Hoist Claim Form - TSB Lloyd trustcard Credit Card debt *** Claim Discontinued ***

[AndyOrch]

You can question and raise that in your statement later into the process...should it proceed that far....dont show all your hand too early...this is just an initial defence.

[barafear799]

Ok thanks Andy

Defence has been submitted.

Now it's a case of waiting for the paperwork.

[AndyOrch]

Or waiting to see if they wish to proceed 

[barafear799]

Well nearly a month has passed and I received a bulky letter from Cohen the Solicitors. 

Given it's bulk, I was fearing that they'd come up with the credit agreement and all the other stuff they needed and I would be stuffed.

 

However, on opening the letter, I found a bit of a cock and bull story. But the bottom line is that they are going to ask the court to dismiss my defence and continue with their claim.

 

I'm in the process of redacting the letter plus two versions of an assignment notice - but in short, the letter states:

 

The original documentation was requested from the original creditor (Lloyds) on 3rd June (well notified to me in a letter dated 3rd June); in this letter, they tell me they will "contact me again in due course once this has been received" (so six weeks on and they haven't had a response from Lloyds). 

 

They go on to state that it was originally passed to RobWay - and I contacted them on several occasions, as well as making uinstalment payments to them between 2011 and the beginning of 2019. Also enclosed is a copy of an email from me (but from an email address not in my name!!) requesting a change of date for the monthly payments. (Not sure what this proves?)

 

In view of the above, the claimant contends I have no defence. 

 

And they invite me to settle the claim! 

 

Ok, files attached now (hopefully).

 

Some comments - in terms of the two assignment notices - one purporting to have been sent by Lloyds dated 7/7/2018. 

 

That letter stated the date of sale was 29/6/18 and the total balance sold was in excess of £6,000. 

 

The next letter, dated the same date, is a letter from Hoist informing me of said assignment. 

 

However, it states the total balance sold was £.....blank. and then states a date of 22/3/18 (completely different to the Lloyds letter). 

The Hoist letter also states an amount due amount (in the box just below the Dear Mr......and that amount is less than £4500 (some £1700 less than the Lloyds letter). 

 

Finally, I noticed a spelling mistake in the Lloyds letter (including....or icluding!!) and also a punctuation error, showing "it's" when it should have been "its" 

Am I being too picky? But you'd expect a letter from a major bank to be flawless?

 

Some comments/advice would be helpful. 

I'm guessing it's just a case of waiting?

Do I need to do anything else - I assume the case is already stayed? Although I haven't heard anything from the Court. 

 

Many thanks

 

 

 

docs2.pdf

[AndyOrch]

Not quite stayed you only submitted your defence 14th June ..2 days left plus service (33 days)

 

You wont hear anything from the court if it is stayed they have already informed you in your acknowledgment of Defence what happens from here onwards

[barafear799]

Thanks for response Andy. Do you, or anyone else, have any comments on the material they have provided and my comments about the "errors" in punctuation and spelling in the assignment notice or am I being too picky?

 

Also, where do I stand in terms of having made the regular payments for 6+ years to RobWay? Would that could as acknowledgement of the debt?

 

Thank you.

[Micky the Hippo]

The typos and spelling are irrelevant other than amusing.

 

I've just sent off my CCA and CPR so following this one with interest, good luck.

[barafear799]

So, I've got the N180 form to complete.

Still no sign of credit agreement. 

How do I accurately completely the N180? How can I agree to mediation without the credit agreement or anything meaningful being produced?

The whole process just seems to be a delaying exercise to allow the claimant to magic up some paperwork?

 

[dx100uk]

as in most claimform threads here already

you should be selfhelping during the down periods on whats next.

 

yes to mediation

1 wit you

3 copies. 

 

[AndyOrch]

 

[barafear799]

I clicked on above link, also search on CAG, and on Google - all without a definitive answer - which makes me think the answer is "no".

 

But.....

 

Does the N180 form need to be completed on paper and posted to Court and other party, or is there an email/online version please?

 

Many thanks. 

 

also, any need to send registered post (if post is the answer to above)?

[dx100uk]

as post 34

use the PDF version that andy pointed too post 35

 

ROYAL MAIL 2 copies [you should NEVER use email esp to a dca or their dogs]

 

YES to mediation [unless you filed an SB defence]

1 wit you

the rest is obv

 

one to the court

one to the claimants solicitor minus email/phone sig]

 

[barafear799]

Just to clarify, I shouldn't or don't need to, include signature, phone no. or email address on copy sent to solicitor?

 

Thank you.

[dx100uk]

not that they'd lift your sig onto fake paperwork or file important docs via email 1 min before they are due...

 

 

[barafear799]

Thanks DX

 

Will do.

 

As it is, I have an update.

I got a letter from the solicitors yesterday, which included their N180 form but also included an alleged "signed copy credit agreement" and a number of statements from 2010.

