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    • Thank you so much for the reply and apologies for swearing. Will start a new topic.   Pierre
    • you need to create a new topic of your own please   hit create in the top red banner. please don't swear either..post above edited.   yes I would get all the payments back from NW under chargeback and remove that account as a payment method to PP as well as you say via CPA..   dx  
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    • ring the clerk  ask what was wrong.   I think I know but not sure.   dx  
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Crazy77

£4k+ CTAX LO's Cancelled - now going for statutory Demand - help

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I'm not sure im in the correct place as it's the first time iv posted for advice.

 

i have council tax arrears that date from 2008 to 2017. 

 

November last year we received a notification of withdrawn offences from the magistrate court for non payment of council tax and cost of £4867 in respect of the period 01/04/2008 to 31/03/2017

No further action will be taken against you

 

we  have now been issued with a statutory demand for the arrears.

 

Id be most grateful for any advice as to if the council can still take legal action for the arrears.

 

Thank you in advance.

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Hi and Welcome to the Forum.

 

I have moved your thread to the appropriate forum ...please continue to post here.

 

Regards

 

Andy


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We could do with some help from you.

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sorry so debt must be over £5k now to issue an SD?

and surely if the LO's have been cancelled? then some of this debt is outside 6yrs so statute barred now?

 

 


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3 hours ago, Crazy77 said:

I'm not sure im in the correct place as it's the first time iv posted for advice.

 

i have council tax arrears that date from 2008 to 2017. 

 

November last year we received a notification of withdrawn offences from the magistrate court for non payment of council tax and cost of £4867 in respect of the period 01/04/2008 to 31/03/2017

No further action will be taken against you

 

we  have now been issued with a statutory demand for the arrears.

 

Id be most grateful for any advice as to if the council can still take legal action for the arrears.

 

Thank you in advance.

 

Usually there is no notification from the Magistrates that a council tax summons has been withdrawn (in well over a decade of working in council tax I've not come across a court who does so) - had the council been looking at taking some other legal action against you (fraud by misrepresentation etc) as that notification sounds more like you'd receive from that ? If so, then these actions are entirely separate to the pursuing arrears via council tax legislation.

 

Why is the council tax outstanding ?

 

Stat Demands are a pain and not always correct - I dealt with one earlier this year who'd been issued with one for £16k and the council had refused to budge. After about 3 months we finally got them to admit the whole of the council tax charge was wrong and they withdrew the action ! I'd hate to see how much cost the council for their mistake.

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51 minutes ago, dx100uk said:

sorry so debt must be over £5k now to issue an SD?

and surely if the LO's have been cancelled? then some of this debt is outside 6yrs so statute barred now?

 

 

Depends on when the demand notice was issued as to when the 6 year period under regulation 34 starts - it is not always the same date as the period the charge is from.

 

My bigger concern would be, if liability orders had been withdrawn, why a stat demand is in place. A stat demand would require a liability order to be in place before the application could be made.

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I didn't think any previous court claims under any guise [be it a mag LO nor a county CCJ] has to be made to issue a statutory demand?

we used to see these like water from DCA's when no other court proceedings had ever been instigated?

why is a CTAX debt any diff?

 

dx


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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, dx100uk said:

I didn't think any previous court claims under any guise [be it a mag LO nor a county CCJ] has to be made to issue a statutory demand?

we used to see these like water from DCA's when no other court proceedings had ever been instigated?

why is a CTAX debt any diff?

 

dx

The bankruptcy application of the back of the Stat Demand would require a liability order.

In theory a Stat Demand could be completed and sent without one but it's unlikely the council are going to do so over £4k without having the powers to follow through on the threatened bankruptcy (otherwise they're left high and dry in that respect). The bankruptcy application following the Stat Demand would need a liability order.

Edited by ss002d6252

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" The bankruptcy application following the Stat Demand would need a liability order."

 

Only if the SD was served using form 6.2 instead of 6.1...6.1 does not require any Judgment /Order/LO. 

You can present a bankruptcy petition without serving a statutory demand if: enforcement of the Judgment/Order/LO fails to get some or all of the money;

 

Andy


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34 minutes ago, Andyorch said:

" The bankruptcy application following the Stat Demand would need a liability order."

 

Only if the SD was served using form 6.2 instead of 6.1...6.1 does not require any Judgment /Order/LO. 

You can present a bankruptcy petition without serving a statutory demand if: enforcement of the Judgment/Order/LO fails to get some or all of the money;

 

Andy

Even if they wanted to try the general bankruptcy route for a debt then council tax legislation would not allow it.


Section 14 & Schedule 4 of the 1992 Act specifies the details of council tax recovery and how that can be undertaken (finer details provided via subordinate legislation).  Reg 49 of the Administration & Enforcement Regs 1992 provides that council tax enforcement requires a liability order is in place for bankruptcy. Trying to recover via another route would be outside of their powers.

 

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So what is the outcome for the OP??

they cant go for one as its under £5k total?

or because the LO's (that have been cancelled??) Are pre Xxx date they can??

im confused!!


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£4867 in respect of the period 01/04/2008 to 31/03/2017

 

I would assume that some bogus charges have been added since and pushed it over the threshold.


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Reg 49 states that " For the purposes of this regulation the amount due is an amount equal to any outstanding sum which is or forms part of the amount in respect of which the liability order was made " so it's very woolly but it should include the liability & summons costs. It is silent on bankruptcy costs.

As council tax legislation does not set any limit on the amounts that can be claimed in bankruptcy (and effectively only provides that a liability order is to be considered a provable debt) I would expect that the standard Insolvency Act rules would apply as to whether or not costs can be added to the debt or not etc etc.

Until the OP clarifies what's in place and what isn't then it's difficult to say more.

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36 minutes ago, dx100uk said:

So what is the outcome for the OP??

they cant go for one as its under £5k total?

or because the LO's (that have been cancelled??) Are pre Xxx date they can??

im confused!!

The balance on the liability orders is a provable debt (without a liability order that debt is not provable) - whether or not there is enough other debt under the Insolvency Act to top it up to £5k or more is another matter (it's possible that he has other debts that can be rolled in from the council etc).
 

There is no time limit on enforcement on a liability order once it's been obtained so there's no time limits in respect of the Limitation Act 1980 (That's already been considered and dismissed by the courts).

As long as the original liability orders were obtained within 6 years of the amount being billed for then there's no issue i respect of the liability orders being obtained in the first place.

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So the LO's stand still? Even though the magistrate said "withdrawal of offences"

 


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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, dx100uk said:

So the LO's stand still? Even though the magistrate said "withdrawal of offences"

 

Possibly. 'Withdrawal of offences' is not terminology that would be used with liability orders (unless it had perhaps been taken for committal& withdrawn - in which case only the committal action is ceased, not the actual liability order itself) .

There's something odd abut this one nut unless the OP comes back to provide far more details the I'd say we're at a standstill.
 

Edited by ss002d6252

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Glad its not just me!!


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It's all very confusing.

In respect of withdrawal of liability orders then it is only strictly speaking available on application by the council under s82 of the LGA2003, in which case an order can be quashed. The other way would be to ask the court to re-open the hearing and decide again whether or not the order should be granted (effectively restarting the hearing) so not technically withdrawing anything.

 

(Apologies for the any typos- my keyboard is knackered and doesn't like fast typing (something has been spilt on it I think as the keys are sticking) ).
 

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