VCS/BW PCN PAPLOC Now Claimform - no permit - Woodside Business Park, Peel Investments, Birkenhead

[ericsbrother]

the babelfish translator regurgitates this offer as " pease agree to pay us somehting or we will have paid out a lot of money fro nothing as we know we cant win"

[Dave962]

Hi

 

I've just received N24 General Form of Judgement.

 

It says my hearing will be heard on the telephone.

 

I'm booked in for 23rd October.

 

I guess this is the stage now where I need to prepare my case for the judge?

 

Any advice you can offer appreciated as always.

[dx100uk]

what else does it say you have to do?

date for ws exchange?

date vcs has to pay a fee?

 

[Dave962]

Hi DX 

 

The previous letter gave all that. This letter begins with "This order replaces any previous order".

 

As far as I can see, there is no other things left for me to do on this current letter, other than send the stuff over 14 days in advance.

[dx100uk]

so WS time then.

use our enhanced google search box

 

plenty of 'no stopping witness statement'

 

examples here already

 

dx

[Dave962]

Hi DX

 

I've had a start at looking at this tonight. It seems like such a mountain to climb now.

 

Wrt to the WS, is the 'no stopping' the most appropriate for me, or more general parking ticket 'offences'?

 

The ones that I have looked at seem to refer to a different type of scenario which is worrying me a little.

 

It just seems like a case of not seeing the wood for the trees. I'm sure it will all clear up with time.

[dx100uk]

did we not confirm previously this was an area covered by its own byelaws .?

 

[dx100uk]

On 05/03/2020 at 22:47, dx100uk said:

a very important piece of info that ...

type in peel investments in our search.

think you'll find as with all peel investments sites in Manchester/Liverpool etc

they are all port authority land covered by byelaws that no tinpot parking company can over ride.

 

vcs as with all airports sites

sc@m parkers out of money when they have zero locus standi 

 

dx

 

 

thought so.

 

which is why i said use no stopping as other ws's wont inc the very important byelaws bits.

 

don't forget they are EXAMPLES

YOU have to adapt to your situation and your filed defence.

 

which might inc various bits from various WS's.

 

but as you've been here since 2016 and have been reminded numerous time in this very thread to always be ahead of the game and get ready for the next part before you are advised of it

i'm sure your self help is already advanced on WS's.

[Dave962]

I've just discovered a colleague successfully appealed with POPLA against VCS, back in Dec 14. Details of the appeal can be seen below...

 

Would referencing this in the court case assist me do you think?

 

Reasons for the Assessor’s Determination

 

It is the operator’s case that a parking charge notice was correctly issued, giving the reason as: ‘parked without displaying a valid ticket/permit’. The operator submits that a parking charge is now due in accordance with the clearly displayed terms of parking.

 

The appellant has made a number of submissions. However, I will only elaborate on the one submission that I will be allowing this appeal on, namely that the parking charge of £100 is not a genuine pre-estimate of the operator’s loss.

 

In order to justify that the amount is a genuine pre-estimate of loss, the operator submitted a breakdown of the losses they incurred as a result of the appellant’s breach. Amongst other things, the operator has included costs such as the debt recovery process and final reminder process costs which cannot be taken into account as the operator has not incurred this loss as a result of the appellant’s breach.

 

I am not minded to accept the debt recovery process as part of the justification as not all parking charge notices will go to the debt recovery process stage. I also find that the operator cannot claim the “2nd Stage Process” to be a separate heading of losses incurred as a result of the appellant’s breach. This is because the procedure for dealing with an appeal is not structured in a way so that the appellant can re-appeal to the operator.

 

Therefore, I find that it is not reasonable for the operator to pre-estimate this as a loss.

I find that the list submitted by the operator does not substantially reflect the loss suffered as a result of the appellant’s breach. This is because it appears that a substantial portion of the costs refer to the debt recovery process and the “2nd Stage Process”.

 

Considering carefully all the evidence before me, I find that the damages sought on this particular occasion do not amount to a genuine pre-estimate of loss.

 

Accordingly, I allow the appeal

[lookinforinfo]

No sadly that doesn't work now-not since Parking Eye v Beavis.

 

What  does work  is 

 

1] the area is covered by its own Bye Laws so POfa is not relevant

 

2] the signage is forbidding so no contract can be formed

 

3] without a permit showing you were trespassing and only the land owner can sue for trespass therefore VCS has no Locus standi

 

4] the signage shows the BPA logo not IPC logo 

 

5] the maximum amount that can be charged is £100. Anything over that is double recovery as VCS know well since they have lost cases already by claiming too much

 

6] by taking you wrongly to Court they have breached your |GDPR and are liable to pay around £500  these days for that breach.

 

6] as they have not responded to your CPR  you do not believe that they have permission from the local Council to erect their signs under Town and Country [Advertisements]  Regulations.

 

not to have that necessary permission is a criminal offence and a breach of their own Code of Conduct and they have to comply with that Code to enable them to obtain your data from the DVLA.

 

If you get all that in with examples from this Forum and other cases from the Parking Prankster it should be a piece of cake should VCS be stupid enough to go to Court.

[dx100uk]

dont think they need planning on byelaws land from the council? the council don't own the land?

 

 

[Dave962]

Thanks LFI and DX

 

The other question I have relates to the Byelaws.

 

I know the Byelaws sign is at the entrance to the car park, and I have pictures of that.

 

Do I need to supplement this with a copy of the byelaws? The only copy I can really find is a 2020 draft copy that was submitted in May, below...

 

The 2020 makes a reference to parking vehicles during night. Will this copy suffice or not as the date proceeds the offence? I'm sure it superseded a previous set of Byelaws but they seem difficult to find.

