Armtrac Security Services windcreen PCN - 4yrs ago - Now Letter from BW

[3cheekymonkeys]

Hi,

 

In 2015 we received a parking charge from Armtrac Security Services after the wind blew our valid parking ticket off the window. The ticket showed our registration so they knew we had a valid ticket. We had in fact paid for a full 24 hours, much more than we needed.

One letter to the company, a further letter to TCN (who also phoned and refused to tell me how they had got my number) and the correspondence stopped. However, I have now received a new letter from Armtrac and BW Legal. It isn't a LBA so I thinking I ignore this as well but just checking it isn't worth another 'go away'.

 

 

For a windscreen ticket (Notice To Driver) please answer the following questions....

 

1 The date of infringement? 07/04/15

 

2 Have you yet appealed to the parking company yet? [Y/N?] I tried once they sent their first letter, they refused to give me details.

 

if you have then please post up whatever you sent and how you sent it and the date you sent it,

suitably redacted. [as a PDF- follow the upload guide

 

has there been a response? Yes, I am not yet able to upload though

 

have you received a Notice To Keeper? (NTK) [must be received by you between 29-56 days]

what date is on it - 05/06/2015

Did the NTK provide photographic evidence? No

 

3 Did the NTK mention Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) [Y/N?] No

 

4 If you appealed after receiving the NTK,

did the parking company give you any information regarding the further appeals process? No, they rejected the appeal

 

5 Who is the parking company? KBT/Armtrac Security Services

 

6. where exactly [Carpark name and town] did you park? Sennen Beach P&D Car Park, Sennen Cove, Cornwall

 

Armtrac's second letter said they are registered with the IPC. I have copies of correspondence and the pay and display ticket and possibly pictures of car park signage. I do not have originals as I assumed after 4 years they had given up.

 

05/06/15 NTK

08/06/15 Wrote to Armtrac saying the NTK was too late and that the charge was disproportionate to their loss (they hadn't any loss as we had paid). At no point was the driver named.

02/07/15 Response from Armtrac saying it takes a long time to get details of keeper  hence delay in sending the letter and that they saw no reason for an appeal.

05/08/15 Further reponse from Armtrac saying pay up or it goes to legal department or debt collectors, incurring further  costs. Oh and informing me my time to appeal had now passed???

12/09/15 Letter from TCN telling us to name the driver. pay up or they involve litigation department. This letter refers to Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 but it also talks about paying them and letters they have written.

21/09/15 Wrote to TCN - same letter as sent to Armtrac but also asking for details of their appeal procedure as they are members of the BPA.

 

No further reponse until this week when we received a new letter from Armtrac with a letter from BW Legal enclosed. The balance is now £160 instead of £100 as it includes the client's legal fees. The BW legal letter gives me 14 days to pay or they wlll seek client's instructions to commence legal proceedings.

 

Elsewhere it has been suggested to take out a SAR against the PCC. Is it worth doing this for Armtrac and TCN? I would love to know where they got my phone number from...

 

Or do I wait for the letter before action?

 

[3cheekymonkeys]

Hi,

 

In 2015 we received a parking charge from Armtrac Security Services after the wind blew our valid parking ticket off the window.

 

The ticket showed our registration so they knew we had a valid ticket.

We had in fact paid for a full 24 hours, much more than we needed.

 

One letter to the company, a further letter to TCN (who also phoned and refused to tell me how they had got my number) and the correspondence stopped.

 

However, I have now received a new letter from Armtrac and BW Legal.

 

It isn't a LBA so I thinking I ignore this as well but just checking it isn't worth another 'go away'.

 

For a windscreen ticket (Notice To Driver) please answer the following questions....

 

1 The date of infringement? 07/04/15

 

2 Have you yet appealed to the parking company yet? [Y/N?] I tried once they sent their first letter, they refused to give me details.

 

if you have then please post up whatever you sent and how you sent it and the date you sent it,

suitably redacted. [as a PDF- follow the upload guide

 

has there been a response? Yes, I am not yet able to upload though

 

have you received a Notice To Keeper? (NTK) [must be received by you between 29-56 days]

what date is on it - 05/06/2015

Did the NTK provide photographic evidence? No

 

3 Did the NTK mention Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) [Y/N?] No

 

4 If you appealed after receiving the NTK,

did the parking company give you any information regarding the further appeals process? No, they rejected the appeal

 

5 Who is the parking company? KBT/Armtrac Security Services

 

6. where exactly [Carpark name and town] did you park? Sennen Beach P&D Car Park, Sennen Cove, Cornwall

 

Armtrac's second letter said they are registered with the IPC. I have copies of correspondence and the pay and display ticket and possibly pictures of car park signage. I do not have originals as I assumed after 4 years they had given up.

