MotoNovo Finance - Jaguar on HPi with mileage discrepancy

[yogibear1]

Hi

 

I bought a second-hand Jaguar XJ 5 months ago on finance with a deposit.

I asked the finance company for a settlement figure as I was going to sell the car as I'm looking to move house.

A trader said he could buy the car and settle the finance but he called me and said he does not want the car as it's flagged on the Hpi report as a mileage discrepancy.

 

I did a check and it says MILEAGE DISCREPANCY FAIL in 2015 there is a discrepancy of minus 26000 miles.

It may be an error but it does not help me in selling the car.

 

When I selected the car from a trader the finance company told me they will check the car out before they give finance on it so I felt reassured.

I was not informed of a recorded discrepancy or I certainly would have not bought the car.

 

The trader who was going to buy the car said it would be difficult to sell due to this cloud over the car even if it went to an auction they would disclose the car having a mileage discrepancy.

 

I emailed the finance company

I had a call a couple of days later,

the person lied and said its not on the hpi

I said it is as i have it on my pc showing clearly a fail due to a mileage discrepancy.

He said could I send him a copy which I did via email.

A week later I emailed asking what is being done and I had an email stating they are looking into it.

 

I wrote to consumer direct who told me to complain to the finance company and send them a letter which I did.

The finance company has now sent a letter saying they are investigating this.

The letter was a template from consumer direct

they also said i must complain to the finance company

and they have alerted trading standards

and given me a case number.

 

I feel pretty peed off and worried as i have a car i will have difficulty selling as its a Jaguar XJ 5.0 and it was not a cheap car.

 

Any advice would be appreciated

[BankFodder]

Who did you buy the car from? In principle they would be responsible for having sold you a car which does not conform to its description. The finance company would also be liable under section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

Who did you buy the car from?

[yogibear1]

Hi

I bought the car on finance from Hampshire Specialist Vehicles Ltd.

Consumer direct sent me a email saying i must deal with the finance company and not the trader.

[BankFodder]

Firstly, I'm very curious to know what is "consumer direct". As far as I remember, consumer direct was a government consumer advice department which was shut down about the same time as the OST and also consumer focus – all part of the cuts that had to be made as a result of the financial crisis of 2009 – you can thank your banks for this.

 

Please will you post a link to this "consumer direct" service.  Please tell me how they delivered this advice to you.

Whoever it is that gave you this advice is talking rubbish. The liability is clearly with the dealer. It is with the dealer that you made your contract. The finance company will take liability under section 75 of the consumer credit act if you are unable to get a remedy from the dealer. The liability of the finance company mirrors exactly the liability of the dealer. The dealer has a responsibility under the Consumer Rights Act to sell you a vehicle which conforms with its description and that would include that it's true mileage must reflect the mileage which appears on its documentation and on its milometer.

I can imagine that there is probably even some statutory requirement as to the fact that recorded mileage must be a true record.

Who the hell is Consumer Direct and what on earth are they doing giving you this completely false advice? Unless maybe you have misunderstood what they have said

[BankFodder]

And to add – as a further observation, if the dealer has no liability, then the finance company has no liability because as I already said, their liability mirrors that of the dealer. The finance company's liability is predicated upon the liability of the dealer

[yogibear1]

hi

i have sent a letter to the finance company.

i will forward the company who you must go through if you have a complaint.

i think it is  Citizens Advice consumer helpline.

They told me to contact the finance company.l quote what they said.

Do i need to send a letter to the dealer ?

 

 

[BankFodder]

Okay, that makes a bit of sense. Citizens Advice are well-intentioned – but in many areas, that is probably the best that can be said of them.

It's up to you because who you want to go with but I'm afraid that citizens advice are quite wrong here – that is to say, they were wrong not to inform you about the supervening liability of the dealer.

Please will you post up the letter that you have sent to the finance company. You should certainly be sending letters to both of them so that they are both aware that you are going to stir it up.

Don't particularly expect the dealer to be helpful – although I suppose that I have a rather poisoned attitude about these things because that's the way it generally goes. I'm afraid that you may well find that you're going to have to be extremely persistent and robust in your handling of this in order to make headway. We will help you.

