MBNA DN Dates?

[InformedSearcher]

Could someone verify to me what 'terminate' actually means?

In my case I have had (I believe) an invalid DN followed by a 'Final Demand'. There followed 2 x DCA letters followed by a solicitor letter. The strange thing is that the DN/FD had one figure on it and the DCA/Legal a different (lower) one.

 

Thanks

Michael

[hungrybear]

general send you a notice under sections 76/98 of the cca or sell to a dca or take you to court.

[InformedSearcher]

general send you a notice under sections 76/98 of the cca or sell to a dca or take you to court.

 

Thank you for that!! I'm still a little confused because nothing mentioning '76/98' is printed on anything after the DN was received. I've copied the 'Final Demand' below. Does that constitute 'Termination'? I received 2 x DCA letters and a solicitor letter after.

 

...................

 

 

 

9th September 2009

 

Dear Mr X. X

FINAL DEMAND

NAMES OF DEBTOR: Mr X. X

Despite our previous communication concerning your debt, we have to date received no satisfactory response.

We now DEMAND immediate repayment of £00,0000.00 (-full amount entered in words -).

Interest will be added on the same basis as presently applies.

YOU HAVE EIGHTEEN DAYS TO REPAY IN FULL or let us have satisfactory proposals for repayment by instalments or otherwise. If immediate repayment in full cannot be made, the attached Statement of Means form must be completed and returned.

ACTION may be taken against you through DEBT COLLECTORS SOLICITORS if you fail to comply with this demand within 18 days. You may also be taken to COURT.

As a DEFAULTING DEBTOR, details of your default including your name and address will be given to the CREDIT REFERENCE AGENCIES named below if we do not receive a satisfactory response from you. Credit Reference Agencies supply information to lenders in order to establish people's credit histories quickly and simply. Lenders then use this information to help decide whether or not to accept applications for credit from customers. If details of your default are given to Credit Reference Agencies, this may make it more difficult for you to obtain credit elsewhere in future.

Yours sincerely

...................................

 

Thanks in advance as any help would be most valuable to me.

 

Michael

[teaboy2]

sounds like a normal threatogram letter from a DCA.

Do they refer to who their cleint is?

if they refer to the original creditor as a cleint then you can assume it has not been sold.

 

But your best bet would be to get confirmation of whether it has been sold or not. S

o what i would do is contact the original creditor and ask whether the account has been sold, if so they will tell you who it was sold too.

DO NOT PHONE THE DCA THEY WILL MISLEAD YOU IN ORDER TO GET YOU TO MAKE PAYMENT!

[InformedSearcher]

hungrybear said:

NO - sorry. It would start 'this is a termination notice under sections 78(1) and 98 of the cca.

was it sold to the dca? - then it WOULD be terminated at the point of sale.

 

Thank you too 'Teaboy' - Erm, that was the the banks Final Demand. Does this mean that the next letter from their 'in-house' DCA mean that termination is effective?

 

This is the first (in house) DCA 1st letter after that though;

 

..................................

 

26th October 2009

URGENT COMMUNICATION

DO NOT IGNORE

Your account with: XXXXXX Bank pIc

Account Number: XXX Outstanding balance: £00.000,00

We are disappointed to note that we have been unable to come to an arrangement to clear the outstanding balance on your account.

You must telephone us immediately on FREEPHONE (number) to confirm when full repayment will be made.

If you do not contact us we intend to instruct (XX) Solicitors to issue legal proceedings and apply to issue a Warrant of Execution.

We should explain that a Warrant of Execution gives the Court Bailiff authority to take goods which belong to you from your home and sell them. The amount that the goods fetch is paid towards your debt.

 

 

Additional fees and costs will be added to your balance should this course

of actionprove necessary.

Our offices are open between the hours and 8:00am and 4:00pm Saturday.

of 8:00am and 9:00pm Monday to Friday

You can prevent this action if you contact us now on FREEPHONE (number).

