Setting aside salford a ccj - defence sent to wrong court

[keek]

 

Update 

Attended court today for the hearing. Claimant attended also. The judge said he couldn’t make a judgment based on the evidence the claimant had given,

he told her the evidence she submitted was inadmissible and that she hadn’t followed directions.

 

He’s ordered an expert report on the system and to attend another hearing in around 8 weeks.I’ve no problem with the order for an expert report

it will only prove the system does work ,but I can’t understand if her evidence is nonsense and can’t be used why it’s not been thrown out? 

 

[AndyOrch]

Did her councillor friend attend  ?  

 

I told you her evidence would be inadmissible...so sit back let her organise the expert witness.

 

Andy

[keek]

Hi Andy , 

yes she attended as ward councillor and moral support . 

 

The claimant did her self no favours today, The judge was unimpressed with the amount of paperwork she had served. She had to be told to stop using emotive language on a few occasions.  

It only lasted 20mins. 

 

He asked if I would compile a list of experts and then decide between ourselfs who we use and we split the cost. 

 

she wasn’t happy. She didn’t conduct herself very well at all. 

[AndyOrch]

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/standard-directions/general/experts

 

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part35

[AndyOrch]

Interesting article...worth  a read.

 

https://www.dentons.com/en/insights/newsletters/2017/april/6/uk-construction-briefing/uk-construction-briefing-spring-2017/experts-review

[keek]

Just out of curiosity could I have objected to having an expert report and had the claim dealt with there and then? 

 

Just feel a bit annoyed that I have to sort the expert and pay half for the privilege when the claimant hasn’t followed the directions which the judge made clear to her today.  

I was just hoping today would be the end of it either way

And thank you for the links , much appreciated it really is , would have been in a right mess if not for your help. 

[AndyOrch]

You could of but I doubt the judge would have accepted it.Did you not advise the court that you are a fully qualified CCTV installer ?

I agree he could have ruled today and could clearly see the claimant has made a total hash of her claim.Instead he has thrown her a lifeline whereas he should have imposed sanctions and simply struck the claim out.

 

Now you are being put to the inconvenience to help prop up her claim and justify your own defence

 

Please note the upper limit for experts’ fees that can be recovered is £750.

 

SO 8 weeks to sort this...she does not appear to be too amicable so it should be fun the pair of you agreeing an experts report.

 

 

https://keoghs.co.uk/keoghs-insight/aware/expert-evidence-small-claims

[keek]

Hi Andy , 

Yes I told him I was qualified I think that’s why he asked me to compile the list of NSI certified cctv installers for us to choose from. She said she wasn’t happy about this but the judge told her it would be the only way to progress the claim and she agreed. 

 

I didn’t think about it at the time  but she took the DVR to court yesterday so she has pulled it all out , now I’m thinking it’s not going to be inspected as it was when I left it .

 

The way she conducted herself yesterday was shocking so....

Yes it’s going to be a nightmare to get her to agree on anything. 

 

Also so did a little research on the councillor , found a newspaper article from 2016 about her using council resources for her personal gain and had to pay monies back to the council purse.  

 

 

[AndyOrch]

Quote

she took the DVR to court yesterday so she has pulled it all out

 

 

So how can you possibly do an expert report ?  Was there any kind of guarantee provided when you installed it  ? Surely thats also invalid now if there was ?

 

Disregard the councillor its irrelevant and not party to the claim.

 

Keep a tab on your costs here...application fees...loss of income...possible expert fees. 

[keek]

No there was no guarantee or warranty given on the installation but the equipment had a standard 12 month warranty which has now expired. 

I only though about it properly last night although she didn’t show the judge the DVR she definitely had it in court yesterday. 

 

 

 

[AndyOrch]

You really should have informed the judge yesterday...then he would have struck this nonsense out.

 

The only way forward now I see is to do nothing...and come 8 weeks time the judge has no option to dismiss because both parties have failed to provide....or make a further application (without hearing) £100 requesting it be struck out due to this new discovery.

[keek]

I’m sure the judge knew she had brought the dvr box with her , she did say she had brought it and it was on the desk , that’s why I never said anything in the hearing it’s only when I got home and thought about it more.

I’m kicking my self now! 

 

 

I’ll see what the directions say and go from there but if I do ignore them and the claim is struck out would that be it?

Would I still be able to claim my cost back?

 

Ive got a feeling she’s not going to comply with these directions anyway as she hasn’t with any of the others. 

 

[AndyOrch]

Yes you can apply for a wasted costs order.

[BazzaS]

Costs order, surely?

 

”Wasted costs” (rather than “costs”)  is more applicable to someone who has faced costs due to their solicitor’s error, and is seeking an order against their own legal team, not “against the ‘other side’ “

Edited October 31, 2019 by BazzaS

[keek]

Hi 

Received the directions today regarding the expert report . 

 

Not sure about the best way forward .

I’ve no issue with the installation and cameras being checked everything was done as it should have been. And the expert should back this up , My only worry is the dvr. I know she had it in court. She could easily break it if she wanted. 

 

If I fail to comply what would be the worst case scenario? 

I don’t want her to get away with it she’s malicious and a liar! 

