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On a far more interesting note.

 

Been an interest of mine for all my life.

 

Theres been a program on channel 5 recently that started to come close .....

and season 18s opening episode of Time Team which is just being rerun on one of the channels starts to give a more accurate perspective of the time period

...

 

I believe I have known for ages where  ...

 

Its all as Plato says, apart from a slightly misleading reference to its size.

 

For the aficionados, Cadiz is part of the clue. Its not the location - but a pointer to it..

 

 

A little background info on the ice sheets of the time

https://donsmaps.com/icemaps.html


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... Its just doing some due diligence that makes them seem unusual ...

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No interest?

No comments?

No opinions?


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... Its just doing some due diligence that makes them seem unusual ...

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I'm interested but for technical reasons I won't bore you with, I can't view the programme.

 

Is it possible to give us a short rundown of what the programme said and maybe where you think Atlantis was please? I'd always assumed it was in the Aegean but you seem to be talking about Spain.

 

HB


Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Its exactly where Plato said it was HB

 

I will expand, but is better with scene setting.

The world was quite significantly differently laid out 10000 years ago.

For example, the straights of Gibraltar were effectively longer and narrower, and had a small island in its mouth (not Atlantis)

 

The channel 5 docu actually seemed to be almost getting there towards the end - but fell short :)

 

 


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... Its just doing some due diligence that makes them seem unusual ...

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The pillars and surrounding 10,000 years ago.

The blue outline shows areas that were land, although the land likely went out further pre 7500bce

Pillars of Heracles.jpg


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... Its just doing some due diligence that makes them seem unusual ...

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Starting the clues

 

here was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you [referring to ancient Greeks], called the Pillars of Heracles

 

 

“the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island.”

 

 

Poseidon, the Greek god of the sea, had five pairs of male twins with a mortal Atlantean woman named Cleito.

The god gave each of his 10 sons different portions of the island over which to rule. Gadeirus was the second-eldest of these sons.. Atlas was the eldest.

 

 

Plato quite clearly states he believed the story as true.

 

 

Plato tells us that Atlantis was actually an empire ruled from this island.

“Now in this island of Atlantis, there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia.”

(The Atlantean empire ruled chunks of western Europe and Western Africa as far as Egypt - they know about those lands - and defines the Island as beyond those)

 

 

the Egyptian priest tells Solon, “The island . . . was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean.

(its this side of the Americas - but they knew about the Americas)

 

 

and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the Earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea.” According to Plato, this caused an impassable mud shoal outside the Straits of Gibraltar.


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Herodotus.JPG


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Gadeirus was given the Eastern side of Atlantis


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So the sea around the straights became a muddy sea - because Atlantis sank

- we can see the areas which were above sea level 9-12000BCE

 

Gadiz was the Eastern side of the Island(s)

 

The 'bank' through which ships passed leading to other islands (the Azores - the blessed isles in the west), and the greater sea and the surrounding Continent - the Americas as we call them which was significantly 'nearer' at the time - I'll show this in a while.

 

You can perhaps see the 'barrier' through which ships passed better in post 5

 

 

 

 

1379747952_Cadizandpillars10000BCE.thumb.jpg.74f2d0e5fac62112a670ddc78e45abd2.jpg


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Posted (edited)

Of course, the big sticking point is that Atlantis is commonly reported as " The island was larger than Ancient Libya and Asia Minor combined "

 

The only 'island' that would seem to be able to refer to is either the Americas or an accessible Greenland.

 

We are reasonably certain that greenland has not been ice free to that extent in the last 20,000 years although it quite likely was about a million years ago.

 

The legends speak of the continent beyond the sea, so were aware of the Americas, and did not say that was it (although I'm quite sure the east coast was colonised.)

 

 

Its pretty certain that neither the Azores nor the Canaries were that large, although both were larger 10,000 years ago, and I'm quite sure that the Azores were part of the Empire and a stepping stone to the Americas.