Yours

sincerely,　

.......................................................

 

I have to say 'Warrant' seems a bit presumptious to say the least.

Comments welcome?

 

Michael

[teaboy2]

If they are using in house DCA then it has not been sold. However If they have failed to comply with a cca request then they are in Default of the account and can not enforce or pursue you for payment until they have fully complied with section 77/78 of the consumer credit act 1974. So if you have not put in a cca request, you should do so now.

 

Also they can not apply for a warrant of execution without first first applying for a CCJ. Do you have any CCJ against you? If not they would need a CCJ against you prior to getting a warrant of excution to excute the CCJ upon your failure to comply with the CCJ. Basically their letter is legally misleading and breach of oft guidlines in my view.

 

you should check your credit file to see if they have a CCJ then apply to the court to have it set aside if you did not receive the particulars of the claim from them, resulting in you being unaware of their claim against you and as such unable to enter a defence or set aside on the grounds of invaild default notice.

[InformedSearcher]

Thank you again!!

The Default is shown on both Experian and Equifax. Nothing further has happened in regards to a CCJ and I have that notion that it's a 'catch 22' situation. The DN on the CRA files is as bad as a CCJ. They have ignored my CRA request regarding an invalid DN and the CRA itself will not remove the entry. This is so typical that they do the 'roughshod' route it seems.

 

There's a 2nd (again in house) DCA letter;

 

...................................................

 

3rd November 2009

FINAL DEXAND

Dear Mr X,

Your account With: X Bank pIc

Account Number: xxxxxx/xxxxxxxx Outstanding balance: £00,000.00

You have failed to make payment as requested and we therefore now have no

alternative but to take further action against you.

This may involve: Debt Collectors who may call at your door, or XX Solicitors issuing legal proceedings which may result in:

- a County Court Judgment being registered against you;

- a County Court Bailiff visiting your home and taking goods;

- an Attachment of Earnings order which may result in your current or future employer being ordered to deduct payments from your salary.

If legal action is taken, it will result in legal fees and costs of £493.00 being added to your outstanding balance.

You can prevent this by paying the full outstanding balance within the next 24 hours using the Bank Giro Credit Slip below. Alternatively, call us and pay with a debit or credit card over the telephone. You can also make payments securely on line at (website) by debit or credit card.

An opportunity to pay by instalments may still be available to you but you must call us immediately to discuss this further on FREEPHONE 0500 xxxxxx.

Yours sincerely

 

.......................................

 

Quite amusing that they are suggesting a credit card - made me smile.

This is a loan account by the way. I left the 'fee' amount showing. Should I be doing a S.A.R rather than a cca?

Comments?

 

Michael

[hungrybear]

bullsh$%t letter I'm afraid, says nowt of importance

 

there is no such thing as a cra dn - they are two different processes - for the creditor. DO NOT confuse a cra entry with a DN - in law one is nothing, the latter is very important

[teaboy2]

agree with hungrybear. also with regards to the court cost being added to the amount.. Well that a load of rubbish, only a judge can decide what costs are to be awarded and i doubt they know what their actuall costs would be until they start proceedings and even then the judge may not award them. Infact he wont cos hell throw it out due to the invalid Default notice

[hungrybear]

Full of good intentions - mine's two sugars and a digestive:D

 

It's easy to sound smug and flippant when you're out making the tea and not in court, but I agree with the general principles of teaboy, just make sure you take the 'doing the judge' bit seriously.

 

Countless people have lost on a 'it aint enforceable innit' defence. You still have to walk the golden mile EVEN if it's a 'cake walk'.

 

TEABOY I'm not 'having a go', just seen too many lose on a winner 'cos they didnt prepare. And I think IS need a reality check on this - after all it's his bum on the line

[teaboy2]

I understand hungrybear and i agree, lots have lost their case due to improper defence. but its also due to judges that may not be aware, or have not been pointed in the direction of the Consumer credit act sections 87/88/89 that details how a default notice should be set out.