 

CONFIRMATION OF BYELAWS

CONFIRMATION OF BYELAWS

The Mersey Docks and Harbour Company Limited – Port of Liverpool Notice is hereby given that The Mersey Docks and Harbour Company Limited intends, after the expiry of the period stated below, to apply to the Secretary of State for Transport for confirmation of updated Byelaws in respect of the Port of Liverpool made under s.221 of The Mersey Dock Acts Consolidation Act 1858. The updated Byelaws can be viewed online at https://www. peelports.com/media/5448/ draft-port-of-liverpool-generalbyelaws- 2020.pdf.

 

Copies of the Byelaws will be kept at Maritime Centre, Port of Liverpool, Liverpool, L21 1LA and will be open to inspection without payment on Monday to Friday 0900-1700 for one calendar month from the date of first publication of this notice. Copies of the Byelaws will also be supplied on receipt of an application accompanied by a fee of £1 plus postage for each copy. Please direct any request to R. J. W. Blythe (Marine Operations Manager) at the above stated address. Any objection to the application for the confirmation of the Byelaws may be made by letter addressed to Dean Muir, Department for Transport, 2/33 GMH, Great Minster House, 33 Horseferry Road, London, SW1P 4DR before the Byelaws are confirmed. F. A. Khan General Counsel & Company Secretary Monday 18th May 2020 TM REF: 225969058-01

 

draft-port-of-liverpool-general-byelaws-2020.pdf

[dx100uk]

you mean the incident precedes those byelaws surely?

 

[Dave962]

Yes exactly.

 

Ive found a 2017 copy the same, but that too had DRAFT written all over it.

 

But can't really find much earlier than that.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Dave962

[FTMDave]

I note they give details of someone you can contact who will give you your own copy of the 2020 bye-laws for £1.

 

Might it be worth contacting this person to ask if they can supply you with a copy of the 2015 bye-laws?

 

 

[Dave962]

Thanks Dave, I'm on the case with your suggestion.

 

If it's ok, do you mind if I send a quick first draft over of my WS? I've spent days already on this now, preparing and researching and my head is hurting off it. I realise I am crying it in, but it would just be really useful for me to know if I was on the right tracks, before I further waste time!

 

You can see it's heavily copy and pasted, but the bits I don't feel are relevant I've kept in Italic, but left them in purely in case you think that actually they can be of help, even though I don't think they can be...

 

 

 

[dx100uk]

1st point under summary.

 

i am the registered keeper of the vehicle reg xxxxxxx 

[Dave962]

Thanks DX, corrected.

 

I'll take another look at it tomorrow with a clear head.

 

I've started the process of obtaining the Byelaws, and I have been passed on to port police who have been inquisitive to my request. I'll see what they say when they get back to me.

[dx100uk]

the permit you have 

who gave it to you and does it mention MHDC?

 

 

[Dave962]

Sorry I thought that first bit wasn’t very clear. I was just trying to push I had a valid Peel Ports ISPS Parking Pass (green one).

 

This can be seen clearly in the car window in their photographs.

 

The Woodside Business Park pass is the pass I did not display that night. 
 

I guess I was just trying to link my port pass, to the Byelaws...although I probably didn’t make that very clear in my intro?

 

Edit....this Peel pass was issued by port police though.

 

Edit 2! The Woodside pass is issued by the property manager or secretary of Peel L&P group management ltd.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Dave962

[dx100uk]

eh?

 

you have some form of authority issued to you from the port authority that you must hold/use/display to be even on the land - that totally blow any need for anything else. 

 

you to roll all the byelaws stuff into one statement,

 

your conclusion being

- it is obvious the land is owned by an airport authority governed by their relevant byelaws,  as i must display/use/hold a permit from them to enter their land.

 

Any parking infringements would be by way of prosecution under those byelaws after the issuance of a PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE.

 

A Penalty Charge Notice cannot be adjudged in a County Court but only within the Magistrates System as they are Legitimate Fines and not merely a claim of breaking some imaginary contract under contract Laws be one in existence or not in the County Court .

[Dave962]

Thanks DX.

 

Well it is a bit messy isn’t it.

 

For my job I drive all around the port, to various docks and quays where I leave the car. This is what I need my green ISPS Peel pass for. I don’t ‘need’ it for Woodside.

 

The Woodside business permit is self explanatory.

 

However, like you say you would think the Peel one would override the Woodside one, but I guess our friends at VCS are only concerned with the Woodside pass?

 

I did make it clear to them from the beginning I held the port pass, which you would have thought granted me an exemption??

[dx100uk]

they dont care dave and will say anything which is why you never bother to appeal in the se cases

but the judge will.

 

you are thinking the wrong way in your WS.

and don't forget it is in SUPPORT of your stated defence which mentioned such as we adapted it to Inc the byelaws issue.

 

so ..

 

forget you even NEED anything to park in woodside

it is obvious ALL the land is gov't by byelaws, youMUST have a pass to be on the land 

 

write as i do above.

 

 

[Dave962]

Thanks DX I've put those notes into practice.

 

Just to be clear, the case is held on the 23rd.

 

I believe the best way of sending the pack over is by post/email to the court, and post to Simon, is this correct?

 

Also, for the 14 days, just to be clear, as I don't want to give Simon the extra day if I miss calculate, is my 14 day deadline Friday 9th 4pm?

 

Again, trying to give Simon minimum time to view my bundle, I suppose the best way of doing this is posting the day before by Special Delivery?

[dx100uk]

you are a LiP so don't worry too much about ensuring it arrives exactly on time. esp to simple simon.

though you have theirs so there is not anything they can really do once they have it.

i would post say weds next week to both 

 

lets nail this ws properly in the week we have

 

dx