 

 

 

48489798_Azores100bce.thumb.jpg.aa91588aaaf03790d051e73e56c375d0.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Newfoundland 10000BCE.jpg

Edited by tobyjugg2

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... Its just doing some due diligence that makes them seem unusual ...

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Clear up a few things before the last leg

 

 

There are some apparent contradictions in the stories regarding 'the straights'.

Well there were 2 straights

 

The Island and Empire of Atlantis was beyond the pillars of Heracles but ruled as far as Italy and Egypt per the stories...

- with a second set of straights between Tunisia and Sicily entering the Greek realm

(Just tidies up one of the apparent contradictions)

 

 

893604274_The2straights.thumb.jpg.c12010df5dcfc6de8f66a8155e9e8c22.jpg

 

 

 

 

Also, The common belief that it was a volcanic type eruption that sank Atlantis - it wasn't.

There is no evidence of that sort of volcanic event, and given the suggested scale - it would be evident even today.

 

BUT

There were two very significant and fast sea level increases at around 9k (7500bce) and 11k (9500bce) years BP.

Bang on the nose.

 

https://teara.govt.nz/en/graph/8402/sea-levels-in-the-last-20000-years

https://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/briefs/gornitz_09/

 

 

So if the massive empire wasn't a lost continent @ the mid Atlantic ridge, and wasn't the Americas, and wasn't North Africa (mentioned as part of the Empire  ... were was it?

 

...

 

 


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... Its just doing some due diligence that makes them seem unusual ...

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Science catching up with past of the story

https://www.livescience.com/873-bursting-ice-dam-flooded-ancient-ocean.html

 

It happened twice though

 


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... Its just doing some due diligence that makes them seem unusual ...

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So we've seen part of the world as it was 10000bce

 

We've seen that the Greeks were aware of the Americas, and that Atlantis was beyond the pillars of Heracles

 

We've seen that there were two straights, although Atlantis is still beyond what we know as the pillars of Heracles

 

Geology gives us no evidence of a central Atlantic ridge continenet

 

Gaderius rules the Eastern side of Atlantis (south Western Spain

 

We see the Islands and land now sunk outside the Pillars which caused the un-navigable 'muddy sea'.

 

 

So although the sunken lands we see is large enough to hold a society that could be strong enough to subdue any city state size communities likely in the time ...

 

It is still perhaps rather on the small size  - even including Spain and Southern France with the extended coastal plains on the East coasts of Spain, France and Africa., and even including the larger Azores

Wheres the rest making an empire larger than Libya (so the 'known' African mainland can't be included in the Atlantean empire size) and Asia combined - but do understand what they meant by Libya and Asia, and refer to the ancient map higher in the thread.

(The Atlanteans were a seafaring people in a time before Greeks had navies)

 

 

That the Atlantis of Greek legend is that now sunken area of 'coastal' land and islands which made a 'barrier' to the greater sea in and surrounded the extended straights and mouth of the pillars (including what we now call the Gorringe ridge which would have been a larger Island - significant)  seems clear.

 

That they ruled across Spain and through the pillars and the larger Islands as far as Sardinia right up to the second straights, seems to fit the legends well.

 

 

...  albeit some size, origin and cause of the sinking issues appear to remain as yet unanswered - but not for long

 

Any questions?

Clarifications?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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... Its just doing some due diligence that makes them seem unusual ...

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Posted (edited)

smegging site. Browser locked up machine and lost what I'd been typing

 

 

Right back to post then edit until |i cant

 

Two reasonably brief, clear and interesting sources of what available

Bare in mind that some of the later 'treatise are clearly referring to the later North Arfican Atlantoi - although their legends are worthy of a view.

 

http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/soa/soa07.htm

https://www.theoi.com/Phylos/Atlantes.html

 

 

Diodorus Siculus  seems to be the source of the 'some days sail west of the pillars location' - from the Phoenicians - long after Atlantis had sunk.

 

 

Given that Plato clearly identifies the Atlanteans as

A power from the true Ocean

from Beyond the Pillar of Heracles

and Subdued Europe as fas as Italy, and North Africa as far as Egypt.

