noomillo6o v morgan stanley ** WON **

[noomill060]

Hi Guys! Sent my SAR to MS last month and got all my statements within a week.

 

Last week got round to sending my preliminary request for return of charges plus compounded contractual interest. (I added the £10 SAR fee to the total I want back for good measure)

 

This morning letter arrived from MS signed on behalf of Trevor O'Donnell (Customer Liasion Officer) Woo Hoo!

 

Forgive me if youve seen this letter on here before- I have!

 

 

 

"Dear noomill060,

Thank you for your recent correspondence about you Morgan Stanley account which I have reviewed along with all our correspondence to you on this matter.

 

I understandthat you are concerned oover the application of fees to you account and are requesting that these be refunded. I note that you are also requesting a refund of the SAR administration fee.

 

I have reviewed your account and and confirm that MS strives to comply with industry best practice and does not consider that the charges incurred on your account are unfiar or constitute a penalty. However, our charging structure has now been reviewed following recent preliminary guidance provided by the Office of Fair Trading to the industry.

 

The Office of Fair Trades **Note:this typo is on the letter**) review refers to the last six years of your account and the following is based on the charges during this time. There have been nineteen £20 late fees and six £20 over limit fees plus three £15 late fees applied in the last six years and bearing in mind the above review and the value we place on our continuing relationship wuth you, we intend to credit you account with the sum of £209. This amount represents the sum difference between all charges applied to your account and the £12 charge we have implemented. We will not be reviewing the administartion fee charged in repect of your DPA SAR, as this is a valid charge for processing your request.

 

We should be grateful if you would confirm that this offer is accepted in full and final settlemet of any issues in relation to charges applied to your account by signing the and dating the encloded copy letter and returning it to us. Following our receipt of this signe letter, a credit will be made to your account.

 

We do not recognise the value of your interest cerit request as any payments made to an account following the application of fess are automatically applied to reconcile any outstanding fee(s) followed by interest before being processed against any remaining account balance. This is in accordance with our payment hierachy system. There may have been a small amount of interest applied to your account when fees have been processed concurrently on consecutive months due to non-payment of the account. However, the recent OFT ruling did not cover interest applied to an account only the level of fees and as such, we do not accept the refund interest request.

 

I trust this satisfactorily explains matters to you. However should our expalnation in any way not meet your expectations or you have additional information to add to our comments, please contact our Customer Liasion Team manager.

 

Karla Kenny

Morgan Stanley

Consumer Banking Group International

PO Box 3598

Glasgow

G68 9YW

 

01236 797022

[angry cat]

Ah ha-

written by the charming Ms. Karla Kenny..

 

IMHO MS are 'Having a Laugh'

 

Say NO !

Keep on going and you will get ALL of your money back, plus the interest that MS charged you, from the date of each fine, on the daily contractual rate that MS charged you over the past six years, to date.

 

Love AC

[noomill060]

Oh yes, I intend to, angry cat!

 

bobtheb had a similar letter.

 

The "payment hierachy" this letter refers to is total carp and is in total disagreement with Morgan Stanleys T&Cs.

 

As bong says in bobtheb v morgan stanley **WON**

 

The relevant sections of the Morgan Stanley Card Terms and Conditions

 

 

Allocation of payments

 

F. We will apply payments we receive first to interest on a Transaction, then to the amount of the Transaction itself in the following order -

 

1.Balances to which promotional rates apply,

2.Balances to which promotional rates do not apply, or no longer apply, starting with Balance Transfers/Purchases, followed by Cash Advances.

 

See Condition 3.5 of the Card Terms and Conditions for full details.

 

 

Morgan Stanley Card Conditions

 

3. Payments and Interest Charging

 

3.1 We will not charge interest on any Purchase shown on your current statement if you pay in full the Statement Balance shown on your current statement by the Payment Date. If you pay in full the Statement Balance shown on your current statement by the Payment Date but you did not pay in full the Statement Balance shown on your last statement by the Payment Date, we will charge interest on each Purchase shown on your last statement from the relevant Transaction Date until you have paid the amount you owe us in full.

 

 

3.2 We charge interest on..

 

Cash Advances, Balance Transfers and Credit Charges from the relevant Transaction Date,

 

Account Cheques from the date the Account Cheque is given to us for payment, and

 

any other amounts payable under this Agreement from the date on which such amounts are charged to the Account;

 

in each case until you have paid the amount you owe us in full.

 

3.5 We will apply your payment in the following order to all amounts due in relation to your last statement, before moving to Transactions that have been made but have not yet appeared on your statement.

 

First we will apply your payment to pay off Special Transactions...

 

Next, we pay off any other Transactions (including Special Transactions to which preferential interest rates no longer apply) -

 

a starting with Balance Transfers/Purchases,

b followed by Cash Advances.

