Jump to content


  • Tweets

  • Posts

    • Apologies if this has already been covered elsewhere but I haven't found a direct answer so here's my question.   Both my daughter and my partner have today each received a Letter of Claim from NPS. Both refer to 'incidents' in 2017 - my daughter's in March and my partner's in April. I remember these only vaguely but can't remember what (if any) action we took.   I remember my partner's more clearly because in their PCN where they claimed she'd overstayed (Cross Street, Long Eaton) there was something drastically wrong with their 'evidence'. I can't remember exactly but either their stated times contradicted or -and this is more likely from conversation today - they only provided one photo which was of her car leaving but nothing showing her entering the car park.   I have a feeling my daughter just chose to ignore hers, based on 'urban myth' from friends.   So anyway, today - more than two years on - both suddenly receive these letters from NPS with the usual rhetoric. I want to make sure these are both managed appropriately so I'm not sure what to do next and would appreciate any advice. I'm also particularly interested to read elsewhere on this forum that another case from said car park was rejected by POPLA in May 2017 due to insufficient signage and lack of planning permission for the relevant equipment:     This being the case, the same would have to apply to both our cases since this rejected case occurred just weeks after both of ours.   Not sure how much bearing this may have but I'm hopeful and your advice will be both very welcome and much appreciated.        
    • There will be no issues with a course offer if the dates are as you say. The usual cut off is four months from the date of the offence. This is so as to give the driver the time to accept the offer and take the course before prosecution becomes "timed out" at six months.   However, if the NIPs really were the first to be issued and there are no issues with the address details then both have a cast iron defence to the speeding allegation. The first is dated 20 days after the alleged offence and the second 23 days after the alleged offence. The Road Traffic Offenders' Act makes it quite clear that if a NIP is not served within 14 days of the alleged offence then no prosecution can take place. But as I said, late first NIPs are very rare and both need to check all the details I have mentioned before they decline any out of court offers of a course or Fixed Penalty.    For information, courses are normally offered for speeds up to (Limit +10% + 9mph). Only one course of any type can be taken in three years (with the date of the offences being used to calculate that period) and courses are not offered in Scotland. However, if a driver is not offered a course for any reason when he would normally qualify (including late NIPs) he has no right of appeal to have one offered. If the matter goes to court the court has no power to order a course.
    • My grievance against my manager is on Wednesday at 12.00 noon. A union officer is representing me. The representative for my manager is a product manager. I was told today that she is the Daughter or a Step-Daughter of the manager. Is this a conflict of interest? Am I correct in saying that, because the manager is the subject, the hearing has to be carried out by a person higher than the manager such as a director? if so, the product manager is not entitled to carry out the hearing. I'm pretty certain that I read this in law books. My Brother is a licensed union chairman but has since left his previous employment.  He is certain that I am correct . Any help would be gratefully appreciated.   diecastdave
    • Ok cool many thanks!  Much appreciated...I will check everything out now and answer all those questions!
    • Sorry,  its regular outgoings of payments. It’s income related they’re on, not contribution based.  Mum and applicant were totally unaware of the rules in regards to deprivation of capital.   On income related ESA but claim housing benefit and council tax support.   He hasn’t came into a huge chunk of money. It’s been spent over a duration of four years. appointee’s livid, and worried that he’ll be homeless.  
  • Our picks

_Ray_

Excel Windscreen PCN claimform - Media City Manchester

Recommended Posts

Could you give us the information requested in the forum sticky please? That will help us to advise you.

 

HB

 


Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the wording of the NTK has to use certain key phrases to be POFA compliant, miss out any of these and either no liability at all is created or no keeper liability depending on what they get wrong.

For example, failt o identify the land or stae they are the creditor then no-one owes them money

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Name of the Claimant ? - Excel Parking Services Ltd

claimants Solicitors:  - No mention of any lawyers name/s. The court document is signed by Simon Renshaw-Smith (Claimant) so maybe he is representing himself nowadays :-)

 

Date of issue - 02.09.19

 

What is the claim for -

 

1.The claim is for breach of contract for breaching the terms and conditions set on private land.

 

2.The Defendant's vehicle, XXXX XXX, was identified in the MediaCityUK Surface Car Park on 18/04/2019 in breach of the advertised terms and conditions; namely parked after the expiry of the time purchased.

 

3.At all material times the Defendant was the registered keeper and/or driver.

 

4.The terms and conditions upon entering private land were clearly displayed at the entrance and in prominent locations.

The sign was an offer and the act of entering private land was the acceptance of the offer hereby entering into a contract by conduct.

