/motorist-made-to-feel-like-a-criminal-after-incurring-parking-fine-at-sheffield-shopping-centre-146877

pix.pdf

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Ah bless you thanks.

 

So that is the signage pre- November 2018, but do we know if it was the signage for 2015? 

I too read somewhere that they changed it to 1 hour and certainly that's how it is at the moment - I did a driveby!

I needed to get a feel for the location and the conditions, traffic volume etc.

However we don't have evidence going back 4 years I'm afraid.

 

I'm also confused because the Land Registry has the name in the title deed as the West London Property Corporation Ltd. and a planning application dated October 2000 is in the name of The Henderson UK Property Fund, although the agent is still the same - Lambert Smith Hampton of Manchester, so there will be a lot to check if VCS does produce these documents.

 

Tescos took out their lease in December 2006 - important as they occupy the majority of the Precinct and their declared policy on car parking is on record.

 

It's a very busy store and I'd challenge anyone to get out of there within the free hour, but after that, they have to pay these robbers, as there's now a machine in place.

 

There's plenty of evidence of applications for signs for the retail outlets and an ATM for the carpark, but nothing I can find for VCS or Excel.

 

However, someone has said online that Excel were in the process of installing Number Plate recognition cameras in 2010 and I also read that Excel were barred for 3 months in 2012 from using the DVLA database.

 

It seems the Berkeley Centre was already there in some form in the 1960's.

I don't think any of that really helps our case though.

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Might be asking locl press if people are complaining about getting charged for overstaying whilst waiting to exit the carpark due to traffic, as the 1 hour allowed isn't long enough to enter park shop and depart.


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Absolutely! It's ridiculous. One of the stipulations on the conveyancing document is: "not to do or knowingly permit or suffer to be done upon the property hereby conveyed or on any part thereof anything which may be or become a nuisance or annoyance or cause damage or inconvenience to the vendor or its lessees or Tenants in the neighbourhood"

I think VCS does all of that!

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I did see that article in the Star which certainly adds to the general ill feeling in the area.

 

The signs for 2016 arguably have the info to form a contract - they don't however say what the camera data will be used for (does the word 'compliance' cameras cover that?) nor do they take note of the fact that the exit could take longer than 10 mins when they acknowledge the 10 minute grace period.

 

I still doubt there is planning permission for the signs and that one in the pic is certainly big enough to require permission.

 

Question - since it also advertises the retail outlets in the precinct, is it permissible for VCS to just add their 'spiel' on the bottom without getting a separate permit, and then put up other little signs elsewhere that aren't big enough to need a permit?

 

I haven't heard anything from Eric re the revised defence in post 66 - he may be busy or away - so I think we'll have to just go with that version today. My daughter is anxious to submit it in case there is any problem with her online account.

 

Once it's done, then at least we'll have a little breathing space before the next stage.

I am absolutely convinced that VCS will continue to pursue the claim, having seen other cases online.

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stop panicking MCOL is reliable its only w/ends it sometimes has a hissy fit

and even so it can be sent by email

and even so..she is a LiP [litigant in person] si leeway is given

 

eric was arounds yesterday ..not due for 3 whole days yet


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and how can it annoy the vendor many years after the event?

 

stop reading things into documents that isnt there and follow the paths of the advice given.

 

For example,

do the signs that form the contract say VCS or Excel?

they are 2 different companies but they treat them as being the same when they arent.

 

You need to hammer this sort of thing home so therefore VCS has no LOCUS STANDI at amy of the palces they issue tickets and court claims and then they lie about it.

 

Your job is to shine a light on those lies rather than worry abotu a condition that was to apply to the demolition crew of what was there before the development was built

 

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The concern was more about my daughter's internet connection + we're not used to leaving things to the last minute, but thx for keeping us on track & we'll try to stay calm. 

 

Yes that was a bit of an aside re the conveyancing document.

It just came up in the title deeds when I was trying to find out who the land belonged to.

 

Unfortunately we don't know the detail of the signage in 2015, so it will depend on VCS producing that evidence since they haven't responded to my CPR 31.14. I presume they're required to respond to the points in our defence once it's submitted.

 

I read that in a previous case, their agent presented a letter from the landowner to the court authorising parking charges, which, although not a contract,  would satisfy the IPC code of conduct, but I don't think it was signed by the landlord, just the agent, although the judge didn't seem impressed. 

 

We do now have a photo of the 2016 signage which was probably in use in 2015, but doesn't show the name of the company (VCS or Excel) so it doesn't give us that ammunition.

 

Aside from the 3 points on my draft defence, I think the main defence argument relates to grace period, which could be regarded as subjective and dependent on the opinion of the judge. I'm thinking a lot depends on the judge lottery!

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I later found a second photo from May 2016 which unfortunately shows "VCS" on the sign.  It's above.  You probably didn't see it as three of my posts got merged.  Sorry for (inadvertently) wasting your time with this idea!

 

Still, you have an excellent defence already prepared.

 

Is it worth your daughter asking the DVLA who requested her details? 

There may well be an Excel/VCS mess-up at that stage. 

Worth a try?

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Nothing's a waste of time Dave - everything worth checking and thx for that - yes I now see VCS clearly at the bottom!

