court date for speeding and FtF - Can I transfer case to local court

[hopey7]

Hi all,

 

I'm going to court for speeding (39 in a 30MPH zone) and failing to name driver.

 

I understand that I can plead guilty to the lesser charge of speeding and get the FtF charge dropped. Is there a procedure to follow or do I just hope in expectation that the prosecution will offer this?

 

Cheers

[Man in the middle]

Arrive early for your hearing and ask to see the prosecutor for your case. Tell him or her that you will offer to plead guilty to speeding if the FtF charge is dropped. It is a process undertaken routinely in courts across the country. In the very unlikely event that your offer is declined plead Not Guilty to both charges. The matter will be listed for trial and you can then decide your way forward. Do not under any circumstances plead guilty to speeding without the deal in place as you may end up with nine points.

 

What were the circumstances that led to you not providing the driver's details? Depending on them you may be justified in asking the court to sentence you at the Fixed Penalty level (£100 and three points with no surcharge or costs). There is guidance enabling them to do so where the failure was not entirely attributable to you. The speed would have qualified for a course but the court cannot deal with the offence in that way. I'll provide the text of the guidance for you if you wish to use it so that you can mention it in court.

[hopey7]

Thanks Man in the middle.

 

I didn't receive the initial NIP until I got a reminder 7 days to the deadline.

I sent them an email to tell them that I didn't receive the initial NIP and asked for more time.

 

I wanted more time so that I could visit the location (which is 140 mile from my home) as I was convinced it was a 40mph road.

 

A reply came back saying they would hold it for about 10 days.

Stupidly, I just left it as I didn't get the opportunity to make the journey.

Weeks later, the summons arrived and here we are.

[Gick]

No wriggle room there then.

 

You need to take Man in the Middle's advice to mitigate the penalty.

[hopey7]

Thanks Gick

[Man in the middle]

Indeed. Just for future reference (hopefully never needed) if you are served with a S172 request (to provide driver's details) you must respond to it regardless of any issues you might have with the underlying offence. Even if you had visited the site and discovered the speeding charge was erroneous you would still have committed a S172 offence if you failed to respond. The two matters are entirely separate and a false or mistaken allegation to (say) speeding does not mean you need not provide the information as requested. 

[hopey7]

Very true. Lesson learned. Cheers. 

[hopey7]

Hi all

 

I have a court date for speeding and FtF. Court is 140 miles from my home.

I have written to the Clerk of the court for transfer to my local court.

I haven’t heard back yet after 10 days. 

Just want to find out if such request can be granted.

 

Also, I have been asked to go and work abroad for 3 weeks.

I finish the posting 3 days after my original court date.

Can I ask for adjournment or do I have to reject my job posting?

 

Every input greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks all.

[Man in the middle]

Yes you can ask for the matter to be transferred and they should readily agree provided you intend pleading guilty. Though with the usual two offences charged I imagine you'll be wanting to do a "deal" (to get the FtF dropped if you plead guilty to speeding).

 

you can ask for an adjournment but provide some evidence of your work posting along with your request.

[hopey7]

Great stuff. Yes, I will be looking to do a deal, that’s why I was a bit concerned.

Thanks Man in the middle. 

[hopey7]

I was prosecuted for speeding and FtF.

I was hoping to go to court and try to get the FtF dropped by pleading guilty to the speeding.

I was sent away on a short contract which was due to finish a few days after court date.

My request for adjournment and also for transfer to my local court were rejected.

 

Now I didn't even get any letters of rejection, I only found out a few days to court date when I phoned the court.

By this time I was away on this contract.

 

It was not possible for me to leave work to attend court so I had to send a plea via email to the court administrator that dealt with my query.

I attached an income/expenditure statement.

I pleaded guilty to the speeding but asked for the FtF charge to be reconsidered.

 

When I arrived back home, days after the court date, not knowing what to expect, the court letter was waiting.

The speeding charge was dropped but I got 6 points for the FtF plus £660 fine, £66 victim surcharge and £300 cost.

 

I have read that the fine is supposed to be a percentage of weekly earning but this fine exceeds my weekly income. 

Can I appeal this fine on the basis that it is excessive?

[Manxman in exile]

When you asked for an adjournment, did you explain you would be out of the country on work?  If you gave a good reason for asking, I'm surprised they refused(?).

 

Unfortunately, if you were charged with speeding and FtF, you probably ought to have pled not guilty to both and then, on the day in court, approached the prosecutor and offered to plead guilty to the speeding IF they dropped the FtF.  Of course, if you weren't there you could not do that.  If you pled guilty to the speeding, I'm a bit surprised they dropped it and didn't give you points for that as well - so in that sense you've been lucky.  (I'm assuming they must have prosecuted you in time for the speeding?)

 

Don't know about the level of fine I'm afraid.  Did you supply the court with income details?

