PayPal, Gambling, CPA

[Pierre GA]

Can anyone help me. I am stuffed because of this exact thing.

 

I was allowed to deposit £4.4k into a gambling website when I had no cash in my bank. 

 

It was the final straw and so I came clean with the wife and joined GA. 

 

I didn't even think to search on the internet, despite how wrong Paypal's actions seemed to me.

 

This was a few weeks ago and I suffer with depression and anxiety, so all of this just crushed me.

 

I wake up every day and literally beat myself up.

 

After a lot of intervention and love I am able to lift my head out of the sand and address what has happened. 

 

Here's the issue: 

My wife was getting texts from Nationwide daily saying '£1,700 is due out of your account tomorrow' and so she found the money, and transferred it in. 

 

We took on debt of £3k and Paypal have managed to get their hands on c£4k. 

 

My Paypal balance is now -£420.

 

Nationwide are closed now

I will call in the morning to cancel the CPA / DD.

 

Do I log a fraudulent payment claim against all of this?

Or do I not have a leg to stand on now that I have paid?

Should I contact the financial ombudsman? 

 

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

I have payday loan repayments of £1,800 a month atm.

and £4k would clear the majority of that debt...

I have a 7 month old daughter and my Wife is on maternity etc. etc.

 

Suffice to say that the situation is dire. 

 

Thanks if you read this far.

 

Pierre

 

 

 

 

[Pierre GA]

Can anyone help me. I am stuffed. 

 

PayPal allowed me to deposit £4.4k into a gambling website when I had no cash in my bank. 

 

It was the final straw and so I came clean with the wife and joined GA. 

 

I didn't even think to search on the internet, despite how wrong Paypal's actions seemed to me.

 

This was a few weeks ago and I suffer with depression and anxiety, so all of this just crushed me.

 

I wake up every day and literally beat myself up.

 

After a lot of intervention and love I am able to lift my head out of the sand and address what has happened. 

 

Here's the issue: 

My wife was getting texts from Nationwide daily saying '£1,700 is due out of your account tomorrow' and so she found the money, and transferred it in. 

 

We took on debt of £3k and Paypal have managed to get their hands on c£4k. 

 

My Paypal balance is now -£420.

 

I initially posted this in the wrong place and dx kindly offered some advice. 

 

yes I would get all the payments back from NW under chargeback

and remove that account as a payment method to PP as well as you say via CPA..

 

I am not embarrassed to say that I don't understand how this works and the call to the bank is filling me with dread. 

 

What do I need to say to the bank when requesting a charge back? Does this fall under unauthorised transactions?

 

PayPal aren't letting me remove the bank as a payment method atm.

 

Trying to not get my hopes up as this would be so huge for me and my family. 

 

Truly grateful for any help. 

 

Pierre

 

[fkofilee]

Difficult to say however you can most certainly attempt a chargeback with Nationwide. 

Call 01793657689 and it should put you through to phone banking. They may reject the chargeback which is completely in their rights to do so. 

You've spent the money on this so its not exactly unauthorised but at the same time - Paypal and Nationwide should have failsafes in place to stop this. 

 

IF you are finding it difficult - Can I suggest Monzo as an alternative if things go south with Nationwide? I am with them full time - I dont gamble but i think it could be beneficial in your case - It will also give you a backup account if you need it

 

https://monzo.com/blog/2018/06/19/gambling-block-self-exclusion/

[Pierre GA]

Thanks for the reply. 

 

So all of the additional payments were taken by DD. I've cancelled the DD and instructed the bank not to allow any further payments. 

 

Fraud team initially said that PayPal reject any DD indemnity claims so they wouldn't process one until I spoke to PayPal. 

 

I called back after brushing up on DD indemnities and said that there is no obligation for me to contact PayPal, that I did not authorise DD charges and that I wanted the money back in my account. 

 

Apparently due to the number of transactions it may take ten days even though its one day usually. Will be calling back tomorrow. 

 

Anyone have any experience with DD indemnities? How will PP try to successfully challenge the claim? 

 

Many thanks 

 

Pierre

[fkofilee]

Yes i do have experience, You are entitled to a full refund under the Direct Debit Gaurentee. You raise a claim with your bank. How long ago were the DDs taken? 

PP will attempt to challenge it but hold your ground. These amounts arent small so I worry that you will struggle but do what you can  

 

Lets see how this goes. 

