MotoNovo Finance - Jaguar on HPi with mileage discrepancy

[Chuffnut]

16 hours ago, Manxman in exile said:

I am reluctant to get involved further with this, but here goes:

 

Q: What does the OP want?

A:  To sell his car losing only whatever value he's had out of it since "buying" it.

Problem:  There appears to be a HPI mileage discrepancy marker against it, which greatly reduces its value and saleability.

 

In the OP's shoes, the first thing I would do after being made aware of the recorded MOT mileages is to compare them against the car's service history mileages.  This will confirm either that there is a real discrepancy or that there was an input error when recording the mileage for the 2015 MOT.  (Or get Jag to check their central service records or get mileage on the ECU checked).

 

If the service history indicates that the mileage recorded for the 2015 MOT was a typo, I would use this evidence to get the HPI flag cleared myself.  It may be the dealer's or finance company's responsibility to do so, but I wouldn't trust them if I thought I could do it myself.  I would at least be asking what I can do to clear the marker.

 

Whether the OP can reject the car, or whether they've bought it or hired it, or whether they can VT it, is a moot point until it's established that there really is a mileage discrepancy and the car was not as described.

 

I'm not convinced that an honest typo (if that's what it was) on a 2015 MOT amounts to a defect entitling the OP to reject the car.

 

BF might be of the opinion that I'm trolling here, but he or she could not be further from the truth.  I'm trying to put forward an impartial point of view which I think could be of benefit to the OP while considering their position.  The only "evidence" of trolling that I've seen here was BF's own comment about taking a "trade-facing" point of view which I took, perhaps mistakenly, to be aimed at me.  I have no connections with the motor trade - I am simply trying to present an impartial POV.

 

I'll leave others to discuss the "finer" points of this problem now.

 

EDIT:  On a final note, nor am I convinced that the HPI report means that the car was not as described when "bought", "hired" or whatever, IF that HPI report is itself wrong because of a typo dating back to 2015.

 

 

 

 

 

 

As bolded above, it really isn't a moot point. It's THE point. The car was described as HPI clear. I'm assuming in the advert somewhere, on the website, wherever. The description was "HPI clear"

 

The car isn't HPI clear. It is not as described. I don't know how you could argue or to argue otherwise.

 

What you're trying to say, I believe, is that there may actually not be a problem with the car's mileage, it's a clerical error, not a clocked car. OK, that may well be true. But until the discrepancy is removed off the HPI report, it is, and will remain so, not HPI clear. The simplest thing is just for the dealer to do the legwork, get the record straight and that's it, job done. 

[Peterbard]

On 24/04/2019 at 18:22, Chuffnut said:

 

 

Are you going to answer my very simple question or not? Can you sell a car that has outstanding HP finance on it, yes or no? If you think no, you're wrong. If you think yes, why are you bleating on about the OP not "buying it" or whatever, it's irrelevant.

 

The fact is, you CAN sell a car that has outstanding HP on it. 

1

WEll you can, if you want to commit a criminal offence. With the creditor's agreement perhaps, but then all you proceeds would go to paying off the contract, and any shortfall of the FULL agreement price would also need settling, not a wise move. You would not be selling your car.

 

Just google can i sell my HP car.

[Peterbard]

16 hours ago, yogibear1 said:

Explain to a prospective buyer, the car has outstanding finance and it's showing a mileage discrepancy

 

 

This would include the third party in the conversion.

[Chuffnut]

13 minutes ago, Dodgeball said:

WEll you can, if you want to commit a criminal offence. With the creditor's agreement perhaps, but then all you proceeds would go to paying off the contract, and any shortfall of the FULL agreement price would also need settling, not a wise move. You would not be selling your car.

 

Just google can i sell my HP car.

 

Right.

 

So your original point is neither here nor there then, as I pointed out, with the permission of the finance company, you can get a settlement quote,  sell the car, pay off the balance with the proceeds, plus any shortfall and that's the end of it. I'm not sure why you wanted to go to lengths to point out the OP can't sell his car because of the HP, he has enough aggro it seems as it is. If he can find a buyer, they settle the finance direct, so they know its paid off (shortfall paid by the OP) it's a simple thing to do.

