MotoNovo Finance - Jaguar on HPi with mileage discrepancy

[Peterbard]

Sorry if this has been mentioned.

Has the OP considered a VT(voluntary termination)? That's 99-100 of the CCA.

 

If the creditor was willing to accommodate, or even if he isn't, it is a statutory right, it would depend on the figures of course, but the owner does not have to have paid one half of the agreement, and if they will agree on credit to the contract. He may be able to walk away from the whole mess. Just an idea.

[Peterbard]

3 hours ago, Manxman in exile said:

 

I'm not entirely sure what your understanding is so firmly based on and I do not understand how you can be absolutely sure that your view is correct and that there is a defect in the vehicle.

 

Let's say the OP bought the Jag with 80,000 on the clock and it was advertised as such. 

If in fact it had covered 106,000 then I would agree with you that there is a problem with this sale. 

Now it actually appears that some discrepancy has been uncovered in the mileage recorded in 2015 which appears to indicate the car was clocked by 26,000 miles between MOTs. 

 

The point I'm trying to make (and to be honest I'm surprised that you are not completely sure what it is) is that if the discrepancy in 2015 is due to a typo or some other clerical error, and the 80,000 miles (or whatever it is) is in fact correct, then there can be no defect because the OP has bought exactly the car that was advertised and that he thought he was buying. 

 

I don't see how a clerical error in 2015 can possibly amount to a defect now that entitles the OP to reject the car.  And the OP could not have been misled by this error because they never checked it themselves before purchase.

 

I agree that the OP needs to get this bottomed out with HPI

- that is, has it actually been clocked or is it simply a clerical error in 2014? 

 

As has already been posted, the OP should be able to sort this out definitively by checking the service interval mileages on the service history or by asking Jaguar to confirm it.

 

Also, I'd be grateful if you could explain the reference to "...a trade-facing view."?

 

 

 

 

2

I know BF is too nice to say it, but, I have rarely come across such nonsense.

 

The OP can only complain to the HP company and they have the option to pursue the dealer if they wish.

 

In an HP contract, the goods are purchased by the HP company and given to the customer under A bailment. The buyer/hirer has no property in the goods, the title still rests with the Finance Company until the agreement is paid in full.

 

Why should a bailee raise a complaint against a person which , contractually he has nothing to do with.

 

This is what the CAB was trying to tell the OP in post one.

 

 

[Chuffnut]

On 21/04/2019 at 17:08, Manxman in exile said:

 

Yes - this needs to be resolved, but I think you need to try to be a little more certain about what has happened. 

 

First(?) MOT was in 2014 and for the 2015 MOT the car had covered ~ 26,000 less than had been recorded the previous year. 

 

Most relatively new cars have service intervals which indicate a service around MOT time (not sure about Jaguar). 

 

What does the service history for your Jag reveal about mileage covered in 2014/15? 

Does it reflect the mileage recorded for the two MOTs? 

 

Also have you tried contacting Jaguar to see what they say about the mileage from service records / ecu output?

When you say it was sold as clear, what did the finance company actually tell you?

I think the point that you are overlooking is that irrespective of whether it's a clerical error or a genuine case of clocking, the car has been sold as HPI clear and it is not. The car is not as described and the contract has been broken.

 

The simplest thing would be for the dealer/finance company to sort out the error (which in all probability is just that, an error) to correct the mileage discrepancy and the OP can get on with selling the vehicle.

[BankFodder]

8 hours ago, Chuffnut said:

I think the point that you are overlooking is that irrespective of whether it's a clerical error or a genuine case of clocking, the car has been sold as HPI clear and it is not. The car is not as described and the contract has been broken.

 

The simplest thing would be for the dealer/finance company to sort out the error (which in all probability is just that, an error) to correct the mileage discrepancy and the OP can get on with selling the vehicle.

Correct

[yogibear1]

11 hours ago, Chuffnut said:

I think the point that you are overlooking is that irrespective of whether it's a clerical error or a genuine case of clocking, the car has been sold as HPI clear and it is not. The car is not as described and the contract has been broken.

 

The simplest thing would be for the dealer/finance company to sort out the error (which in all probability is just that, an error) to correct the mileage discrepancy and the OP can get on with selling the vehicle.

1

Thank you,  the point I have been trying to get across 

Edited April 23, 2019 by yogibear1
edit

[Peterbard]

Is this still under an HP contract? In post one, the OP said that he "bought it a couple of months ago". if he means under HP, he is in no position to sell, because it does not belong to him.

 

If it is under an HP agreement there are remedies within the act, which are there specifically to help people in this position, or have I missed something?