It seems clear that it was not the first inner portion of the med and was beyond the pillars as we understand them - NOT any inner source although seems clear the Med Islands near the pillar through to Sardinia/Italy were subdued.

 

 

Now actual location info given

"The eldest, who was the first king, he named Atlas, and after him the whole island and the ocean were called Atlantic.

To his twin brother, who was born after him, and obtained as his lot the extremity of the nesos towards the Pillars of Heracles, facing the country which is now called the region of Gades in that part of the world, he gave the name which in the Hellenic language is Eumelus, in the language of the country which is named after him, Gadeirus."

 

 

BUT be aware

nesos means island - and also coast, promontory or peninsula
Look at even modern greek use of the derivative *nesus

 

 

That the islands and land around the Pillars as shown in the maps earlier in the thread are unquestionably what the  greeks and Egyptions understood as 'Atlantis' and they would be at the very least the power base from which the Atanteans progressed their power through the pillars into the mediteranean seems clear

 

That the Atlanteans and through them the Egyptions knew of the Azores and Americas seems certain and that they knew of red men with hair like horses mentioned, in fact its likely that the expanded Azores was a significant part of the Empire - but if the Azores are named after one of the younger siblings of Atlas - then it isn't the main Island.

Even the expanded Azores isn't  big enough anyway.

 


But where is the huge nesos

 

 

A significant possibility is that those Islands and sunken coastal lands around the mouth shown in maps up the thread, including the Gorringe ridge Island as was, were Atlantis, with Atlas' sibling ruling the coastal region from Cadiz to the pillars.

A group of islands closely linked to each other and the coastal region surrounding the Straights of Heracles.

and I think that would be far nearer the mark than any other theory I have seen

 

... but I don't think that is the full story

I think that was Atlanteans power bases for the western med.

 

 

 

No Aliens I'm afraid, but that the Atlanteans consisted of a number of 'races' is also clearly indicated

Paler men and 'Red men included.

 

 

 

 

......................................

 

Despite Atlantis found - More to come

Be aware that mountain ranges would be significant 'barriers and that Greek Map of the world.

 

 

 

 

Edited by tobyjugg2

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... Its just doing some due diligence that makes them seem unusual ...

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And no I'm not leading to the Americas as Atlantis, as detailed above,

but I do think there were at least one and possibly two (or more) very major Atlantean areas on the west coast of the Americas


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... Its just doing some due diligence that makes them seem unusual ...

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Correction:

 

And no I'm not leading to the Americas as Atlantis, as detailed above,

but I do think there were at least one and possibly two (or more) very major Atlantean areas on the EAST coast of the Americas


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... Its just doing some due diligence that makes them seem unusual ...

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Now some at this stage might think I'm leading to doggerland as the site of Atlantis

 

https://www.winterwatch.net/2019/01/did-the-inspiration-for-atlantis-flood-and-ark-legends-stem-from-paleo-doggerland/

 

 

 

 

 

but for a number of reasons, I'm not ... although I think it is a part of the larger story,

 

Its a little late.

I believe the final inundation of doggerland is part of the later Biblical flood and related myths. (Black Sea, Arabian Gulf, West coast of India etc)

... but worthy of mention is that it could effectively make up one of three 'larger' islands as detailed in the legends far better than the Azores does.

... and mammoths/elephants crossed that bridge - although carefully check the dates of those mammoth/elephant migration evidence. They seem to end 11000bp.

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/earth/story/20150722-lost-beasts-of-the-ice-age

 

http://www.canada.com/technology/Massive+Canadian+melt+have+triggered+flood+biblical+proportions/3954124/story.html

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outburst_flood

 

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html#Sproul

 

 


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... Its just doing some due diligence that makes them seem unusual ...