[dx100uk]

God yes go get them all back under the dd guarantee

your bank cant argue and pp wont contest it.

bottom line is they are purposefully in luxy to avoid giant uk tax laws..these types of things are part of their business model and are far a smaller loss than paying billions in uk tax!!

[Pierre GA]

Guys this is great thank you so much. 

 

I have been reading up on direct debit guarantees and indemnities.  I want to call NW back today and challenge a few of the things I have been told. 

 

I wanted to check a few things first of I could? Sorry if this is basic but I am trying to get my head around my rights and there's so much misinformation around! 

 

1) the DD mandate states

 

If an error is made in the payment of your Direct Debit, by the organisation or your bank or building society, you are entitled to a full and immediate refund of the amount paid from your bank or building society

The Nationwide rep (second call) said

A) due to the number of transactions it may take 10 days to process the indemnity claim, and;

 

B) due to the amount they can't just process an immediate refund.

 

Is this not in direct contravention of the DD mandate? 

 

2) they have asked why I am raising the claim and I gave a simple answer of 'I did not authorise them to take those payments'.  Is this sufficient for the claim? 

 

2) They say someone may call to ask more questions - what is my approach? Initial thought is that it's quite simple - I did not authorise PayPal to take those payments by direct debit and once the indemnity has been claimed PayPal will have 14 days to prove otherwise. 

 

3) the first rep said that they don't do DD indemnity claims against PayPal because they just reject them. As dx says above, Paypal don't bother with a counterclaim - is the rep again telling porkies? Even if they did counterclaim surely they need to provide proof rather than merely rejecting?

 

4) they said I need to speak to PayPal before they raise the claim. I flat out said that I do not need to speak to PayPal and that I want to raise an indemnity claim - am I right? She then went ahead and made the claim so I'm either right or said it with enough conviction that she just took what I said at face value. 

 

Didn't record the first call but did record the second. 

 

So glad I came across this forum, such a great resource that all consumers should know about. PDLs are next on the hit list

 

Sorry @fkofilee missed your question re timing of DDs.

 

I have disputed funds successfully taken by PayPal via DD, as follows 

 

13/5/19 - £240

14/5/19 - £680

16/5/19 - £1390

17/3/19 - £30

20/5/19 - £1330

 

Total £3,670

 

[MrTRC]

I've just told Nationwide where to go. They were charging me with charges that their charges caused my account to incur. I have opened up many digital accounts now, and I have found the best to be Revolut, although Monzo are a great second.

Direct Debits.. They just exist to make banks money. If you don't have enough to cover them, you are fined by your bank, AND your product/service provider (e.g. BT). NEVER take out Direct Debits, be in control of your cash. 

TC Xx

[Pierre GA]

I will be closing my NW account too, no matter the outcome. More out of necessity as I need to relinquish all control of money while I go through recovery. My salary, all bills and all debt repayments will be going through my wife's Santander account and we will look for a solution so that I can access small amounts of cash. 

 

Digital services seems the way to go and that's the second recommendation of Monzo after fkofilee posted this morning. Will definitely look into Monzo and Revolut with my wife and see if they can give me the boundaries I need. 

 

No matter the outcome of all this, taking a stance and challenging what I think is a disgusting practice has started to pull me from a really dark place. Can't thank you guys enough and I will be sure to use my experience to help others who come to this site in need. 

 

Pierre

[MrTRC]

Re: PayPal..

 

Make sure you monitor and amend any parties authorised to take automatic PP payments

- I was stung by an anti-virus company yesterday,

I disputed with PP, and the rejected the dispute.

 

My funding source was NW, and I don't have funds in that account..

So NW will fine me £10, but the virus company won't get a dime.

 

I had no idea that I had any PP authorisations to third parties.

Quite hard to find, but check it out.

For reference, I have a PP business account, and have had for ten years. 
 

You are doing the right thing..

 

I ran up £40K in credit cards bootstrapping a business,

I then, in my innocence,

took out a secured loan to pay off the £40K.

 

After I paid the card companies back,

they gave me even more credit, which I used.

 

I ended up losing a house, and I didn't pay back the CC companies.

 

After 5 years or so, they have to give up (not sure about the exact timing on this).

No Direct Debits, No secured loans, No overdrafts!

That is what is so nice about Revolut and Monzo.

 

They don't sucker you into borrowing money.

You have vaults where you can store cash for your bills, and you know exactly where you are. 