[InformedSearcher]

I'd better show you the CRA reply (as in from the client), all of a two liner ignoring the DN issue as invalid;

 

Response (Administrator)04/12/2009 03.30 PM The repayment was required by 14/8, this was not met and final demand followed dated 9/9. Bank have acted in line with their procedures in this regard and the debt remains outstanding

 

.................

I do not dispute the debt but the DN as I consider it whlly invalid - hence my comment earlier regarding 'Catch 22'! The CRA's data controller (in my view) ignored my comments that the DN was invalid which therefore makes him/her associated with the entry. CRA's seem to hide behind the 'Our client MUST make decisions and it's out of our hands'.

 

Michael

 

Now we have the (again in house) solicitor letter:

...................................

 

 

Pre-Sue Unit

24 November 2009

Dear Mr X,

RE: Your Account with XXXXX Bank Pic Account Number xxxx/xxxxxxxx Outstanding Balance £00,000.00

We act for XXXXX Bank Pic of (address) ("the Bank" ) . We refer to the Bank's correspondence with you demanding repayment of this debt. We are advised that despite the demand full repayment has not been made .

We have therefore been instructed to take legal action again st you in the County Court to recover this debt. This may result in the Bank obtaining a judgment against you which may affect your abi lity to obtain credit.

To avoid legal action, you must pay the amount outstanding with in fourteen days from the date of this letter . If you need more time to pay, we may be able to arrange th is. Please telephone th is office immediately on FREEPHONE (number).

Payment can be made by credit card or debit card over the telephone, or your payment can be sent to this office . Please quote your name and account number with your payment . You can also pay cash at any UK Post Office or PayPoint outiet using a payment card administered by Girobank. Please contact us for further detai Is.

Free independent advice and assistance can be obtained from National Debtline (Freephone 0808 808 4000); Consumer Credit Counselling Service

(Freephone 0800 138 1111); Citizens Advice (the address and telephone number is available via your local Yellow Pages or Thomson local directory, or from their website -www.citizensadvice.org .uk); or Community Legal Advice (0845 345 4345).

It is important that you immediately contact us.

Yours faithfuIIy,

...........................

It's again amusing that the 'Dear Mr.' should in fact never end with 'Yours faithfully' but there again English grammar in recent years has nose dived! There's the CC (not many people have that level of credit) payment option - surprising. Any paypoint location would 'drool' at that amount of cash! LOL Don't you love the 'pre-sue' bit?! I'm sure many have detected which bank this is by now.

Further comments?

 

Michael

(p.s. I'll show the actual DN notice and final demand (abridged of course) in my next post.

 

The Default Notce (bits of course removed);

 

.................................

Default Notice served under Section 87(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

IMPORTANT -YOU SHOULD READ THIS CAREFULLY

This notice refers to a credit agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 under

Account No. XXXXXXXX

DETAILS OF DEFAULT:

Term breached: The term or terms of the agreement form requiring you to make payments.

Nature of breach: Failure to make payments as required Mnder the agreement.

ACTION REQU]RED

On or before 14 August 2009 you are required to take the following action to remedy this

breach:

to pay arrears of £0,000.00

IF THE ACTION REQUlRED BY THIS NOTICE IS TAKEN BEFORE THE DATE

SHOWN NO FURTHER ENFORCEMENT ACTION WILL BE TAKEN IN RESPECT OF

THE BREACH.

IF YOU DO NOT TAKE THE ACTION REQUIRED BY THIS NOTICE BEFORE THE

DATE SHOWN THEN THE FURTHER ACTION SET OUT BELOW MAY BE TAKEN

AGAINST YOu.

FURTHER ACTION

Recovery of all moneys outstanding under this loan Agreement.