 

05/06/15 NTK

 

08/06/15 Wrote to Armtrac saying the NTK was too late and that the charge was disproportionate to their loss (they hadn't any loss as we had paid). At no point was the driver named.

 

02/07/15 Response from Armtrac saying it takes a long time to get details of keeper  hence delay in sending the letter and that they saw no reason for an appeal.

 

05/08/15 Further reponse from Armtrac saying pay up or it goes to legal department or debt collectors, incurring further  costs. Oh and informing me my time to appeal had now passed???

 

12/09/15 Letter from TCN telling us to name the driver. pay up or they involve litigation department. This letter refers to Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 but it also talks about paying them and letters they have written.

 

21/09/15 Wrote to TCN - same letter as sent to Armtrac but also asking for details of their appeal procedure as they are members of the BPA.

 

No further response until this week when we received a new letter from Armtrac with a letter from BW Legal enclosed.

The balance is now £160 instead of £100 as it includes the client's legal fees.

The BW legal letter gives me 14 days to pay or they wlll seek client's instructions to commence legal proceedings.

 

Elsewhere it has been suggested to take out a SAR against the PCC.

Is it worth doing this for Armtrac and TCN? I would love to know where they got my phone number from...

 

Or do I wait for the letter before action?

And here is the correspondence I have which now uploads as it is a smaller file

 

PCN_07_04_15_redacted_compressed.pdf

[fkofilee]

Hang on - Does the parking ticket show your Reg number? If so then this is will be fun...

[3cheekymonkeys]

Unfortunately not but we did have to put the reg number into the machine when the ticket was purchased. 

 

I need to try and find it but I believe I also have a photo which shows that the other half of the ticket was still on the window and that had the code for the ticket which I assume links to the machine.

 

Why ask for car reg if they can't use it to check the ticket?

[ericsbrother]

They are hoping that you have forgotten all about this and hae binned all of your paperwork and hence trying their luck at this late stage.

 

Now when you got the original charge notice was it a ticket slapped on the screen or was the first notice a letter through the post?

 

their comments will kill their claim if the former as they have to consider an appeal by law and you are right, the POFA doesnt allow them to create a keeper liability so they are barking up the wrong tree anyway

 

TNC's letter is worthy of a complaint to the FCA as none of it is true

 

BWL ae telling lies as they cannot assume that you were the driver and so the demand you pay £60 unicorn food tax is cobblers but they, like all of the parking world have this as an added bonus because most people are ignorant of the law and pay up because they think that the bill will go up to £200 and then £400 etc if they dont.

 

as this is not a LBA let them stew and only respond to a proper LBA.

If and when you get that you can tell them that they have failed to create a keeper liability and are damned by their own words and so have left themselves open for you to sue them for a lot more than they could ever claim from you, even if they had a case, which they dont

[3cheekymonkeys]

It was a ticket on the screen.

We tried complaining to the shop owner but they said it wasn't anything to do with them.

I did take photos of the signage and out window screen showing the remaining piece of ticket but unfortunately I can't find those.

I am very lucky that I still have these letters, good old googlemail.

 

I had completely failed to spot that they are now assuming I was the driver, thanks for that.

So I will wait and see if Armtrac/BW send a proper LBA. 

 

I will look into the complaint against TNC once and if the LBA letter turns up.

 

Thanks for the help.

I will  come back when the LBA appears.

[dx100uk]

as long a you've not moved since the event

safe to ignore 

[3cheekymonkeys]

OK, so we have now received a letter of claim which I have attached. The letter is dated 10th May but we received it today on 15th May.

 

I note that they are assuming they know who the driver is. We have never given them any indication of who the driver is.

 

Is there a standard response and do I send it to Armtrac or to BW Legal or both?

 

letter of claim bw legal redacted.pdf

[dx100uk]

Send bw one of ericbrothers snotty/insulting letters 

Dx

[3cheekymonkeys]

Where would I find such letter?

[dx100uk]

cag is also a self help forum and we have a very good custom google search box on the left after clicking our top left logo in the top red banner for you to research your issue.

 

you need to understand WHY such a letter is sent, not get it on a plate without the background as to why its worded in such a manner.

this will further your case cause oneday you could be in a courtroom with a judge being cross examined by the claimants solicitor, flipping ones lips and making silly noises wont cut it.