You have another issue of course and that is that you have probably  paid over the odds for the vehicle given the discrepancy in mileage.

You had better tell us a bit more about the vehicle, what was its apparent mileage and what is its actual mileage. What did you pay for the vehicle and what might you have paid for it had the actual mileage been known to you.

At the end of the day we need to understand what your loss is likely to be because that will be what you want to recover.

 

Also, I have suddenly realised that you have said that you purchased the vehicle five months ago. Are you sure about these dates? The reason is that if a defect occurs within the first six months of the contract then you are entitled under the Consumer Rights Act to a repair or a refund. It seems to me that the discrepancy in the mileage is good enough for you to invoke your Consumer Rights Act right to reject the vehicle and in that case I think you should write to the dealer in those terms. You can be certain that they won't be happy – but really that's too bad.

If you can deal with the questions I've asked above then we can move on.

[yogibear1]

Thank you for your help.

As soon as i get home i will tell you the contents of the letter i sent to the finance company and the email from citizens advice.

I paid £18000 for the car on the 2nd of November 2018.

If i had known there was recorded mileage discrepancy i would not of bought the vehicle.

In 2015 it shows a mot mileage of minus 26000 miles, this is what gets flagged on the Hpi. It says fail due to mileage discrepancy. 

I am very worried that i have a car i cant sell.

 

[BankFodder]

We would prefer that you scan these documents and post them up in PDF format please.

You're right to be worried.

On the basis of the dates you have given us, you are just within the six months.

I would write to them immediately – send the letter by recorded delivery and also by email.

Send it also to the finance company – then that recorded delivery as well and by email.

Put them on notice that the vehicle registration number XXX which they sold to you on 2 November 2018 does not conform with this description and is effectively defective because it appears that the apparent mileage is not accurate because such and such records show that the true mileage is XXXX Miles.

Tell them that accordingly you are asserting your right to reject the vehicle under the Consumer Rights Act although in accordance with the statute you are giving them a single opportunity to repair the problem and in respect of that you would like to know what their proposal is.

You should get this letter off immediately – at the very least it reserves your rights.

Next, you need to work out what you want to do. At £18,000 for a second-hand vehicle, this is obviously a very serious purchase. Under the legislation you will be entitled to recover your purchase price less a deduction for the use that you have had from the vehicle's 2 November – plus any reasonable losses that you might incur as a result of having to terminate the contract. This might include any extra insurance, and use road fund tax, any servicing et cetera that you might have paid for and the cost of returning the vehicle – et cetera you will have to work it out.

 

Have you approach the dealers about this at all? As you have paid such a large sum of money for such a quality vehicle, I would hope that the dealers step up to the plate and meet their responsibilities properly. However, you need to plan for the worst.

The worst will be that they try to fudge it by refusing to deal with you. You now need to decide whether or not you would be prepared to start a legal action – against them and also against the finance company if they will not step up to their own responsibilities.

Because you are dealing with such a large sum of money, you move off the small claims track which would give you protection from most of the costs of losing action onto the "fast track" which would leave you liable to certain costs if you lost the case.

On the basis of what you say, the chances of losing a claim against them would be negligible. Your chances of winning would be much better than 95% and I can expect that the only dispute will be about the level of the reduction which you would suffer as a result of the use you have had of the vehicle from 2 November. It would probably be a good idea for you to start calculating that figure and also start detailing the reasonable losses that might be associated with this problem once the vehicle is returned.


 

[yogibear1]

Hi

Thank you for taking the time to help me.

I have attached the vehicle check and the letter i have sent to the Finance company.

I have also attached the mileage discrepancy via pdf

Do I send the same letter to the dealer?

 

Regards Mark

Letter to complain about faulty goods11.pdf Total Car Check Report For V50STM.pdf

 

ps i have not contacted the dealer as i was told to contact the finance company which i have done.

 

Citizens consumer stated this to me. Below

  

Thank you for your enquiry to Citizens Advice consumer service dated 29/03/2019. Your reference number is ZC15441973.