 

If you have more than one Transaction within either of these categories, then we will apply your payment to them in the order in which we added them to your Account.

 

We apply your payment first to the interest on, then any insurance premium relating to, a particular Transaction, then to the amount of the Transaction itself and then to any fee relating to that Transaction. All other fees and charges are paid off after the interest on the first Transaction that is charged at a non-preferential rate.

[noomill060]

Heres a letter I plan to send to the lovely Ms Kenny, any thoughts?

 

Complaint-Request for repayment of charges

Dear Ms Kenny,

 

I acknowledge your letter dated 24 November, your swift response is appreciated.

 

Thank you your kind offer to return the difference between the charges you made and the figure of £12. As you will no doubt be aware, the figure of £12 is a suggested OFT penalty charge, merely a maximum charge above which the OFT will investigate as excessive.

I will accept your offer of £209 in the form of a cheque (NOT as a credit to my balance) and only as part settlement.

I will pursue recovery of the full amount through the courts.

 

There will be no extension to my timescale and unless you return my £1213.03 in the interim, proceedings will commence on 12 December.

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

Noomill060

[noomill060]

Havent got round to starting legal stuff yet, but I received this letter from the lovely Karla Kenny this morn:

 

If youre reading this Karla- hiya! This interweb lark's good, innit? You could get away with all sorts 'till this came along!

 

"Without Prejudice

 

Dear noomill060,

 

Thank you for your letter of 27 Nov about your MS account,which I have reviewed along with all our correspondance to you on this matter.

 

I understnad that you are unhappy with our previous response in relation to a requested refund of fees applied to your account and I note that you indend to intitiate a court action to recover the outstanding amount of £1122.49.

 

I have reveiwed your account and I do not agree that we have acted inappropriately in applying these fees to you account. However we are keen to settle this matter directly with you. Therefore, as a gesture of goodwill, I can confirm that we agree to a refund in respect of the fees charged directly to your acconut totalling £615.

 

we do not recognise the value of your interest credit request totalling £527.49 at 19.16% as any payments made to an account following the application of a fee are automatically applied to reconcile any outstanding fee(s) followed by interest before being processed against any remaining account balance. this is in acordance with our payment hierachy system. there may have been a small amount of interest apploed to your account when fees have been processed concurrently on consecutive months due to non-payment of the account. Howevere the recent OFT ruling did not cover interest applied to an account only the level of fees and as such, we do not accept your refund interest request.

 

Interest is calculated under s.69 County Court Act 1984 is only awarded if a claim is brought to court and ist is only applied in the judgement sum, if judgement os entered against the defendant. Any interest awared is at the total discretion of the court. However, as a gesture of good will, we have included the County Court Act interest in the sum we are offering you in respect of the default charges applied to your account.

 

Blah blah and so on.

 

Karla asks me to sign acceptance form and they will credit my account with £775.35. Total I'm claiming inc. contractual interest is £1122.49.

 

 

 

Usual MS B/S terms:

 

Full and final settlement, including any future claims against MS in relation to default charges.

 

Gagging clause.

 

 

Offer open till 9 january

 

 

No claim to be made to any competant court (is there any other?!)

 

No complaint to FSA or FOS."

 

 

(No consideration has been offered in return for these terms on which they will condescend to return my own money)

[angry cat]

Hi noomill060

 

Say No!

 

You do not have to accept any of the MS unfairly imposed terms, as well you know.

 

They (MS) will eventually cave in.

 

Love AC

[noomill060]

Thanks Cat, I'll ring them tomorrow to give them the chance to make a full settlement offer on my terms before I file against them in the County Court, which will cost them dearly as I will be claiming damages in addition to a refund of charges plus interest.

[noomill060]

Phoned and got a definate "f*** off"

 

Hey ho, hey ho, its off to county court we go!

[angry cat]

noomill060,

 

My advice to you from now onwards is....

Put everything to MS in writing!

 

MS will cave in, once thay get the message that you are really serious-

meaning, when you Issue your County Court Claim against them.

 

Do not phone MS again.

 

Love AC

[noomill060]

I'm going to write another letter to MS thanking them for their increased offer which I will accept only on the clear understanding that I will pursue them through the courts for the balance.

 

I have recalculated the total claimed for (inc the £10 SAR fee) using the current MS purchase rate of 20.9%. This gives a figure of £1224.80 as at todays date.

 

This will be the figure I will base my Small Claim on.

 

Does it make a scrap of difference that this is a different figure I asked for in my original LBA?

 

I am also minded to claim damages as outlined here- http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/rbs-bos-successes/49470-contractual-interest-details-case.html?highlight=justwon

[noomill060]

Although I'm not entirely sure why Im writing to them again, but I gather we should be as reasonable as possible as court action is the last resort.

[redsonja]

Hi Noo,

Im just enquiring if they came back to you with settlement on the interest after?