 

dx

[ericsbrother]

so what evidence do you have?

 

You appealed at the time and in that appeal you said you issued ME. Now that may be taken as that you were the driver and if that is the case then the timing of the NTK becomes irrelevant as far as keeper liablity goes as that is purely to create a keeper liability when the driver is unknown.

 

Now dont forget they can show a court that they sent the correct paperwork out in the prescribed time even if they didnt, they merely create a document tht fits in with the circumstances and without something to counter it it will be taken as a true version.

 

What about photographs of the signage and meters at the site? have you checked to see if they have planning permission for their equipment and signage with the local council? If the council say they dont need it then that means they dont have it rather than an application has been made and they have been told this, totally different.

 

Now they have failed to produce the supposed photographic evidence and that HAS to go on the NTK if they have any,, they cant spring it on you later as they have made clear they intend to so that damages their claim but will a judge decide that  the POFA is clear enough on this point? many judges wont have read the Act and soe that have interpret things differently until you press the point so you may well be the first case they have considered properly in this respect and for that reason it is wiswe to ahve several other strings to your bow.

 

The pressing thisng is how to respond to the BWL letter. I would check with the council about the planning as that is an absolute regardless of what lies they peddle and hit them with that if applicable.

 

get onto them today and come back here once you have an answer. The question is qquite simple, does Amtrac  have planning permission for its equipment and does it also have planning consent for its signage (2 separate things and laws). As alreadt said, if they waffle abot deemed consent the answer is NO and no need to try and qualify that.

[3cheekymonkeys]

Thanks for the reply.

I don't have any photographic evidence.

I am sure I did take photos but if I did these are deleted as they are from 2015 and they had stopped sending letters.

 

I have just the letters.

I did not receive any photographic evidence from them in the first instance and still have not.

Interesting that you interpret the use of the word me to suggest I am the driver as I then go on to decline to name the driver in the next sentence.

This was based on a standard letter from another help forum at the time.

I will talk to the council to see if they have planning permission.

 

So, they have neither planning permission for the equipment or planning consent for the signage.

 

Signage I was told consent was not needed as the signs were below a certain size, 0.3 sq m (she used google earth for this). 

 

Having taken a quick look myself I would think that the signs might be bigger than that.

Equipment: council equipment is exempt from planning permission but private parking machines it is not clear.

 

However as there has been a car park there for many years with machines they would not be likely to take any enforcement action.

 

She said it would be possible for them to undertake research to see whether planning permission was needed in this case but I would have to pay for that research inquiry. 

 

[ericsbrother]

re: signs of less than 0.3m2.

i warned you about falling for this, they have only read s 1 and 2 of the 2007 Act and not got down to s 16. They are busy people what with oversize extensions and too tall leylandii to worry about. No one can force the council to take enforcement action but that doesnt make them legal.

 

You have your answer and that will satusfy a judge- THEY DO NOT HAVE PLANNING PERMISSION SO AS THAT IS A CRIMINAL OFFENCE YOU CANNOT ENTER INTO A CRIMINAL COMPACT WITH THEM EVEN IF YOU WANTED TO.

now this is where doing your homework would have helped you as you would ahve said to the council " thank you very much" once yo knew they had no PP and just told us that rather than telling us what the  office junior told you which is what we warned you about in the first place.

 

So, back to BWL threatogram.

 Dear sirs,

as the parking world's second worst solicitors I accept that you may not be experts on things you are paid to spout forth on behalf of your client so forgive you for repeating their twaddle.  As it is their money that will be wasted if they pursue this further as you say they are intent upon I can state categorically there was no breach of contract by myself  becasue there was no contract to breach. Should they be persuaded to continue with this folly I shall counterclaim for breach of the DPA (as was) and request a full costs recovery order as any action would be unreasonable conduct when it is within their capabiliites to know why  no contract could be created.

I am sure that you would like to keep your reputation and will inform your client  of the full content of this response.

 

send a copy to Amtrac as well as BWL

[3cheekymonkeys]

Thanks for the reply and suggested response. Apologies if I gave you too much info/asked for too much info.

[ericsbrother]

apology not needed we just want you to understand the whys so you dont put your foot in it with a communication that hasnt been fully researched.

they really arent that stupid, just lazy because thye want to collect your money without any actual effort on their part because they are only charging a small fee for the letter writing in the hope they get a bigger slice of the cake later