 

5.The signs specifically detail the terms and conditions and the consequences of failure to comply, namely a parking charge notice will be issued, and the Defendant has failed to settle the outstanding liability.

 

6.The claimant seeks recovery of the parking charge notice, contractual costs and interest.

 

What is the value of the claim? - £185.00

 

Has the claim been issued by the Private parking Company or was the PCN assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim? - Issued by the PPC

 

Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? - N/A

 

ADDITIONAL INFO...

 

1. There is no mention of POFA on the original PCN but I'm not sure if it needs to mention POFA in order to use it to establish keeper liability. They did add £60 to the original total which I believe is not allowed under POFA.

 

2. I was NOT the driver of the vehicle, I don't drive due to a medical condition.

 

3. I've scoured the Salford Council planning portal and can find no mention of any planning permission for signage at the site.

 

4. In an earlier post in this thread, EricsBrother outlined why the signage is wrong although I can't claim to fully understand what the issues are.

 

 

Ray

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

pop up on the MCOL website detailed on the claimform.
.
 register as an individual
 note the long gateway number given
 then log in
.
 select respond to a claim and select the start AOS box.
.
 then using the details required from the claimform
.
 defend all
 leave jurisdiction unticked.
 click thru to the end
 confirm and exit MCOL.
.
 get a CPR 31:14 request running to the solicitors [if one is not listed send to the claimant]

no need to sign anything
.
you DO NOT await the return of paperwork.
you MUST file a defence regardless by day 33 from the date on the claimform [1 in the count]

 

 

 

..


PLEASE DONT HIT QUOTE IF THE LAST POST IS THE ONE YOU ARE REPLYING TOO.

MAKES A THREAD TWICE AS LONG TO SCROLL THROUGH!

please do not post jpg images directly to a topic..USE PDF ....READ UPLOAD.

 

WE CAN'T GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU SEND ME A LINK TO YOUR THREAD - I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER HELP THERE

Single Premium PPI Q&A Read Here

Reclaim mis-sold PPI Read Here

Reclaim Bank Account, Loan & Credit Card Charges Read Here

The CAG Interest Tutorial Read Here

spreadsheets 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

to address your points

 

1 if they dont follow the protocols of the POFA they cant create a keeper liability. This is absolute, they cant invent it afterwards.

 

2. they have deliberately conflated and confused the 2 entities in the hope that as they have written to you as the keeper ( and they dont know who the driver is or they would have written to that person without accessing your keeper details) that it is accepted that you were the driver because most of the time that would be true.

 

It is for them to prove who they have a contract with or create that keeper liability.

 

You will be denying being the driver (dont say why or you may get caught out under case law going back to whan all cars had chauffeurs and thus the driver was your "servant") and point out they havent shown a cause for action against you as you are not liable in that capacity.

 

3 you wil state that you dont believe they have PP so a criminal offence and the driver cant enter into a criminal compact so no contract to breach.

 

4 dont fret over that, stating that the signage does not create a contract so there can be no breach of the same will suffice at this stage.

 

The detail of their rubbish wording will be for your witness statement if they still fancy losing oney when they see you arent wetting yourself and are going to take them on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for all the help and information so far...

 

I have filed my AoS via the moneyclaim website, and have drafted my CPR 31.14 request letter using the template dx100uk pointed me to - will post it this afternoon. I assume it will need signing for?

 

When it comes to filing my defence, is it worth filing a counter-claim at the same time or is that too much hassle? I would like to counter in order to encourage them to drop their claim beforehand rather than them just not turning up on the day and therefore wasting everybody's time. If it's not advised though, I will listen to them that know best :-)

 

Ray

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

no you don't counterclaim

you'll not find that advised anywhere here if you read like threads

 


PLEASE DONT HIT QUOTE IF THE LAST POST IS THE ONE YOU ARE REPLYING TOO.

MAKES A THREAD TWICE AS LONG TO SCROLL THROUGH!

please do not post jpg images directly to a topic..USE PDF ....READ UPLOAD.

 

WE CAN'T GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU SEND ME A LINK TO YOUR THREAD - I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER HELP THERE

Single Premium PPI Q&A Read Here

Reclaim mis-sold PPI Read Here

Reclaim Bank Account, Loan & Credit Card Charges Read Here

The CAG Interest Tutorial Read Here

spreadsheets 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK that's fine...

 

Is it OK to post the defence on here once I've prepared it (hopefully next week) for you all to look through or is that not recommended?

 

Ray

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What does everyone else do?


PLEASE DONT HIT QUOTE IF THE LAST POST IS THE ONE YOU ARE REPLYING TOO.