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So we see the two large and swift Sea level rises  with the earlier one bang on the nose datewise

 

We see the layout of the world around the straights and Azores circa 10,000 bce

 

So what else are we looking for

 

A 'nesos' larger than Libya and Asia

 

Large fertile plain with a small 'mountain'

"Bordering on the sea and extending through the center of the whole island there was a plain, which is said to have been the fairest of all plains and highly fertile; and, moreover, near the plain, over against its center, at a distance of about 50 stades, there stood a mountain that was low on all sides "

" all those sweet-scented stuffs which the earth produces now, whether made of roots or herbs or trees, or of liquid gums derived from flowers or fruits. The cultivated fruit [i.e., of the vine] also, and the dry [i.e., corn], which serves us for nutriment, and all the other kinds that we use for our meals--the various species of which are comprehended under the name ‘vegetables’--and all the produce of trees"

 

Elephants/mammoths - Lots of animals (migration path)

" n abundance all the timbers that a forest provides for the labors of carpenters; and of animals it produced a sufficiency, both of tame and wild. Moreover, it contained a very large stock of elephants; for there was an ample food-supply not only for all the other animals which haunt the marshes and lakes and rivers, or the mountains or the plains, but likewise also for this animal, which of its nature is the largest and most voracious. "

 

 

 

 

Atlas' siblings realm was Facing  Cadiz 'toward' the straights

" when he had divided all the island of Atlantis into ten portions, he assigned to the first-born of the eldest sons his mother's dwelling and the allotment surrounding it, which was the largest and best; and him he appointed to be king over the rest, and the others to be rulers, granting to each the rule over many men and a large tract of country. And to all of them he gave names, giving to him that was eldest and king the name after which the whole island was called and the sea spoken of as the Atlantic, because the first king who then reigned had the name of Atlas. And the name of his younger twin-brother, who had for his portion the extremity of the island near the pillars of Herakles up to the part of the country now called Gadeira after the name of that region "

 

 

Copper and gold mines

the island itself furnished most of the requirements of daily life,--metals, to begin with, both the hard kind and the fusible kind, which are extracted by mining, and also that kind which is now known only by name but was more than a name then, there being mines of it in many places of the island,--I mean orikhalkon (mountain-copper)

 

 

autokhthones - :-)

 

 

 

* So its not likely to be a purely coastal area such as the sunken lands off Cadiz are likely to have been

 

* Its away from the straights past the Gaderius realm

 

* It has a large plain which seems to be on a migratory path including elephants/mammoths (viable until ... circa 11,000bce)

 

* It has extensive woods/forests

 

* It has mines for copper and gold at least

 

 

 

 

 


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... Its just doing some due diligence that makes them seem unusual ...

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A quick addition for now

 

So if we understand that the main nesos is away from the pillarsthe other side of the Cadiz part - remembering that the Cadiz land went out far further into the sea,

 

The Atlanis is somewhere between west and North of the Pillars

 

West Takes us to the Gorringe ridge, which was likely a significant Island,

out to the Azores (which never had huge migrations including elephants/mammoths)

and on to the Americas

 

Bare in mind that it was only about a 700NM jump to the Azores and then another 700NM jump to the extended land of the Americas - not the 3000 mile hop some dismiss as impossible.

and it is still to the extended newfoundland.

 

If the Atlanteans were in America - its likely they travelled south, down the coastline through the extended Bahamas and into south America to the warmer Climates - but thats perhaps another part of the story

 

 

 

 

But again, no I don't think the Americas are Atlantis, although they are the second best bet IMO and I do think there was an extended 'Atlantean presence there.

 

 

Some very relevant and very interesting links for the interested

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hueyatlaco

 

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-conclusion-of-the-controversy-about-the-Hueyatlaco-archaeological-site-in-Mexico

 

https://www.newsweek.com/archaeologists-find-more-hundred-12000-year-old-spearheads-peru-845239

 

https://mysteriousuniverse.org/2017/05/controversial-hueyatlaco-site-suggests-humans-were-in-the-americas-250000-years-ago/

 

http://www.canada.com/technology/Massive+Canadian+melt+have+triggered+flood+biblical+proportions/3954124/story.html

 

 

29624655_10000bcenewfoundlandlandmass.thumb.jpg.f5e75643b81850e0bf9e125b1d0c7266.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

10000bce southern americas tip landmass.jpg


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... Its just doing some due diligence that makes them seem unusual ...