We understand from your email that you purchased a vehicle on a hire purchase agreement. When looking to sell the vehicle to settle the finance you have found that there are mileage discrepancies so no garage is willing to buy the car from you.  

 

Your rights and obligations

As the vehicle was purchased on a Hire Purchase agreement the following rights would be against the finance company and not the trader the vehicle was collected from.

Under the Consumer Rights Act all goods supplied by a trader should be as described. This means they should match any description you relied upon while deciding on your purchase. If the trader fails to meet these requirements, you may be able to claim a suitable remedy as outlined below.

As the first 30 days from purchase has passed, you could ask for a repair or complete replacement item. You can ask specifically for either one however it may be seen as a reasonable remedy to provide a repair unless it was to cause you a significant inconvenience.

It would be down to the trader to prove within the first 6 months from purchase that the goods are as described meaning they would have to prove the mileage advertised at the time of sale was correct.

If one repair or replacement does not resolve the situation or you have not been given a remedy within a reasonable time, you could then argue for your Final Right to Reject for a full refund which may be reduced by a reasonable amount for the usage you have had of the item; Ultimately the reduction would be for you to negotiate with the trader. An alternative to this could be a price reduction. This would mean you would keep the goods and have a reasonable price reduction to account for this fault.

[BankFodder]

I now see that the finance was they hire purchase agreement. That makes a difference and so Citizens Advice are correct. I had understood from your original post that it was a straight finance/loan agreement under the consumer credit act.

You need to disregard what I have said.  I suppose I should have asked you more specifically about the finance.

However, The Consumer Rights Act 2015 applies – but it applies against the high purchase company because they are effectively the owner of the goods.

You should certainly assert your right against the high purchase company within six months – meaning on Monday by recorded post and also by email but also as a backup I would send a similar letter to the dealer simply to reserve your rights in all cases. It won't do you any harm.

Have you told us who the finance company is?

I've already explained to you the necessity of calculating your losses and also the value of any likely reduction which could be applied in respect of the issue have had of the vehicle. You may be lucky in that the high purchase company can't be bothered to nitpick in terms of offering you a reduced value – so I wouldn't bring it up until they do. However, you may as well start doing some calculations as to the value you have had from it. You will need to measure this in terms of the mileage you have used against the reason expected mileage of the vehicle over a certain lifespan – maybe 10 years. It could get complicated.

I should certainly watch out for any sense that you might gather the high purchase company is reluctant to meet their responsibilities and you need to be quick to take control of that appears to happen. I understand that you won the money in order to purchase property. Is this imminent?

[yogibear1]

The finance company is MotoNovo Finance.

The house purchase is not imminent just something we want to do.

I have a house to sell.

We are just getting everything ready so selling the car was a great idea.

You can imagine the shock when I was told its a fail on the Hpi. 

 

I have sent the letter recorded to the finance company and they sent me a letter last week saying they are looking into the issue.

I've heard nothing since. 

 

I have cared for the car recently getting a service for nearly £300 and a new MOT.

 

 

[BankFodder]

Well you have improved vehicle and I see no reason why you should suffer this loss. As I have said, you need to start calculating what you might be prepared to accept by way of a reduction to reflect your five months of use. The high purchase company may not referred to this – but you need to be ready for it and you need to be ready to negotiate.

I think I would give them another five days – until Friday to come back to you – and then I would start chasing them.

 

I'm afraid that after almost 14 years of this website, I have become deeply suspicious of all of these finance companies and I think it's very important that you keep control.

I would suggest that next Friday, if you haven't heard from them that you write to them by way of a formal complaint and give them eight weeks to resolve the matter or you will go to the ombudsman. This may be overkill – but at least you protect your position and it costs you nothing. It would probably be a lot easier then going to the County Court immediately – but if you're house purchase became imminent then you would put we have to consider some more assertive action – a court claim – really to move things along. Presumably you have supplied the finance company with all of the evidence so there really shouldn't be much of a need for them to take their time ever coming back to you with an answer. Having begun the eight weeks complaint process prior to going to the ombudsman won't cause any delays but it will add pressure it will also mean that if they really do prevaricate then at the expiry of the eight weeks you are in a position to go immediately to the ombudsman rather than just setting out upon the eight-week process which will add needless delay.