 

 

[Chuffnut]

3 minutes ago, Dodgeball said:

Is this still under an HP contract? In post one, the OP said that he "bought it a couple of months ago". if he means under HP, he is in no position to sell, because it does not belong to him.

 

If it is under an HP agreement there are remedies within the act, which are there specifically to help people in this position, or have I missed something?

 

 

I think you have missed the fact that with permission of the finance company, you can sell the car.

[Peterbard]

10 minutes ago, Chuffnut said:

I think you have missed the fact that with permission of the finance company, you can sell the car.

Its no use getting shirty with me.

 

You do not have "good title". You apparently are only are a few months into the agrement.

That means you must still owe a considerable amount on the contract.

 

You now say,  the company are forgoing both that and possession of the car, so you can sell, and have the money?, never happen.

 

That is unless you were selling the car on there behalf so the agreement can be paid with the proceeds.

 

They are just transferring a loss to you.

 

 

[Peterbard]

1 hour ago, Chuffnut said:

I think you have missed the fact that with permission of the finance company, you can sell the car.

 

 

The problem here is that people keep saying the OP bought the vehicle. He did not he acquired it on HP, to have bought it there would have had to be a transfer of title, such a thing does not happen under an HP agreement until the very last payment. If its not made then not at all.

[yogibear1]

The dealer was going to settle the finance then sell the car, He wont as it's got a mileage discrepancy on Hpi !.

Option 2 was me getting a bank loan, settle finance then sell the car. BUT before I can do this I need the cloud of the discrepancy sorted hence this ruddy long post.

[Chuffnut]

2 hours ago, Dodgeball said:

 

 

The problem here is that people keep saying the OP bought the vehicle. He did not he acquired it on HP, to have bought it there would have had to be a transfer of title, such a thing does not happen under an HP agreement until the very last payment. If its not made then not at all.

Are you saying that you cannot sell a car that has outstanding HP on it?

 

I can assure you I wasn't intending to be shirty.

[yogibear1]

way off topic now. as BF said post closed until i get a resolution.

[Peterbard]

 

I disagree, it is one of the few posts on here which is on topic. I know people dont like being told they are barking up the wrong tree, but there you are.

 

Your remedy is to return the car to the HP company and settle under section 99 of the consumer credit act. This limits your liability to 50% of the contract price. This feature was introduced into the act for people exactly in your position.

 

If you look at the definitions of consumer, the trader in 2015 you will see it does not apply.

 

If you need help with this let me know, otherwise, I will leave you to it.

[yogibear1]

i understand you need to have paid off 50% of the loan including interest to enter into voluntary termination which i assume is what you are mentioning here?

[dx100uk]

nope

you can VT at any time

and they cant charge you anything more either [than the sum to the 50% mark minus auction price of vehicle]

[yogibear1]

I appreciate your patience, I'm trying to understand how this works...

I assume I would have to pay the full term interest? £4k

I paid a £4k deposit where would this come into the equation.

Car cost £18000 4k deposit paid, interest over the term is £4k trade value is £16000 for the car

[Peterbard]

1 hour ago, yogibear1 said:

oI appreciate your patience, I'm trying to understand how this works...

I assume I would have to pay the full term interest? £4k

I paid a £4k deposit where would this come into the equation.

Car cost £18000 4k deposit paid, interest over the term is £4k trade value is £16000 for the car

1

 

Why would you have to pay full term interest? You'r not keeping the car full term. 

 

No, forget about interest, figures are calculated on the amount already paid and the principle still owing. Any amount paid is deducted from the total credit figure on the agreement, this will include your deposit. If you have paid half, you don't owe any more, you just give the car back and walk away. If you have not paid half, you give the car back and pay off the balance in whatever way you can afford.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Dodgeball

[Peterbard]

1 hour ago, yogibear1 said:

I appreciate your patience, I'm trying to understand how this works...

I assume I would have to pay the full term interest? £4k

I paid a £4k deposit where would this come into the equation.

Car cost £18000 4k deposit paid, interest over the term is £4k trade value is £16000 for the car

 

I hasten to add, that this method of termination only applies if the debtor is the first to terminate. If the creditor terminates first on breach, the debtor is liable to pay the full agreement price.

[Peterbard]

I have written many guides on VT, most will have disappeared by now, but the CAB or NDL is quite good in this area, also the procedure should be itemised on your agreement.

 

One final word, creditors, in general, do not like customers terminating in this way, and will lie about what you can or cannot do, always check, as said lots of info out there and also on here.