 

Perhaps you misunderstood my initial post, I am not advocating selling a car without the finance house's permission but I speak from personal and professional experience, I have paid off many a HP agreement and it hasn't ever been an issue.

[Peterbard]

11 minutes ago, Dodgeball said:

WEll you can, if you want to commit a criminal offence. With the creditor's agreement perhaps, but then all you proceeds would go to paying off the contract, and any shortfall of the FULL agreement price would also need settling, not a wise move. You would not be selling your car.

 

Just google can i sell my HP car.

Can I sell a car with outstanding finance? - Confused.com

https://www.confused.com/.../sell-car-with-outstanding-finance

Here’s what you need to know before you list your car for sale. Changed your mind on a car finance deal or you find yourself struggling financially? Read on: Can I sell a car with outstanding hire purchase (HP) finance? No you can’t, as the lender is the legal owner of the car until the finance

 

Hire purchase

Hire purchase (HP) is a type of borrowing. It is different from other types of borrowing because you don’t own the goods until you have paid in full. Under an HP agreement, you hire the goods and then pay an agreed amount by instalments. While you are still making payments, you aren’t allowed to sell or dispose of the goods without the lender’s permission. If you do, you’ll be committing a criminal offence.

 

 

[Peterbard]

2 minutes ago, Chuffnut said:

 

Right.

 

So your original point is neither here nor there then, as I pointed out, with the permission of the finance company, you can get a settlement quote,  sell the car, pay off the balance with the proceeds, plus any shortfall and that's the end of it. I'm not sure why you wanted to go to lengths to point out the OP can't sell his car because of the HP, he has enough aggro it seems as it is. If he can find a buyer, they settle the finance direct, so they know its paid off (shortfall paid by the OP) it's a simple thing to do.

 

Perhaps you misunderstood my initial post, I am not advocating selling a car without the finance house's permission but I speak from personal and professional experience, I have paid off many a HP agreement and it hasn't ever been an issue.

2

Well no, you would have to pay off the balance first, then the car would become yours. Then, of course, you would be selling your own goods. Many advisers recommend that you take out a short term loan, but as I said it is really not needed.

 

We have to give correct information don't we? I had a thread on a forum eslewhere, we did literally hundreds of VTs for people. YOu seem to be espousing the wisdom of the crown an cushion, i would put down your club and read.

[Peterbard]

On 24/04/2019 at 18:36, Chuffnut said:

 

You call the finance company, ask for a settlement quote. They will give you a figure you need to pay to settle the outstanding finance, which will expire on a certain date, usually just before your next payment is due.The settlement figure will be the full and final amount to pay, inclusive of interest at that point in time. If you make another payment, you have to ring again, ask for a settlement figure and they will re-calculate.

 

It's very straightforward, I have done it a number of times, both personally and in my line of work.

 

 

Sorry I seem to have missed this.

 

Absolutely correct you can ring the finance company and they will give you a settlement figure including any rebate due under section 95 of the act. However, this may differ greatly from terminating under a VT(section 99) because that method will limit your exposure to 50% of the contract price.

 

If you want to give me your figures I can calculate the repayment figures dude under both methods.

 

There is also the point that the company will not terminate under an agreed arrangement without payment first if you don't pay they will default the account. Under a VT you do not have to pay before termination, although they will say otherwise.

[Peterbard]

I feel I have given all the information needed on this thread, I do not envy your task of sorting the wheat from the chaff, but that's one of the joys of an open forum. Unsubbing please pm if you want me to comment further, and good luck.

 

Ta.

[Chuffnut]

Haha, "I don't want to talk to you anymore, you seem to be making too much sense and I can't impose my vast knowledge of useless things on to you"

 

Another sleepless night...

[Chuffnut]

Just to clarify, I wasn't ever talking about VT, neither was the OP, you initiated the VT discussion but thanks for the useless info to the thread. You have shown you clearly know about VT's, it must come in useful, somewhere.

