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    • Thanks DX.  I've ploughed through the pages and dug out what I feel are the relevant ones. Obviously, some of these are duplicates of what I've put up before.  Anyway, I would be hugely grateful if someone can look over and advise. Reading though other posts and on other cases that I've had help with from here, I don't think they have much of a case - given the weakness of much of their "evidence" - but obviously I would be grateful for some expert advice from the helpful souls on here.    Thank you.    B   Witness Oct19_redacted.pdf
    • You came here for advice, soem advice has been given adn you question the validity and source of that advice. We are all lay peopele, ie not giving professional advice but it is based on experience of the world and in some cases working in the field that advice is given on. Now you dont have to take our advice, we wont get the huff if you prefer to look elsewhere or do something else. when I asked what you think they would do with your NI number it is to prod you to think for yourself and question why they would ask for this when there is nothing legal they can do with the information so wouild you be wnating to give it to them knowing that they would want it to break the law if they processed it. Now you can take that up with the company at the top but TBH unless you want to spend money on a lawyer they will not answer the question or fob you off with some ridiculous answer anyway.   so for the moment read a lot about  RLP and similar situations to yours ans make particular note of what happened to the peopel in the end. You will find no threads theat ended by saying " thanks to you I gor sued by RLP and owe them a fortune". It isnt going to happen and the reasons why are explained in many threads. They rely on your feeling of guilt to get anywhere
    • you need to respond to their letter saying that you belive that you ahve been paid correctly ( or underpaid if you are due a small amount of accrued holiday pay etc) and demand that they show a full account of what you received, when and why and how they arrived at this figure. You then reconcile that with your P45 and use the figures to bat off any furhter demands if they still akke one. Come back if they dotn drop the matter and give us the full breakdown on hours worked, hourly rate, gross pay, tax paid  etc
    • @dx100ukI never got a response to my SAR from Octopus.   But I have just received a 'letter before court action' from one of their legal representatives, who have been "instructed to consider legal action against [me] if full payment, a settlement or your proposals to make suitable repayments arrangements are not received in the next 30 days."   I'm reading the threads now. Any advice on how to proceed? 
    • I would say let them do their worst, it will surely backfire on them. Now with restrictive contracts that stop you working fro competitors- these are notoriously vague so often not worth the paper they are written on. also they have to be fair so for example if there are only 2 companies in the UK that make a certain product your employer cant say you arent allowed to work for the other one. If you were for example trained as a hairdersser and you were going to open a salon in the next street to your ex employer then the restriction would apply if worded correctly. Dont panic about this, your new employer will be au fait with the situation and time spent worrying about a nastly letter will in their eyes take you eye off the ball so concentrate on the new job.
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Shelley181146

UC deducting 'Under Occupancy' from benefit

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Hope this is the correct forum for this thread, please move if you feel it appropriate.

 

Currently living in three bedroomed property alone. 

Moved in 14 years ago with family of hubby and two children.

Cut a long story short, children flown the nest, hubby died.

 

Local council not insisting I move because they have a major shortage of smaller properties and when I am at work I pay full rent and the 'Under Occupancy' is not an issue. I accept that I have to pay full rent accordingly.

 

However, in March I had an accident from a defective vehicle I was driving and have been unable to drive or work since, hence my claim for Universal Credit.

 

They are deducting 25% of my Housing element (just shy of £100) which I am unable to make up.

 

Last year I submitted an appeal to the council who refused it, and then found out I should appeal to DWP as they were at that time deducting it from benefit.

got a tribunal hearing and they believe that the law has moved on since 'Nelson' FIFE case Upper Tier Tribunal, which it hasn't, it still has to be abided by, and there are several issues which the judge has not taken into consideration.

 

Does anyone have any legal knowledge on a scenario whereby the central heating boiler is situated in a box room, cited above the bulkhead of the stairs, which is obviously not heated the same as other rooms in the property?

 

Also, if a single bed were to be situated where the judge suggests, the occupant of the bed could very easily burn themselves on the radiator.

 

Is there any fire regs or is there a specific space allowed between the radiator and the bed,

should radiators be covered in small spaces to prevent burns?

Is there any guidance in this regard?

Maybe under fire regs?

 

Would appreciate peoples responses if you have experience of this type of appeal.