[Chuffnut]

3 hours ago, Dodgeball said:

I disagree, it is one of the few posts on here which is on topic. I know people dont like being told they are barking up the wrong tree, but there you are.

 

Your remedy is to return the car to the HP company and settle under section 99 of the consumer credit act. This limits your liability to 50% of the contract price. This feature was introduced into the act for people exactly in your position.

 

If you look at the definitions of consumer, the trader in 2015 you will see it does not apply.

 

If you need help with this let me know, otherwise, I will leave you to it.

 

 

Are you going to answer my very simple question or not? Can you sell a car that has outstanding HP finance on it, yes or no? If you think no, you're wrong. If you think yes, why are you bleating on about the OP not "buying it" or whatever, it's irrelevant.

 

The fact is, you CAN sell a car that has outstanding HP on it. 

[Chuffnut]

2 hours ago, yogibear1 said:

I appreciate your patience, I'm trying to understand how this works...

I assume I would have to pay the full term interest? £4k

I paid a £4k deposit where would this come into the equation.

Car cost £18000 4k deposit paid, interest over the term is £4k trade value is £16000 for the car

 

You call the finance company, ask for a settlement quote. They will give you a figure you need to pay to settle the outstanding finance, which will expire on a certain date, usually just before your next payment is due.The settlement figure will be the full and final amount to pay, inclusive of interest at that point in time. If you make another payment, you have to ring again, ask for a settlement figure and they will re-calculate.

 

It's very straightforward, I have done it a number of times, both personally and in my line of work.

 

 

[Manxman in exile]

I am reluctant to get involved further with this, but here goes:

 

Q: What does the OP want?

A:  To sell his car losing only whatever value he's had out of it since "buying" it.

Problem:  There appears to be a HPI mileage discrepancy marker against it, which greatly reduces its value and saleability.

 

In the OP's shoes, the first thing I would do after being made aware of the recorded MOT mileages is to compare them against the car's service history mileages.  This will confirm either that there is a real discrepancy or that there was an input error when recording the mileage for the 2015 MOT.  (Or get Jag to check their central service records or get mileage on the ECU checked).

 

If the service history indicates that the mileage recorded for the 2015 MOT was a typo, I would use this evidence to get the HPI flag cleared myself.  It may be the dealer's or finance company's responsibility to do so, but I wouldn't trust them if I thought I could do it myself.  I would at least be asking what I can do to clear the marker.

 

Whether the OP can reject the car, or whether they've bought it or hired it, or whether they can VT it, is a moot point until it's established that there really is a mileage discrepancy and the car was not as described.

 

I'm not convinced that an honest typo (if that's what it was) on a 2015 MOT amounts to a defect entitling the OP to reject the car.

 

BF might be of the opinion that I'm trolling here, but he or she could not be further from the truth.  I'm trying to put forward an impartial point of view which I think could be of benefit to the OP while considering their position.  The only "evidence" of trolling that I've seen here was BF's own comment about taking a "trade-facing" point of view which I took, perhaps mistakenly, to be aimed at me.  I have no connections with the motor trade - I am simply trying to present an impartial POV.

 

I'll leave others to discuss the "finer" points of this problem now.

 

EDIT:  On a final note, nor am I convinced that the HPI report means that the car was not as described when "bought", "hired" or whatever, IF that HPI report is itself wrong because of a typo dating back to 2015.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2019 by Manxman in exile
Final contribution to this thread

[yogibear1]

Again... Car was sold as hpi clear it's not.  if it was hpi clear it would not say " FAIL mileage discrepancy". It's not clear on the hpi

I can't sell the car due to this error. so the car is defective and not as described simple. NOT hpi clear.

how would you feel if you bought a car and can't sell it? There must be a problem? if the car won't sell.  it's not a problem i created so sort it finance company.  

 

I've had legal advice and this is the case,

Edited April 25, 2019 by yogibear1

[yogibear1]

23 hours ago, Chuffnut said:

 

 

Are you going to answer my very simple question or not? Can you sell a car that has outstanding HP finance on it, yes or no? If you think no, you're wrong. If you think yes, why are you bleating on about the OP not "buying it" or whatever, it's irrelevant.

 

The fact is, you CAN sell a car that has outstanding HP on it. 

Explain to a prospective buyer, the car has outstanding finance and it's showing a mileage discrepancy

[Chuffnut]

15 hours ago, yogibear1 said:

Explain to a prospective buyer, the car has outstanding finance and it's showing a mileage discrepancy

Yes I understand that mate, I wasn't saying you have it easy, I was just pointing out to the other chap that he was making out that you would have difficulty selling the car on HP, which you won't. I understand the mileage discrepancy is your issue.