My experience, and I'm on the wrong side of 50 now, is that I didn't realise that these people are not really scary.

 

My biggest mistake of my life was taking out a secured loan on my property, which I subsequently lost.

I do have another one, fully paid for, but my ex wife is trying to grab that!. 

I am now financially Zen; I have had, and lost, all that I ever wanted in life.

 

We all have our addictions, and like everything in life, you can actually get over them.

All is not lost.. EVER.

 

Life is a journey, and along the way you learn to handle it.

By the time you are old and decrepit, you will be a master.

 

The trick is, I think, to try and gain your knowledge while you can still use it.

 

I am sure many people on this forum will have been through tough times one way or another, but I am glad to say that I lost everything, hit the lowest point, survived and am now trying to build life back up.

 

NEVER GIVE UP!

 

Tom.. Xx

[dx100uk]

great post MrTRC.

[MrTRC]

Thank you dx! You have a wonderful forum here. Reminds me of the original days of the Internet! (Kudos!). Xx 

 

[Pierre GA]

Thank you MrTRC, fantastic post and some great advice there. I've heard a lot of stories the past few weeks from GA members. Your story and theirs give me hope that there is a bright future ahead. 

 

I stumbled across the 'billing arrangents' page on PP last night 

 

(log into website: settings - payments - billing arrangements) 

 

Cancelled them all, even Google but I'll sort out an alternative finding source with them directly. 

 

My wife and I have worked on a budget and a plan to pay down all our debts. I do financial modeling for work, so I do the tappy tappy and she has the final say on everything. Its only money at the end of the day and getting my life back, my families life back, is worth anything in the world. 

 

Pierre

[MrTRC]

@Pierre GA - The jargon behind DD 'guarantees' is, to my mind, mostly marketing. Direct Debits only serve to profit banks. The consumer does not benefit at all. It is far better to pay, via instant transfer from modern digital banks, than by an outdated Direct Debit scheme. Just think for a second.. Does one really want to hand over one's (in my case 'dubious') financial wealth to a third party computer? I would far rather transact and settle my bills myself; I think I should proffer the term 'Financial Zen.'  

[Pierre GA]

Wow so just spoke to Nationwide. You'll like this one. 

 

Stated that I was calling due to concerns over previous conversations that day and to check the status of my claim. 

 

Was on and off hold a lot and the rep was very cagey, speaking to manager etc. She tells me that there are two DDI claims on my account, for dates and amounts that are completely different to what I asked for. 

 

I asked her to read the notes from my previous calls. She goes on hold again and comes back to day she will send me all notes, correspondence etc. from my calls. I ask for it via email and am told that I will receive this in 28 days (!!) 

 

I ask if we can go through the documents over the phone. No call notes (they'll be on the DDI forms I'm told - there were no notes on the forms either). Okay, next I ask for dates and amounts included in the claims. I load up my PayPal activity to cross check and the first claim was for 'send to friends and family' payments made by visa. The second claim was also for visa transactions. In fact PayPal didn't take a single DD from my bank account for the whole time that I have used them, up until the start of May. These claims were for April. 

 

A little while later the claims, that might be considered spurious/fraudulent, are cancelled. Or at least there's a note on them asking for them to be cancelled. 

 

I ask for my actual claim to be raised. More hold music. We can't do it right now due to the volume of transactions. You'll have to wait two days for your statement as we can't load the transactions. System can't handle it. 

 

I escalate the matter to her manager so I can make a complaint. Manager takes details, asks some questions. Asks why fraud team aren't involved, is it fraud? I say it was the fraud team that I called this morning I thought they raised the claims. I don't know what the transactions are, I haven't spoken to PayPal, I'm exercising my right to a DDI. 

 

She calls them to 'check why they aren't involved, maybe because its DD'. Comes back saying there's a lot of transactions, lots of gambling.

 

Okay I say, point still stands that I want to claim a full and immediate refund, which I am entitled to do. 

 

She gives me an email address to put all of this in writing, which I'd asked for previously. Asks me not to do so until the complaints team speak to me by Tuesday, as it will duplicate. 

 

She goes to end the call and I'm like, so what about my claim? She responds while clearly looking at my account and says that she can see a claim was raised earlier today... 

 

Flabbergasted, I go to remind her that yes, that's why I'm complaining and... Half way through my sentence the phone cuts out. The time is 19.58 and her office closes at 20.00...