 

Should anyone stumble across this thread, looking for information on selling cars with HP on, just ring your finance company, explain the situation, they will give you permission to either pay off the car yourself with the proceeds of the sale or, more likely, someone else buying the car from you, will pay it off. You don't have to wait until you own the car, or take a short term loan out. Put it up for sale, get the finance paid off, done. As long as the finance is paid off, the finance company will be satiated as will the buyer of your vehicle. 

 

Obviously you can't sell the car, say nothing to the finance house, don't pay the finance off and expect nothing bad will happen. I never said that, common sense applies.

Edited April 26, 2019 by Chuffnut

[Peterbard]

On 24/04/2019 at 18:22, Chuffnut said:

 

 

Are you going to answer my very simple question or not? Can you sell a car that has outstanding HP finance on it, yes or no? If you think no, you're wrong. If you think yes, why are you bleating on about the OP not "buying it" or whatever, it's irrelevant.

 

The fact is, you CAN sell a car that has outstanding HP on it. 

1

https://www.nationaldebtline.org/EW/factsheets/Pages/hire-purchase-debt/hire-purchase-and-conditional-sale.aspx

Sorry, you seem to have a troll, just ignore he will go away eventually, just read the NDL sheet, you will find it confirms all I say.

[Chuffnut]

You still here, gandalph?

[johnjordan]

I am no expert on these matters but what I can't understand is why you don't just reject the car as not being as described and find another one. The problem of the mileage discrepancy is not your problem and you shouldn't be trying to sort it out.

 

There are hundreds of Jaguars on the market and one or more will be just as nice as the one you have now.

[yogibear1]

16 hours ago, johnjordan said:

I am no expert on these matters but what I can't understand is why you don't just reject the car as not being as described and find another one. The problem of the mileage discrepancy is not your problem and you shouldn't be trying to sort it out.

 

There are hundreds of Jaguars on the market and one or more will be just as nice as the one you have now.

Hi that's what i have done, finance company are now investigating.

[yogibear1]

Update..

I had a call on Thursday from the finance company asking for a receipt from the sale, photo of the car's mileage and hpi fail report. I sent these via email.

 

They also said the dealer was aware of the mileage discrepancy.

Then a Letter from finance company yesterday stating "sorry we have taken 4 weeks to reply but we are investigating and we will aim to get back to you within another 4 weeks". 

This seems a bit long of a wait.

I have started the complaint to the financial ombudsman.

Edited April 28, 2019 by yogibear1
add

[Chuffnut]

I'm sure others will be along to advise again soon but what are you waiting for? Have you followed BF's advice and send a LBA? Are you prepared to take this mob to court? You're being fobbed off and f*cked around in my eyes. 

 

The financial ombusdman is worthless in this situation in my opinion. You have been sold something that is mis-described. Take them to court and get your money back. 

[Peterbard]

Yes of course the answer is simple, VT the car then pursue the HP company for damages in the county court. Simple

 

The OP will probably need walking through the VT procedure, other than that no problem.

 

I am betting that when they know you are VTing they will suddenly be very helpful. Done dozens like this unfortunately they are elsewhere, I thought Grumpy? was the VT expert on here? 

 

V knowledgable on these matters..

[Peterbard]

Whatever you don't let them you if the HP co. default you, it's game over.

Edited April 28, 2019 by Dodgeball

[Peterbard]

^He above should read, "DONT let them default you." Can't edit

[yogibear1]

i would never let them default me.

I have sent the finance company an email again stating I am not prepared to wait another 4 weeks and reiterated I am rejecting the car.

Edited April 28, 2019 by yogibear1

[dx100uk]

Section 99 of the Consumer Credit Act gives the debtor the right to terminate a hire purchase agreement, 
simply by giving written notice of termination. 
.
The right to terminate applies at any time before the final payment becomes due, unless the creditor has already terminated. 
.
contrary to the line taken by many finance companies, 
.
the debtor need not have paid half the total amount payable, 
.
and nor do they have to pay any arrears, 
.
before exercising the right to terminate.
 .
 Sections 99 and 100 set out the debtor's liability on voluntary termination. The sections are complex, 
.
but their main effect can be summarised in brief as follows. 
.
.If the sum of payments made and arrears before termination exceeds 50% of the total price, 
than the debtor is only liable to pay the arrears. 
.
Otherwise, the debtor is liable to pay half the total price, less any payments already made.
 . 
so the debtor can terminate at any time if he has reached the 50 % mark
 .
 the debtor can terminate at any time before the 50 % mark but would be liable for payments still to reach the 50 % mark,
 .  
does not matter if the account is in arrears at the time or request to do a voluntary termination.
.
you need to specifically nail them down that this is a VT and NOT a VS Voluntary surrender].