MAKES A THREAD TWICE AS LONG TO SCROLL THROUGH!

please do not post jpg images directly to a topic..USE PDF ....READ UPLOAD.

 

WE CAN'T GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU SEND ME A LINK TO YOUR THREAD - I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER HELP THERE

Single Premium PPI Q&A Read Here

Reclaim mis-sold PPI Read Here

Reclaim Bank Account, Loan & Credit Card Charges Read Here

The CAG Interest Tutorial Read Here

spreadsheets 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Been away since my last post so now I'm back it's time to get this sorted...

 

I've been given a template defence courtesy of Andyorch and have a couple of questions about it if that's OK? This is what I have...

 

 

 

So my questions are...

 

1. Can they ONLY establish Keeper Liability IF they mention POFA on the original Notice to Keeper? If so, what do I put in section 3 of the defence? If not, what do I put in section 3 of the defence? :-)

 

2. In section 5 of the defence (signage), any suggestions as to wording for why a charge is not incorporated into the contract? I know Ericsbrother said not to get hung up on the signage issue at this stage, but it seems to me this should be included. I can delete that bit if that's the consensus here.

 

As always, apologies if some of these points are a bit newbish, this is not stuff I'm familiar with but eager to take them on if that's what they decide.

 

Cheers 

Edited by BankFodder
Removing template

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would be grateful if you wouldn't post our library templates up on the open forum. The advice and support here is completely free but we try to encourage people to register with us. We are happy for anybody to read almost every part of the forum but the library is reserved for people who are prepared to register.

Thanks


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry about that, wasn't aware of the situation. I asked further up the thread if it is OK to paste my intended defence and was told "What does everyone else do?" which I took to mean I should.

 

Maybe I misunderstood...

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that it was expected that you would post up your defence as you would send it to the court, ie with dates, etc in your words. Instead you have merely quoted the library template. If you had read other threads you would understand this. It is no good merely quoting, you must understand the reasoning behind recommendations so that you can fight fire with fire.


My time as a Police Officer and subsequently time working within the Motor Trade gives me certain insights into the problems that consumers may encounter.

I have no legal qualifications.

If you have found my post helpful, please enhance my reputation by clicking on the Heart. Thank you

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

look in any pcn claimform thread in this forum.

use the std 2 -5 line bare defence in most pcn claimform threads adapted to your circumstances.

 

dx

 


PLEASE DONT HIT QUOTE IF THE LAST POST IS THE ONE YOU ARE REPLYING TOO.

MAKES A THREAD TWICE AS LONG TO SCROLL THROUGH!

please do not post jpg images directly to a topic..USE PDF ....READ UPLOAD.

 

WE CAN'T GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU SEND ME A LINK TO YOUR THREAD - I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER HELP THERE

Single Premium PPI Q&A Read Here

Reclaim mis-sold PPI Read Here

Reclaim Bank Account, Loan & Credit Card Charges Read Here

The CAG Interest Tutorial Read Here

spreadsheets 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I know I keep making errors with this but can I ask one question - Does the original NTK need to mention the phrase POFA?

 

If the answer is NO, then I realise this might seem like a pointless question, but I've read and reread schedule 4 of POFA and I can't see that any of the mandatory information is missing from the NTK. If it does need to mention POFA however (the NTK doesn't mention it btw), it gives me something to cling to...

Edited by _Ray_

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Still trying to identify where Excel's NTK might be non-compliant and hopefully this might be it...

 

In POFA Schedule 4 paragraph 4 subsection (5) it says:

 

The maximum sum which may be recovered from the keeper by virtue of the right conferred by this paragraph is the amount specified in the notice to keeper under paragraph 8(2)(c) or (d) or, as the case may be, 9(2)(d) (less any payments towards the unpaid parking charges which are received after the time so specified). 

 

Excel increased the charge from £100 to £160 but on the NTK it says that this extra amount is for Debt Collection. Can they legitimately add an additional £60 to the invoice by saying it's for debt collection?

 

Thanks

 

 

Edited by _Ray_

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

not seriously an issue that needs to be directly addressed in your defence

its covered by one of the many generic phrases we use. [EB post 31 here]

 

pop your defence up and get it fine tuned.

 

its due to be filed by 4pm tomorrow.

 

 


PLEASE DONT HIT QUOTE IF THE LAST POST IS THE ONE YOU ARE REPLYING TOO.

MAKES A THREAD TWICE AS LONG TO SCROLL THROUGH!

please do not post jpg images directly to a topic..USE PDF ....READ UPLOAD.