 

Somebody else may know if there's anything else you can do (eg about the refused adjournment?).

[hopey7]

I wasn’t actually out of the country but having accepted to do the contract down by the south coast, it was difficult to get a replacement.

 

I initially pled not guilty, hoping to attend court and try to get the FtF dropped.

But when it became obvious that I couldn’t attend court and the case would proceed in my absence, I decided to change my plea and hope the prosecutor might be kind too. 

 

I was lucky with the points though cos it was entirely out of my hands and I could easily have got 9pts.

 

Just a bit miffed about the level of fine as I supplied income/expenditure details. 

 

Thanks Manxman in exile. 

[Manxman in exile]

Yeah - lucky not to get nine points then.

 

I presume the fine would be in accordance with your declared income(?).  Don't know enough about the fines structure to comment further.  Somebody else might know if you can question it.

 

I will answer properly tomorrow as I have limited access at present.

[Man in the middle]

It seems there are a number of issues here. The first is that the matter was heard in your absence even though you informed the court that you would not be able to attend the hearing. It is most unusual for a court not to allow an adjournment for a minor motoring matter when the defendant has asked for one and has a good reason for asking.

 

Unfortunately, pleading guilty to speeding was the worst thing you could have done. They have no evidence that you were driving (that comes from you providing your details). When I asked you earlier whether you intended to ask for the usual “deal” (to drop the FtF charge in exchange for pleading guilty to speeding) I assumed you knew that you must maintain Not Guilty pleas to both matters until the deal was agreed. What I don’t understand is why you have not been convicted of speeding in view of that plea (and, as mentioned, how you didn’t land up with nine points).

 

The fine and costs seem to have been based on the default weekly income of £440 per week (the fine is 1.5 times weekly income). So, unless the income you stated was coincidentally £440 pw, it seems the statement of income you provided has not been used.

 

This is a mess, some of it down to you and some, it seems possibly down to the court. An appeal to the Crown Court is not advisable. You have not mentioned why you failed to provide the driver’s details but without you being there to offer a defence (and it’s a difficult charge to defend anyway) you were probably properly convicted of that. You were also lucky not to have been convicted of speeding. If you appeal against conviction to the Crown Court it will almost certainly fail and you may end up with a speeding conviction plus the Crown Court costs (which may be around £1k) into the bargain.

 

I believe your avenue of approach should be to the Clerk to the Justices of the area where the court is (details are available online from HMRC website). You should asked for the matter to be reopened under Section 142 of the Magistrates’ Court act. Paragraph 1 of that section says this:

 

  Power of magistrates’ court to re-open cases to rectify mistakes etc.

(1)    A magistrates’ court may vary or rescind a sentence or other order imposed or made by it when dealing with an offender if it appears to the court to be in the interests of justice to do so; and it is hereby declared that this power extends to replacing a sentence or order which for any reason appears to be invalid by another which the court has power to impose or make.

 

You should make your request on the grounds that you were refused the adjournment you requested, were not informed of that refusal, and therefore had no opportunity to attend your hearing. I would attach a copy of your original request. You were therefore not able to properly state your case. You can also state that you were not fined in accordance with your means (though be a bit careful with that if your income is significantly above £440 pw).

 

The issue really is that, faced with being unable to attend the hearing and learning only a short time beforehand that your adjournment had not been granted you were panicked into action that you had not properly considered (i.e. pleading guilty to speeding). I would not, however, put it like that (because that is what you intend to do anyway if you get a fresh hearing and are able to do a “deal”). The deal with the prosecution is conducted routinely every day and will be well known to the Clerk to the Justices, the prosecutor and the Magistrates. But you need to secure a fresh hearing, have the original conviction set aside, and start anew. A request under S142 is the only way to achieve that so I hope you succeed. You may want to seek legal advice to help you with the above. Alas to get representation in court will almost certainly cost you more than you might save but bear in mind you now have an endorsement code MS90 on your licence. Insurers absolutely hate that (because they wonder what you might have done that you didn't want to accept you were driving) and it will increase your premiums for up to five years (might be worth getting a couple of dummy quotes to see the effect).

 

I don't think I can help much further but if so le me know.

 

Edited June 18, 2019 by Man in the middle

[hopey7]

 

Obviously I panicked and  decided to put up some kind of representation and hope for the best rather than NOT showing up and NOTHING for the court to rely on leaving me at risk of 9pts. 

 

This appears to be the case cos the income statement is a little over £440.

 

Could it be that because I didn't provide details of the driver they chose to ignore my plea on speeding.

 

When I saw the 6pts, I almost fainted cos I was obviously expecting to get another 3pts for speeding which I pleaded guilty to.

 

I drive for a living and currently have 3pts on my license.

But I turned over the pages of the court letter and there was no mention of the speeding charge.