I'm afraid that I found on this website that one needs to keep control and that means that one needs to be quite assertive and robust in one's approach.

Keep the dealer appraised of everything that's happening and and hopefully that will add additional pressure. Make sure that the finance company knows the dealer is being copied in and make sure that the dealer knows that you are involving the finance company. At the end of the day they need the goodwill of the finance company for future  sales and I can imagine that the finance company is probably asking them what is going on that they are selling high value vehicles with inaccurate mileage records. I think you could suggest to the dealer that you will be notifying trading standards – although between us, it won't make a jot of difference – but it might help the dealer to put their hands up to the finance company. I can imagine that the finance company is probably waiting for the dealer to admit the problem before paying you out.

[buyer-beware]

There might be a very simple answer to this, kilometres recorded as

miles, it happens all the time, but the

previous owner misses it and confirms mileage correct when sold. You need clarification on the mileage error, get your facts / case correct before jumping head on. Ask your retailer the source of the car and was the mileage warranted correct to them, they might have done their due diligence correctly. Just saying.

[yogibear1]

Hi

I have sent the recorded letter last week to the finance company. They said they will reply within 14 days.

 

There is no way it's in kilometres. as it's minus 26000 miles in 2015.

The fact remains the car failed a Hpi report as a mileage discrepancy and it will cause me problems in selling it as I've recently found out.

It was bought from a dealer who should have checked the car out as well as the finance company who told me they will check the car is fine before financing it.

 

Edited April 13, 2019 by yogibear1

[BankFodder]

I see that they are asking for 28 days to come back to you. I think this is far too long and you have no idea whether that means that in 28 days they will provide a solution or they will require further time.

I would suggest that you send them a letter immediately telling them that 28 days is too long and you are now beginning a formal complaint which you want taken to the ombudsman in eight weeks.

It may not hurry things up at the moment – but at least if they don't provide a solution then you have saved yourself at least 28 days in the run-up to the ombudsman process.

A 28 days open-ended promise is absurd.

[BankFodder]

You say 14 days but I read 28

[yogibear1]

 

Sorry my error

 

The letter states "We aim to respond in 28 days."

 i will take your advice and send them a recorded letter on Monday

[BankFodder]

Send a copy to the dealer as well

[yogibear1]

Hi

do i now include the dealer by sending him a complaint letter that i sent to the finance company?

Or do i just deal with the finance company as citizens advice suggested i do?

[buyer-beware]

What’s the registration? 

[BankFodder]

Just copy them in.  Make it clear at the bottom of your letters to the HP company that the dealer is seeing everything.  It is probably not significant - but it can't hurt

[yogibear1]

Here is a copy of the letter i will send the finance company on Monday, is it suitable?

regards

 

 

"Thank you for your reply. However, I find waiting 28 days rather excessive.

I will now be starting a formal complaint which I want to be taken to the ombudsman in eight weeks from the dated complaint letter I sent to you."

Edited April 13, 2019 by yogibear1

[BankFodder]

Quote

 

Dear XXX

 

Formal Complaint

Thank you for your reply dated XXX reference number XXX.

I notice that you say that you will revert to me in 28 days. I'm sorry to say that this timescale is excessive. I have supplied you with all the documents you need to make a rapid decision and I'm not prepared to be saddled with this vehicle for any longer than necessary as I have to start preparing myself to purchase an alternative vehicle with an accurate mileage and which does conform to its description.

The vehicle which I have purchased through yourselves is clearly defective and as such I am rejecting it under the Consumer Rights Act 2015.
I require you to make immediate arrangements to collect the vehicle from me and to let me have a refund of my purchase price plus my reasonable ancillary losses which so far amount to
detail the losses

Accordingly, please treat this letter as my formal complaint. You have eight weeks to produce a resolution failing which you are required to provide me with a final response and we will then escalate the matter to the Financial Ombudsman Service.

Please Respond by Return.

 

 

[yogibear1]

Thanks your a star!!

regards