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Interesting for future speculation and summarises and interpretation of some of the descriptions

 

Another passage from Proclus' 5th century AD commentary on the Timaeus gives a description of the geography of Atlantis:

 

"That an island of such nature and size once existed is evident from what is said by certain authors who investigated the things around the outer sea. For according to them, there were seven islands in that sea in their time, sacred to Persephone, and also three others of enormous size, one of which was sacred to Pluto, another to Ammon, and another one between them to Poseidon, the extent of which was a thousand stadia; and the inhabitants of it they add preserved the remembrance from their ancestors of the immeasurably large island of Atlantis which had really existed there and which for many ages had reigned over all islands in the Atlantic sea and which itself had like-wise been sacred to Poseidon. Now these things Marcellus has written in his Aethiopica".

 

 

Marcellus is quite rightly not considered a definitive source not least because of the date he lived and wrote,

but his commentary seems to tie in with some of the later descriptions and worth noting

 

 

 

 


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... Its just doing some due diligence that makes them seem unusual ...

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Havent forgotten about this thread, will get back to it to do the final bit

 

Something to be going on with.

 

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-science-artifacts/idaho-artifacts-show-human-presence-in-americas-16600-years-ago-idUKKCN1VJ2F3


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... Its just doing some due diligence that makes them seem unusual ...

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anyway,

 

We are looking for a large nesos, from the straights through the Brothers realm of Gadiz, large enough for forests and a significant migration path for elephants/mammoths and other heard creatures.

 

If we consider the nesos as connected, as Gaderius was given the east of the nesos,  then we head out into the Atlantic - and quickly into deep water, or the other side from the straights - which is Northward (NNW) up the extended coastline.

 

Which takes us up the coast of Portugal (blue area was land) before swinging east (oh dear) toward the extended coastline of France.

 

So, we can see that extended area of now sunken coastal land is larger than what we think of as the Second Brothers area around Cadiz.

 

But its unlikely to have been a major herd migration path, and the extended coats lands of France go to the East of cadiz -

and Gaderius's land was reported to be the eastern area of the Nesos - although his region could have included the inner med - its rather untidy.

 

and if all that eastern part is the realm of Gaderius - where is the massive nesos

let alone the 3 large islands reportedly remnants of the larger island/nesos?

Let alone an area larger than ....

and a migration path of elephants/mammoths and large herds (reindeer, Aurocs etc)

and warmer - the further north the colder, right?

 

Now what do the legends say of Atlantis and the North wind?

 

 

1917777666_ExpandedSpaincoastline10000bce.thumb.jpg.591cc5f38e9ca165e2e59ecd84af04bb.jpg

 


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... Its just doing some due diligence that makes them seem unusual ...

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So its a large plain, somewhat sheltered from the North winds

Its hugeand on a migration path

Perhaps went from a large Nesos to 3 large islands if the later reports are accurate

Strangely Gadiz (or Gaderius' realm) was the 'eastern part of the Nesos

 

So, looking at the area as it was 10,000bce

 

 

342112939_Northandwestofcadiz10000bce.thumb.jpg.d44a2c5b1e2a07afd6e0bf5f5025b266.jpg


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1175363664_NorthernSpaintotheCelticplain10000bce.thumb.jpg.eca45f332f46eacc1889792e3a9176fc.jpg


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we know tha doggerland -was a migration route. Mammoth bones have been found in the excavations and drilling in the doggerland area.

If they migrated across doggerland. They would have migrated across the prior plain.

 

 

The ice was retreated much further and earlier than commonly believed due to the North Atlantic drift and almost certainly never covered the now sunken Celtic sea landmass

 

 

154916261_icecover15000ya.jpg.678ef26f0372755e00ab99b72a7f340f.jpg

 

 


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... Its just doing some due diligence that makes them seem unusual ...

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