So even though I feel happy with the outcome (it could have been worse due to all the mess), I can now see that I didn't get a fair shot.

 

Great stuff Man in the middle, worth waiting for.

 

i will try the section 142 route.

 

BTW what is the time limit to put in the appeal?

It has been 14 days since the judgment.

[Man in the middle]

Unlike an appeal to the Crown Court (where the time limit is 21 days) there is no time limit on S142 applications (as far as I can recall). However, you need to act asap because the longer you leave it the less likely the court is to accede to your request to reopen.

 

It occurs to me from what you have said that if the court seemingly ignored your statement of income the likely explanation is they received neither that nor your guilty plea to speeding.

 

There is no reason for the speeding matter to be dropped if you pleaded guilty, but it could not be proved without your guilty plea.

 

There is a strong likelihood that neither were received and this could add a bit of weight to your request to have the matter reopened.

 

If you do manage to get your matter reopened, whatever you do, do not plead guilty to either offence until you have explored the possibility of the deal.

 

If your offer of the deal is declined you should maintain your NG plea to speeding (it cannot be proved without you providing your details in the form of a Section 172 response).

 

You haven't mentioned why you failed to respond but if you have no valid defence and the prosecution insists on continuing it you may be forced into a guilty plea.

 

At least you'll get a third off the fine (though not the points) and the costs will be limited to £85.

 

Seems very strange to me they didn't allow an adjournment(?).

 

Looks as if s.142 is your only likelihood of getting the six points reduced to three (and stopping insurance premiums rocketing because of the FtF conviction).

 

I wonder if there's any potential downside to going down the s.142 route, or just be grateful you didn't end up with nine points.  Perhaps Man in the middle can advise?

Edited June 18, 2019 by Man in the middle

[hopey7]

I thought this might be the case also.

 

I sent my plea and means statement over a weekend.

I then called the court on the Monday, the day before my case, to ask if it they received the documents.

I was assured that they received it and attached to my file ready for the court.

I made a record of names of people I spoke to.

 

I will seek some legal advice beforehand which is why I asked about time limit.

 

From previous discussion, I don't have any valid defence.

 

But my reason was that I didn't receive the original NIP.

A reminder arrived 7 days to the deadline.

 

I emailed to ask for more time because I was certain that I was on a 40MPH road and wanted to visit the location again.

But I now realise that providing driver details has nothing to do with all that.

 

I didn't get further time and the deadline expired.

Weeks later, the summons arrived.

[Manxman in exile]

Good Luck.

 

Also, I don't understand how they dropped the speeding charge if you pled guilty to it.  Either they felt sorry for you or your case has attracted a lot of weird stuff!

[hopey7]

Cheers..

[Man in the middle]

There's nothing to lose (provided no guilty plea to speeding is entered).

The very worst that can happen is a conviction for FtF (which the OP already has) and there is the opportunity to (at best) do the deal and have the FtF dropped) or at least to see a discount and reduced costs applied for a guilty plea for the FtF.

[hopey7]

***************UPDATE***************

Thanks to all you legends, I got a positive response to my request to have my case re-opened.

 

My letter basically pointed out that both my request for transfer and adjournment were refused but I was not notified, I only found out when I telephoned the court. I also said that it appeared to me that the documents that I sent to the court, i.e my PLEA and means statement, were not presented to the magistrate as I was not fined according to my income.

 

The letter I received in response says that my case has been re-listed for hearing in September AT MY LOCAL COURT. The magistrate will then consider re-opening the case and rescinding the conviction/order made against me.

 

I think this is a great result, so I thought I'd share with you all.

 

Cheers.

[Man in the middle]

Great news and just about the best you could have hoped for.

 

If you can, try to seek out the prosecutor before the court sits and ask whether the "deal" might be on offer. If you can't do that, make your offer in court when asked how you plead. It would be unusual for it to be refused but, to reiterate, do not plead guilty to either offence until that has been explored. If the deal is declined do not plead guilty to speeding! Simply maintain NG pleas to both. Your trial will not take place at that hearing and you can decide whether you have a viable defence to the FtP charge in the meantime.

 

I don't recall you mentioning the alleged speed/limit but if you feel very cheeky and the speed is low enough you could ask the court to consider sentencing you at the Fixed Penalty level. They have guidance which says this:

 

Where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances.

 

It's arguable that you contributed to the difficulties (by failing to respond to the request for driver's details) but don't ask and you won't get. The worst they can do is say "No" and sentence you in accordance with the guidelines.

 

Hope it goes well.

Edited July 6, 2019 by Man in the middle

[dx100uk]

great work everyone..

 

dx

 

[hopey7]

Thanks Man in the middle.

Btw alleged speed was 39 on a 30 zone.

I thought I was on a 40mph road.

Found out later on google that the speed limit had been changed only a few months before.