dont get caught out!!

take extensive photos of the car inside and out 
and underneath and in the engine compartment ALWAYS.

if they try and charge a repo fee or collection fee they cannot:

173 Contracting-out forbidden.

 (1)A term contained in a regulated agreement or linked transaction, or in any other agreement relating to an actual or prospective regulated agreement or linked transaction, is void if, and to the extent that, it is inconsistent with a provision for the protection of the debtor or hirer or his relative or any surety contained in this Act or in any regulation made under this Act.

 This term is covered by the above section of the CCA 1974 in that it breaches this:

 99 Right to terminate hire-purchase etc. agreements.

 (1)At any time before the final payment by the debtor under a regulated hire-purchase or regulated conditional sale agreement falls due, the debtor shall be entitled to terminate the agreement by giving notice to any person entitled or authorised to receive the sums payable under the agreement

 In other words nothing can stop you voluntarily terminating.

 The only charges you must pay are the ones contained in the legislation and itemised in section 101, the charge mentioned is levied after the agrement is terminated and is void in any case. All it means is that no one will collect the terminated car(their car), well that is ther problem it is no longer yours , your attachment to the car has been terminated.
.
although dependant on the way your agreement is written, they can charge excess mileage
.
 this has been accepted at county courticon level, but afaik has not been tested in a higher court
..
..............example letter..ADAPT TO SUIT.............
.
You must vt under s99/100 cca1974. do not sign any of their forms, or agree to pay anything. 
.
The car has just to be in reasonable condition for its age. 

If you have paid in excess of 50%, 
with no arrears there will be nothing to pay.
.
Send them the following letter, 
they MUST action your request, 
you should endeavour to be present at the vehicle inspection---
.
VOLUNTARY TERMINATION OF AGREEMENT UNDER S99/100 CCA 1974
.
 Account No: (xxxxxxx)
.

 Dear Sir,
 I am writing to notify you that I am exercising my right to terminate the above Agreement 
under Section 99 of the consumer credit act1974. 
.
You will understand that the aforementioned section permits the debtor to terminate the agreement 
at any time before the last payment is due. 
.
There is no restriction regarding the exercising this statutory right, 
particularly none in respect of any perceived arrears or monies due on termination
.
I understand that I shall be liable to you for the amount calculated under the formula in Section 100 
of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. 
.
**As I have/have not paid more than the amount calculated under the formula in Section 100 the amount due is £XXXX/zero.
.
 The above agreement will be terminated 14 days from the date of this notice.
.
 Please send me details of how the vehicle can be returned to you.
.
 You will be aware that statute prevents you from levying a charge for the recovery of this vehicle; 
guidelines also state that if you require me to deliver this vehicle 
it must be no more than a short (reasonable distance) from my registered address.
. 
 Please confirm receipt of this request in writing within 7 days of receipt.
.
-Yours etc...
..

 

[Peterbard]

On 26/04/2019 at 12:06, Chuffnut said:

You still here, gandalph?

Gandalph ?

[Peterbard]

DX Did I write this? I wrote something very similar back in 2012.

 

Everyone knows the score now, just a simple letter saying you want to exercise your rights under section 99 of the consumer credit act, and await instructions about how to return the car. They need two weeks notice, say you have another car, and you need it off your drive. You can threaten them with storage charges, but that is for a later date if they do not comply. Recorded of course

[yogibear1]

If this was an option i would be liable for 50% of the complete loan inc the whole terms interest?. For argument's sake, say i would owe £8k. if the car goes back and i no longer have the car do i still owe £8k?

 

[dx100uk]

read what I posted....

its 50% [should be on the reverse of the agreement]