 

It's always been my understanding that the signed credit agreement needs to be a legible signed copy.

This is anything but legible.

Clearly a print out of a scan. 

 

I can just about read the odd line here and there - but no t&c attached - or if they're included on the main form they are in blurred tiny print. 

The agreement appears to have a date of signature of 1998.

There is what looks like a "sticker" attached showing what the credit card number was (16 digits). 

However, this number does not correspond with the copies of the statements that they included from 12 years later. 

 

The copy credit agreement is for TSB (this is the old TSB before their merger with Lloyds)

The statements are "LloydsTsb" - 

 

Is the change of number important?

Is it possible that when Lloyds "merged" with TSB that they "re-numbered" their customers credit card accounts?

 

I haven't got a copy to upload with me at the mo - but it is really hard to view - would this be "down to the judge" if it went that far to decide?

 

At the moment, if it did go to mediation, I'm not that minded to be making anything like what "they" would consider to be a reasonable offer. 

 

This just feels like one big fishing expedition with "limited" evidence. 

 

Advice much appreciated.

 

[dx100uk]

prob an application form

no they cant change A/C numbers with tsb/Lloyds switching around

you have to agree to it.

bogroll I expect

[shamrocker]

On 01/08/2019 at 13:14, barafear799 said:

would this be "down to the judge" if it went that far to decide?

 

A judge may well take the view that it looks like an agreement, and you're not denying ever entering into one, so it can be considered enforceable in the absence of reasons to the contrary. Therefore, you will need to make 'positive assertions' later in the process as to why the agreement supplied is unenforceable (assuming they disclose the same one in their WS), and rely on CCA s.127(3) due to the pre-April 2007 agreement.

 

Which prescribed terms are not present, or cannot be seen to be present due to  the illegibility of the agreement document? This would be worth spending some time reading up on and gaining a sound understanding. Look up Carey v HSBC, which gives a good explanation of prescribed terms and s.127(3), particularly in the context of reconstituted agreements.

s.127(3) can be read here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1974/39/section/127/1991-02-01

[barafear799]

Thanks for the response. I've already been stitched up by reference to Carey Vs HSBC......I was more referring to another case....not sure if I can link on here....so I guess it's Moore Vs MBNA.....sorry, haven't managed to get to a scanner yet.....clearly when I do scan a copy it might look even more illegible. I think as DX states, it might be an application form

[dx100uk]

it will say application form.?

 

 

[barafear799]

Ok, found a scanner. Scanned the letter from the Solicitors stating what they are providing me. 

 

Even though as Dx has correctly assumed, they clearly haven't provided me with a copy of the credit agreement. 

 

The quality of the scan is no worse than the copy they have sent me. 

 

It was difficult to redact the bits I wanted - the scan clearly couldn't properly define the individual "boxes" on the form. I've probably not redacted all the bits I should - but they are so unreadable I have no idea what they're supposed to be showing!! If anyone has better eyesight than me and spots anything personal or confidential that has not been redacted please let me know. Thank you. 

 

I've left a bit of the "number" shown at the top - this was a 16 digit number - presumably the number allocated to me when/if I was provided with a card from this application.

 

In my eyes, this is not a signed copy of the credit agreement. So presumably, they don't have the basis to take this claim any further? As I mentioned in a previous post, mediation would only be an opportunity for me to offer them "pennies in the pound" as a settlement figure.

 

I haven't included copies of the statements they have sent - as I said, these are from a period 12 years after the "application form" - and also not even in line with the date of the assignment that they have claimed in previous correspondences. In addition, they are for a credit card with a different number to that attached to the application form - and bearing no resemblance to the "account number" they quoted in their original POC on the claim form.

 

 

Hoist Letter &CCA_redacted.pdf

[dx100uk]

bog and roll

 

no T&C's nor prescribed terms either and totally unreadable.

at telephone  mediation the same Q's are asked

you would then reply no they have not provided me with enough documentation to make an informed decision 

mediation would thus fail.

 

 

[barafear799]

But again, I go back to the process.

 

Clearly, they haven't (yet) provided the requisite evidence to show the debt is owed, therefore their case should fail.

 

But they have what seems to be an inordinate amount of time to "magic up" some sort of reconstituted document to meet the needs. 

 

Even if it probably bears no resemblance to anything I may or may not have received back in 1998, it doesn't seem to matter?

 

Sorry to sound a bit defeatist.......

[dx100uk]

for a 1998 agreement it must be a true copy inc the signed agreement

not a chance !!

[barafear799]

So, I've had my email from the mediation people with a proposed time/date. But also asking the three designated questions, with one of them being about "having all the evidence" - clearly this hasn't happened - nothing arrived since from the solicitors, so all I have is the almost illegible application form, together with some "statements of some account with a different number" from 12 years later. 

 

So no credit agreement.

 

 

[dx100uk]

as post 46 then