 

 

 

[BazzaS]

In what way are you considering failing to comply?

 

Why on earth would you wish to fail to comply?

a) the directions seem “standard”

b) the directions seem reasonable

c) the court is, in effect, saying “the court isn’t an expert in CCTV, and the case hinges on if the installation was good quality or not, so the expert opinion is key to reaching a just decision” : isn’t that what you want?

 

If the report gives information that you feel reflects the situation at the time the installation was inspected that doesn’t reflect the quality at the time it was installed : you deal with that by way of a written question.

You have the advantage that any written question you raise is formulated with your :

a) knowledge of CCTV in general, and

b) knowledge of the installation.

 

Why risk the advantage you have that the report shows how unreasonable the claim is by you not complying with directions?. The “worst case scenario” of failing to comply is the judge awarding judgment for the claimant as the ultimate sanction!

Edited November 10, 2019 by BazzaS

[keek]

Morning BazzaS, 

I was just going off the advice in a previous comment #61. 

 

Thanks for your reply , much appreciated .

 

I am going to sort a list of experts today and forward them on to the claimant for her to decide which expert she wants to use.

What do I do if she doesn’t want to cooperate? 

 

Do I need to send the list of experts to court also ? 

 

 

 

 

[SuperVillain]

On 10/11/2019 at 09:43, keek said:

Morning BazzaS, 

I was just going off the advice in a previous comment #61. 

 

Thanks for your reply , much appreciated .

 

I am going to sort a list of experts today and forward them on to the claimant for her to decide which expert she wants to use.

What do I do if she doesn’t want to cooperate? 

 

Do I need to send the list of experts to court also ? 

 

 

 

 

Send the list to her. In your covering letter/email, emphasise that the experts are independent, and  give her 7 days to agree one of the experts, and have a draft of the instructions to the expert to you by 22 November for you to approve.

 

 If she instead kicks off then ask her to send you a proposal for who she wants to use as expert - you can then check them out and see if you’re happy with them.

 

 

Edited November 11, 2019 by SuperVillain
More info

[SuperVillain]

OP have you heard anything from her yet re the expert? She has until next Wednesday to sort this...

[AndyOrch]

Or apply to the court 4th Dec by 4.00pm for further directions.

 

Andy

[keek]

Hi 

yes I sent her a list of the experts and asked if she could send me her instructions for the expert. 

 

I received a letter from her today stating she didn’t need to send me any instructions or choose an expert from the list I sent . She said she has phoned the court and is waiting for further instructions. 

[SuperVillain]

Oh wow ok.  Well no she doesn’t need to choose an expert on the list you sent but she needs to agree the expert with you. And with regards to sending you instructions, you need to agree those too (otherwise it’s not a joint instruction). I would write back briefly along the lines of:

 

”Thank you for your letter.

You will note that paragraph 1 of the court order indicates that the court has given permission to rely on a jointly instructed expert.

 

Therefore I look forward to receiving your proposals for the independent electrical/CCTV expert.

 

In accordance with the Court order, as this is a joint instruction I will also require sight of the instruction letter and the opportunity to propose any changes to the instructions before instructions are sent.

 

I look forward to hearing from you shortly.”

Interesting to know why she’s phoning the court. If she wants to vary directions the court will tell her to make an application. 

 

As Andyorch says, she has to apply for further directions if no expert is going to be instructed by that date, so the ball will be in her court.

 

Let’s see what happens.

Edited November 26, 2019 by SuperVillain

[keek]

Thanks for the advice. 

 

I knew she would make it difficult instructing the expert . 

She says asking her to choose the expert and send me instructions is not what was ordered by the judge or in the directions.

She says I should send her a list , she then sends me a list and then we agree if we don’t she will phone court. 

 

She said she phoned court on the 18th November. 

 

I will get another letter out to her tomorrow. 

Thanks again for the advice 

[SuperVillain]

10 minutes ago, keek said:

She says asking her to choose the expert and send me instructions is not what was ordered by the judge or in the directions.

She says I should send her a list , she then sends me a list and then we agree if we don’t she will phone court. 

She’s not thinking clearly. 
 

She hasn’t sent you a list of experts (which is something she thinks she has to do).  And you invited her to send her proposals for an expert if she didn’t want one of your suggestions. So basically she’s suggesting no different to what you’ve already asked.
 

If you both agree an expert, what does she think will happen next. One of you is going to have to write to the expert to formally instruct them, but the content of the letter should be agreed as it’s a joint instruction. As it’s her claim it should be her doing the legwork.

 

 If you don’t see the instruction before it goes, there’s nothing to stop her steering the expert in her favour in the letter, putting in things that aren’t true, or sending the expert documents that you’ve never seen before which could be irrelevant or misleading. 

[keek]

She’s brought this false claim and she has no idea what she is doing it’s been a mess throughout .  

 

At the last hearing she told the judge didn’t trust me getting an independent expert and was told off . She was also warned she must not interact with the expert when they are inspecting the equipment or the claim maybe thrown out , she won't be able to help herself if we get that far . 

 

I will reply to her letter and see what she comes back with. 

Thanks