I don't know whether the DVLA will have records of applications going back 4 years or whether they'll even share that info, but I guess it's worth a try.

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Posted (edited)

The DVLA don't make it easy, but I think the correct address might be  KADOEServices.support@dvla.gov.uk 

 

I think it would be a good idea for your daughter to e-mail them, ask who has accessed her details from 1 January 2015 onwards, and asking to be given the correct e-mail address in case she has contacted the wrong one.

 

I found the address at  https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/804462/inf266-release-of-information-from-dvlas-registers.pdf bits of which are useful reading about how the PPCs are supposed to respect the POFA (but I'm damn sure they don't).  

Edited by FTMDave

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I agree it's worth a try.

 

I found SubjectAccess.Requests@dvla.gov.uk  for SAR Enquiries, but like you say, it's not obvious.

 

The address you found for the Data Sharing Strategy and Compliance Team sounds a better bet.

I'll talk to her tomorrow about this and we'll give it a go.

 

Thanks Dave.

 

Actually there must have been more than 1 application to the DVLA since my daughter changed addresses several times and the correspondence followed her.

 

Dave, it must be worth doing as I have now found a template letter for asking the DVLA who has requested personal details, elsewhere on this site, so thanks for highlighting that idea.

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only one dvla request I suspect

the others addresses would have been found by trace agents, or dca's via credit file searches 


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11 hours ago, anniebattlemum said:

Actually there must have been more than 1 application to the DVLA since my daughter changed addresses several times and the correspondence followed her.

dont guess, when daughter has the details of who and when she will know exactly what the answer is. they wont be accessing the datails several times. stick to facts, not assumption

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Thanks will do.

We'll write to DVLA today.

 

Going thru POPA again re point 3 on defence, and date of issue looks OK with 2 day delivery period, but I'm still confused as to the distinction between a notice to driver and a notice to keeper.

 

If the PCN is a notice to driver, does it also count as a notice to keeper, since an NTK was never issued?

 

Does this give VCS the right to claim against the driver/keeper?

 

I find this point confusing after reading the legislation again. I'd be grateful for any clarification.

 

 

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its the diff between how they deal with ANPR or Windscreen PCN's

 

for a windscreen ticket that is already a notice to driver/PCN - followed by a NTK with 20-56 days.

 

with ANPR there is no ticket[PCN] - so they have to issue one within 14 days. hence it says PCN on the top


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OK thanks for that.

 

I was just trying to establish whether they'd followed procedure in filling the claim against the driver/keeper, and obtaining the keeper details within 14 days from the DVLA, on the assumption that the keeper was the driver, but I suppose that's the only way they can issue PCN's by mail.

 

The template letter to the DVLA expects some details of the V5C document to be included, but the vehicle was written off by the insurance company over 3 years ago and those details are not readily available.

 

I hope the DVLA will still have a file on the vehicle and can get the info re data access from the reg number and registered keeper details! 

 

Is the brief defence OK to go do you think?

 

Not panicking, but would like to seize a quiet moment while my grandson is in bed!

 

Deadline 4p.m. tomorrow and it will be much more difficult during the day.

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Just for the benefit of other users: we waited till the very last minute to submit the defence, but unfortunately my daughter's account/the MCOL website wouldn't work and we missed the deadline. She then spent nearly 2 hours on the helpline phone to them, waiting in the queue, but they couldn't help with the access and suggested emailing. Eventually, she sent off the draft as in post 66 (Revised draft) so hopefully it will be accepted and we'll go to the next stage. Thanks to everyone for your help thus far. 

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They do tend to give some leeway to Litigants in Person, so should be OK.


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You will be fine, they were as of yesterday doing work dated the 18th of July, defences are logged as the day they are received. 

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Many thanks for all the reassurances. Now I guess it's a waiting game and a chance to collect more ammunition.

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look for any court cases from this time for the same site and see what they say and if possible use their images and other evidence for your case. You may well be able to get the judge to accept the previous cases as being persuasive if you are arguing over the quality and wording fo signs.

 

Dont vely on VCS producing images of their signs, most parking cos' use computer mock ups in court and tell the judge that is what is there rather than showing real pictures form 2015. they are the enemy, they are not going to help you.

 

However, you will have your own pictures of what is there now ( you better have) and if their piccies are the same you challenge the veracity of their evidence again relying on other cases that show different signs.

 

trawl through all of the motoring forums to dig up anything you can and use it.

 

Copy it and file it with your other stuff, if it is rejected then so be it but better that than not try.

Anything on other forums is public domain so no need to worry about whether the material itself is good enough or admissible,, it is just whether it fits in with your defence and that is where the vagueness of the original outline defence helps you

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Quote

 

Thanks Eric's brother. Yes I do have photos of the current signage which I can print out. I also have the photos from 2016 from the Sheffield Star, which can be compared with anything produced by VCS. The rest is just vigorous research!

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My daughter's already received a letter and a questionnaire which I haven't seen yet. That's a bit scary - I thought it would be a very long, slow process, with lots of time to plan!!

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Thats the allocation questionnaire.  It can be a long process. Dealing with a case and the hearing date is end of February 2020!

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