 

Try to call back, she's gone for the day and will call me tomorrow. 

 

So so so poor. 

 

Pierre

 

Oh and she confirmed it can take up to 10 days for them to refund me due to the amount. 

 

I am really unsure on where I stand and not sure I have it in me for the fight. Can someone please clarify on these points? 

 

1. They keep asking if I've spoken to PayPal. Am I required to do so? I want my money back so I can repay the loan my wife took out. From there it is up to PayPal to prove I owe them money. 

 

2. Is my reason for requesting the DDI - the payments were not authorised and were made in error - sufficient? Am I required to elaborate or investigate any further? 

 

3. Can they really take up to 10 days to process this claim? Or are they giving PayPal the 9 days to counter claim? Are PayPal likely to counter claim for less than £4k?

 

Thanks everyone so far. 

 

Pierre

 

 

Edited May 23, 2019 by Pierre GA

[dx100uk]

the DD guarantee is immediate and should happen immediately

THEN they ask should questions.

 

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman-news/27/27-directdebit-guarantee.htm

 

go complain to the FOS after one more phonecall demanding they immediately refund ALL DD's made to PP within date xxx to date xxxx.

if they will not

then tell them you will now be making a formal complaint to the FOS and seeking financial compensation because they have failed to honour your request.

 

sadly Nationwide have always made the rules up themselves.

 

I waited 3mts for a +£1000 dd guarantee refund last year 

I got interest on top and £250 compo by complaining to the FOS about them 2 weeks later.

 

dx

 

 

 

[Pierre GA]

Thanks dx that's a good plan. 

 

Will speak to the manager tomorrow and report back. 

 

I do wonder what would have happened if I hadn't called and they made those claims against visa transactions. Farcical situation! 

[renegadeimp]

Make sure to ask for the name of the person you are speaking to, as well as a full email transcript of the call. If they ask why,  tell them everything on the call is being copied to the FOS for a full official complaint.

They usually shift pretty quick.

[Pierre GA]

Good advice thanks very much. Are there any guidelines on how long they should take to send said transcript? I was quoted 28 days on an information request today... 

 

I have just sent two secure messages to NW.

 

The first was to state that they did not follow my instructions from this morning when I cancelled the DD authority held with PayPal, as they allowed PP to reinstate this mere hours later. I gave them formal notice that PP have no authority to take DDs from my account and so I will seek reimbursement from NW should they allow any in the future. 

 

The second was a formal request for them to re-credit my account for all DDs taken by PayPal in the given time period, in accordance with the DD mandate. Reason being that I did not give PayPal the authority nor instruction to take those payments by DD. 

 

Will relay this to the manager tomorrow and ask for a transcript so I can complain to the FOS if this is not sorted by end of play. 

[fkofilee]

Pierre - Just stop. Phoning the call centre yields no results. 

 

Put everything together and send it to - [email protected]

Thats the CEO email - It will be sent to the Exec Customer Relations Team who will investigate a complaint

 

Its more productive then playing Whack-a-mole... 

[Pierre GA]

@fkofilee thanks so much for that advice. I contacted Joe Garner on Sunday last week and got a response from senior resolution the next morning.

 

Still not heard anything since but tbh I've been so busy and pretty comfortable that, if they cock it up from here, they have impinged on my rights for the third time and I have a case against them now. 

 

You know what, I didn't get a single message from PayPal telling me what they were going to take and when. An email with each transaction, which didn't even distinguish between Visa and DD, but nothing to say oh BTW were taking £1.7k in three days. 

 

I can't be in the minority here, they are a disgrace. I've just talked myself into chasing NW tomorrow assuming the team is staffed at the weekend. 

[ericsbrother]

regarding it being paypal that you paid, this just complicates things because theyarent covered by consumer law as they are merely a payments provider so the banks try and treat them the same as for example Sagepay or Royal Mail , thye just carry the message.

Also dont get into a situation where you blame paypal for your weaknesses, they didnt force you to transfer the money, you initiated it and therefore the chargeback will be based upon the bank's and the gambling sites legal requirements.

The bank is being cagey with good reason, as it is a lot of money they need to ensure that you are who you say you are and they cant do this over the phone even though you can make the request that way. They also dont want tio fall foul of the regulator and so will rather make a customer angry than upset them so be patient but resolute, if no-one is biting you no need to growl yet