 

WE CAN'T GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU SEND ME A LINK TO YOUR THREAD - I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER HELP THERE

Single Premium PPI Q&A Read Here

Reclaim mis-sold PPI Read Here

Reclaim Bank Account, Loan & Credit Card Charges Read Here

The CAG Interest Tutorial Read Here

spreadsheets 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're right, I have a tendency to over think things and was trying to find a POFA infraction to add to the defence given that it's POFA they are using to try to create liability. Here's where I'm at so far...

 

 

1. It is admitted that Defendant is the recorded keeper of motor vehicle XXXX XXX.


2. It is denied that the Defendant parked in MediaCityUK Surface car park at the times mentioned in the Particulars. The Claimant is put to strict proof of the same.


3. I submit that at the time of the alleged contravention, Excel Parking Services Limited did not have planning permission from Salford City Council, under the Town and Country Planning Act 2007, for their signage at the MediaCityUK Surface car park which is a criminal offence and that the driver can't enter into a criminal contract therefore no contract to breach.


4. It is denied that the Claimant entered into a contract with the Defendant. As held by the Upper Tax Tribunal in Vehicle Control Services Limited v HMRC [2012] UKUT 129 (TCC), any contract requires offer and acceptance. The Claimant was simply contracted by the landowner to provide car-park management services and is not capable of entering into a contract with the Defendant on its own account, as the carpark is owned by, and the terms of entry set by, the landowner. Accordingly, it is denied that the Claimant has authority to bring this claim. The proper Claimant is the landowner.


5. The Particulars of Claim is denied in its entirety. It is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I went ahead and submitted the defence as time was running short. As I said above I was trying to find a POFA violation seeing as this is the stick they are trying to beat me with, and I think I've found one but only AFTER submitting the defence - ooops!

 

The driver informed me today that a windscreen ticket was placed on the car windscreen, but this is the first time I'm hearing about it.

 

Anyway, the event happened 18/04/19 and the NTK was issued 24/04/19 - 6 days later! Schedule 4 says it should be issued "28 days following the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice to driver was given" which makes it non-compliant - yay.

 

However, as I didn't mention this in my defence as I only found out after it was submitted, will I still be able to use it as part of my defence if it goes to court?

 

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

pop up the NTK again to PDF

this time not obsuring the pictures.

 

dx

 


PLEASE DONT HIT QUOTE IF THE LAST POST IS THE ONE YOU ARE REPLYING TOO.

MAKES A THREAD TWICE AS LONG TO SCROLL THROUGH!

please do not post jpg images directly to a topic..USE PDF ....READ UPLOAD.

 

WE CAN'T GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU SEND ME A LINK TO YOUR THREAD - I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER HELP THERE

Single Premium PPI Q&A Read Here

Reclaim mis-sold PPI Read Here

Reclaim Bank Account, Loan & Credit Card Charges Read Here

The CAG Interest Tutorial Read Here

spreadsheets 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's the NTK without obscuring the images. If you were trying to see if a ticket was attached to the windscreen you can't tell from the images on the NTK but you can from some of the other images they've posted online so I've attached them as well. 

 

You can see from the first image there is nothing, then 1 minute and 1 second later there's a ticket on the windscreen...

 

 

 

ntk+pix.pdf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yep so shouldn't have been served within 29 days..

 

oh well that can be added to your WS


PLEASE DONT HIT QUOTE IF THE LAST POST IS THE ONE YOU ARE REPLYING TOO.

MAKES A THREAD TWICE AS LONG TO SCROLL THROUGH!

please do not post jpg images directly to a topic..USE PDF ....READ UPLOAD.

 

WE CAN'T GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU SEND ME A LINK TO YOUR THREAD - I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER HELP THERE

Single Premium PPI Q&A Read Here

Reclaim mis-sold PPI Read Here

Reclaim Bank Account, Loan & Credit Card Charges Read Here

The CAG Interest Tutorial Read Here

spreadsheets 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the help, I'll post back if/when I hear anything else from them...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nope, that's the red Excel/VCS "This is not a parking charge" notice by the looks of it.

 

It's been done to death and is clearly being interpreted wrong by the courts/DVLA IMHO. It is a notice and it is left for the driver, but is not classed as a NTD for the purposes of POFA, so we're back to ANPR rules and timescales. Mad as a box of frogs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Only the IAS use this wheeze as Will and John have applied the lack of clarity in the drafting of the legislation so to knock it out you will need to get a copy of Hansard for a transcript of what was said when the matter was debated in the house of Commons. that is the interpretation that is correct as it is the will of parliament.

See Firearms Act amendment Act 1997 and subsequent arguments about black powder pistols.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    No registered users viewing this page.


  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...