 

I too am claiming with MS and have had the usual blurb on the letter offering me unacceptable credit. Would be interested to hear where you are with it all.

[noomill060]

No improved offers, redsonya. Im dropping off my claim at the court today.

 

Funny thing is, MS stated in their payment hierachy letter that payments are first made to any fees.

 

Ive just looked at this months statement. Under the "Account Messages" it says "We will first apply payments we recieve to interest on a transaction, then to the transaction itself"

 

More Contractiction!

[redsonja]

Exactly right!

I checked my statement and it said exactly the same.

It seems crazy that they dont offer at LBA stage knowing that all these people know they are eventually refunding costs and interest back. They are costing themselves more in the long run.

 

Good Luck with it, I shall keep an eye on your thread.

[noomill060]

After your LBA, you will probably get letter offering you all your charges back plus 8% court interest on top as a "good will" gesture and a big NO as regards the money you've paid in contractual interest.

 

You will have to go to court for that.

 

Amazing, they actually seem to believe that they can profit from their unlawful charges.

[redsonja]

I look forward to receiving their letter offering me that then and I can give them a big NO to their offer!

 

The interest I am claiming only works out at £56 but thats a weeks nursery fees for my daughter and a big help for me as I am on maternity leave with my 2nd child at the mo. Its also good for me to get used to the procedure as I have plenty of other claims to make with people....and the Halifax being the main one!

 

It makes me laugh how they send the standard replies cos they must know about this site and how everyone knows of the standard replies!

[noomill060]

didnt get round to lodging my claim at court this week as i promised Karla Kenny I would. She seems to think I've forgotten about her and sent me another "final offer statement" for the same amount.

 

Dont worry Karla, I havent forgotten about you hunny, you'll get your summons from me this week- brace yerself sheila!

 

Anyway, some advice please- what is the calculation we use to work out the daily rate, both for contractual interest and County Court interest after a claim has been lodged?

[angry cat]

Hi Noomill060-

 

just click onto Vampiress's Chambers below-

 

Please visit Vampiress's Chambers for spreadsheets or the Templates Library.

 

you can then work out your calculations on the relevant Google spreadsheet

 

Good Luck

AC

[angry cat]

Whoops!

link didn't work sorry-

click on this link and then click Vanpiress's Chambers

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/6964-spreadsheet-interest.html#post49061

 

AC

[noomill060]

Thanks angry cat, I worked it out myself using a compound interest calculator in the end.

 

Anyway- big news today!

 

At long last I filed my claim at the local County Court! Yay!

 

Claiming for penalties, interest on the penalties at 20.9% contractual interest rate plus interest at 20.9%, continuing at a daily rate of 70p until settlement.

 

Best part of £2000 I'm claiming in total, so I've had to state that I will abandon any excess over the ridiculously low £2000 Northern Ireland Small Claims Court maximum.

 

Lets see what Karla Kenny has to say...

 

All Civil claims in Northern Ireland are processed centrally in Belfast, not by local courts, so twill be a day or two before I'm able to get a claim number..

 

Will keep updating on developments.

[redsonja]

Hi Noo,

Guess what?! Got the usual reply after LBA offering me full costs but no interest (pretty much the same letter you got). Did you send a rejection letter after this offer?

[noomill060]

Hiya redsonza- what a suprise, they really are predictable, arent they!

 

I got mine just before Christmas. I sent them a rejection letter simply as a holding position over the hols, then filed my claim this week.

 

As you've had the "final offer" off this pack of munchkins, you can now hit Morgan Stanley like a 757 going into a skyscraper...

[redsonja]

I was tempted to send them copies of their letters before they sent them to me lol and tell them not to send standard blurb out to me.

 

Did you say anything about the interest in your final rejection letter i.e their statements clearly state they apply payments first to interest on a transaction etc?

 

Also, how do you work out the daily compounded contractual charge (think yours was 70p) until claim is sorted?

[noomill060]

You can send them a nice rejection letter telling them you want you charges and all interest levied on them, but they know that already. Have you sent them your Schedule of Charges? A list of the charges, dates they were applied and interest? You need to.

 

I did mine in Microsoft Works word processor, then saved it to My Documents, then printed it. Had to do it a dozen times till I got it right!

 

 

Date Applied Value Current value inc Cont'l Interest @20.9%

 

1/2/2000 15 66.03

2/3/2000

 

 

 

and so on

 

I used this handy gadget.

Compound interest calculator

 

Compounded monthly. Tick the 360 day year box

 

 

When youve worked out your Schedule of Charges, save it in your Documents, then come back for more info.

[redsonja]

I did send them schedule charges done on Vamps no 16 spreadsheet. Ive just tried a quick calculation on the link calculator based on one of my charges but the total is about £1.10 different to Vamps. uh oh! worried now!