 

Andy Orch, are you aware of any similar scenario's?


Santander PPI X 2 **WON** claims on behalf of son (Oct 2010/ Mar 2011)

Citicard O/H (PPI) - **WON** Compound Interest Dec 2011

Citicard O/H (Charges) Bailiffs sent in August 2012

Barclaycard - **WON** Compound Interest Oct 2011

Monument - account information being sought for OH

Citicard - self - N1 submitted August 2012

Barclaycard - self - **WON** damages for non disclosure/information now rec'd. Aug 2012

Barclaycard - relation - Failed SAR sent 29/09/11

Halifax SAR sent 18/08/2011 for relation

LTSB - SAR sent 09/08/2011 for friend

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For benefit purposes you are arguing that the house does not have the 3 bedrooms that are listed, because of various factors you believe are in your favour.

 

If you were successful, no doubt the landlord would then have a property which was worth less, as it has fewer bedrooms.

 

I think your argument would be with whoever you rent the house from. That some of the bedrooms no longer qualify as bedrooms. I think some of the law has changed, given how small many bedrooms are in new houses. Shops must be selling smaller sized beds to fit in these, as normal sized beds would not fit.  If you called the housing charity Shelter, they should have details of all of the legislation that applies. 

 

Here is a link to recent legislation i could find.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/616/regulation/2/made

 

 

if you are having your UC housing reduced due to spare bedrooms, then you would need to try to claim Discretionary Housing Allowance (DHA) from the local council. DHA is supposed to help people who due to health or not being able to work, cannot afford to pay their rent, when they have any reduction being applied to housing under UC.

 


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It's called local housing allowance, basically you are only entitled to presumably the one bedroom rate, as such thats all you will receive.

 

If your tenancy agreement states it's a three bed then that is what it is. Unless your landlord changes it I can't see anything changing in repsect of the LHA paid to you.

 

UC is not deducting anything, they are paying what you are entitled to.

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OP is describing Social Rented Sector e.g. Council or Housing Association, where 1 person in a 3 bed house would receive rent amount, less 25% deduction.

 

The LHA rate is Private Rented Sector, where 1 person in a 3 bed house only receives the 1 bed LHA rate if aged over 35 or is exempt from shared room rate if below 35.


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In essence its the same thing though, but i did miss the council bit

 

LHA rates or bedroom tax/under occupancy, however you want to call it.

 

They will only pay you the rate you are entitled to, based on the property and how many people live in it.

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For clarity is this a Council or Housing Association property at Social Rent?


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For clarification I am referring to Council tenancy, but the link Unclebulgaria67 has provided does not involve my situation as this is not a House of Multiple Occupation (HMO).

 

There are widespread (across the country) appeals on-going presently because the council do not have sufficient properties for people in similar circumstances to down size, meaning we are being penalised and having to find the 'Under Occupancy' premium.

 

They are using the fact that tenants signed for a 3 bedroom property and therefore still remains a 3 bedroom property. However, they are not taking into consideration that thousands of tenants moved into their properties long before this 'tax' into force and do not have sufficient properties to downsize those tenants.

 

You are digressing from my original questions in regards to fire safety regulations, and if the room is not heated the same as all other rooms in the property or sufficient furniture cannot fit in the 'available' floor space then I have a case to challenge the DWP/Council.

 

FtT judges do not fully understand the particulars of these cases and therefore people can further appeal to the UtT.

 

Bedroom Tax research evidence.doc


Santander PPI X 2 **WON** claims on behalf of son (Oct 2010/ Mar 2011)

Citicard O/H (PPI) - **WON** Compound Interest Dec 2011

Citicard O/H (Charges) Bailiffs sent in August 2012

Barclaycard - **WON** Compound Interest Oct 2011

Monument - account information being sought for OH

Citicard - self - N1 submitted August 2012

Barclaycard - self - **WON** damages for non disclosure/information now rec'd. Aug 2012

Barclaycard - relation - Failed SAR sent 29/09/11

Halifax SAR sent 18/08/2011 for relation

LTSB - SAR sent 09/08/2011 for friend

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On 10/05/2019 at 07:25, tomtom256 said:

In essence its the same thing though, but i did miss the council bit

 

LHA rates or bedroom tax/under occupancy, however you want to call it.

 

They will only pay you the rate you are entitled to, based on the property and how many people live in it.

But tenants are entitled to challenge this as caselaw has been fulfilled by SSWP v Nelson(2014) UKUT 525 (AAC)  


Santander PPI X 2 **WON** claims on behalf of son (Oct 2010/ Mar 2011)

Citicard O/H (PPI) - **WON** Compound Interest Dec 2011

Citicard O/H (Charges) Bailiffs sent in August 2012

Barclaycard - **WON** Compound Interest Oct 2011

Monument - account information being sought for OH

Citicard - self - N1 submitted August 2012

Barclaycard - self - **WON** damages for non disclosure/information now rec'd. Aug 2012

Barclaycard - relation - Failed SAR sent 29/09/11

Halifax SAR sent 18/08/2011 for relation

LTSB - SAR sent 09/08/2011 for friend

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Yes tenants are, but the caselaw is specific to that case and the findings outlined in it.

 

You will need to use what it raised as your grounds for arguing the reduction is wrong.

 

I would argue that just because a room is not heated in a certain way that it would stop it being used as a bedroom. Many old houses do not have central heating, yet use the bedrooms accordingly.

 

Having re-read the OP I am also confused, as you state you tried to appeal last year, but only claimed UC in March. If you didn't have a reduction until March what did you try to appeal last year with your local council?

 

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The legal challenge here is really not about a benefits deduction, as an individual claimant. ( help may be available under Council Discretionary Housing Allowance, if UC is not covering the full rent) 

 

Say you did take this to a Court Tribunal, no Judge is going to say that it is wrong for DWP to make the deduction for spare bedrooms. The Government will have passed legislation that allows the spare room deduction. As far as I understand it a Court Tribunal Judge would normally only rule on DWP not applying legislation correctly. 

 

 If the house does not technically have 3 bedrooms for any reasons you can prove, then your complaint is with the landlord or their agent. Trying to get the house rated as having less than 3 bedrooms. It might not help, as you are still only entitled to a 1 bed rate.

 

Go to a housing charity such as Shelter and ask for their guidance on your legal rights in this situation. 

 

Here is last parliament memorandum that I could find on this subject.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/213/pdfs/uksiem_20170213_en.pdf


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Dependending upon the benefit you may be claiming, depends on whether you appeal this scenario to the Council or via DWP because they are making the deductions from your benefit.

If you are receiving HB - then you would appeal to the council, if you are in receipt of UC then you appeal via DWP.

However, I was misinformed by the council last year, even though UC was in place and was advised I needed to liaise with the Housing Manager. This delayed my appeal to the DWP, but was granted because I had evidence that the council had provided inaccurate information.

Since then, I returned to work but the appeal was still due to be heard by The First tier Tribunal, who lacked experience of these cases and rejected my appeal. Due to their errors in Law I have the option to take my case to the Upper tier Tribunal, which is what I am preparing for. 

I had an accident in work in March, hence my return to UC  and I now continue with the tribunal.

Shelter are already too far stretched in their resources and I know from past experience that CAG has very knowledgable legal guys here, which is why I posted my question.

 

I am somewhat surprised that you havent received queries in this regard, and it appears that I have more knowledge about my case, so with respect guys I will leave it there.

 

I will come back and post the outcome when the case is completed. Thanks everyone.

 

 


Santander PPI X 2 **WON** claims on behalf of son (Oct 2010/ Mar 2011)

Citicard O/H (PPI) - **WON** Compound Interest Dec 2011

Citicard O/H (Charges) Bailiffs sent in August 2012

Barclaycard - **WON** Compound Interest Oct 2011

Monument - account information being sought for OH

Citicard - self - N1 submitted August 2012

Barclaycard - self - **WON** damages for non disclosure/information now rec'd. Aug 2012

Barclaycard - relation - Failed SAR sent 29/09/11

Halifax SAR sent 18/08/2011 for relation

LTSB - SAR sent 09/08/2011 for friend

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Good luck. Would suggest that you contact organisations that have taken action previously against Government about housing, as they will have more information, which will help inform you about best way forward.

 

Having had a quick look into this, there seems to be quite a lot going on with bedroom tax. Apparently there will be a Supreme Court case at some point. This is a link to an Appeal court case.

 

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2018/548.html

 

 

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