Continued

(Bank phone number, address and website)

BANK

Amount owing, including interest and

charges up to 3 August 2009

. £00,000.00

Less rebate due to you

£0,000.00

Total amount to be repaid as at the above date

£00,000.00

N.B. These figures are calculated on the assumption that the borrowing is repaid by the date specified above and that there are no further transactions on your account after today's date. The amount to be repaid will be revised ifthere are any further transactions, or if payment in full of the amount is not made by the specified date.

This notice should include a copy of the current Office ofFair Trading Information Sheet on default. This contains important information about your rights and where to go for support and advice. Ifit is not included, you should contact us to get one.

IF YOU HAVE DIFFICULTY IN PAYfNG ANY SUM OWING UNDER THE AGREEMENT OR TAKING ANY OTHER ACTION REQUIRED BY TillS NOTICE, YOU CAN APPLY TO THE COURT WIllCH MAY MAKE AN ORDER ALLOWING YOU OR ANY SURETY MORE TIME.

IF YOU ARE NOT SURE WHAT TO DO, YOU SHOULD GET HELP AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. FOR EXAMPLE, YOU SHOULD CONTACT A SOLICITOR, YOUR LOCAL TRADING STANDARDS DEPARTMENT, OR YOUR NEAREST CITIZENS' ADVICE BUREAU

Manager 4 August 2009 Date of Signature

.....................................

Spot the dates! Nothing uch mire to say but after the final demand the amount is wholly different.

 

Michael

 

The Final Demand (with certain bits removed of course);

 

.................................................

Reference: XXXXX XXXXXX 9 September 2009

Dear Mr X

FINAL DEMAND

NAMES OF DEBTOR: Mr X. X

Despite our previous communication concerning your debt, we have to date received no satisfactory response.

We now DEMAND immediate repayment of £00,000.00 (amount in characters).

Interest will be added on the same basis as presently applies.

YOU HAVE EIGHTEEN DAYS TO REPAY IN FULL or let us have satisfactory proposals for repayment by instalments or otherwise. If immediate repayment in full cannot be made, the attached Statement ofMeans form must be completed and returned.

ACTION may be taken against you through DEBT COLLECTORS or SOLICITORS if you fail to comply with this demand within 18 days You may also be taken to COURT.

Continued

(Bank details and phone number)

(Bank ID)

Mr X 9 September 2009

As a DEFAULTING DEBTOR, details of your default including your name and address will be given to the CREDIT REFERENCE AGENCIES named below if we do not receive a satisfactory response from you. Credit Reference Agencies supply information to lenders in order to establish people's credit histories quickly and simply. Lenders then use this information to help decide whether or not to accept applications for credit from customers. If details ofyour default are given to Credit Reference Agencies, this may make it more difficult for you to obtain credit elsewhere in future.

Yours sincerely

(name)

Senior Manager Collections

Enc.

Experian Ltd, PO Box 8000, Nottingham, NG80 7WF.

Equifax PLC, Credit File Advice Centre, PO Box 1140, Bradford, BD1 SUS.

Callcredit, Consumer Services Team, PO Box 491, Leeds, LS3 1 WZ.

.......................................

Funny as I did not see any 'enclosures' but I'll again put it down to bad grammar. Well you now have the full picture remembering the dates and a bit of 'dodgy' data from the DN. I hope the banks 'people/spies' look at this and consider I was always open and helpful (and still unemployed) they might see a different sie of life - I doubt it.

Some help and suggestions would be so welcome.

 

Michael

[hungrybear]

This is dated the fourth and remedy by the 14th is that correct?

Is so it is well short, ,even harry potter couldnt deliver that in time!

[hungrybear]

So IS, where is this 'at' now? You have a dodgy DN, a final demand - which is not strictly termination and a letter from the pre-sooty and sue unit.

 

Is that where it's up to now?

[vint1954]

They have a duty of care to provide accurate information. They will try but cannot hide behind their customers when they break the law, just as I could not say it was ok for me to take my neighbours car because you told me I could. Silly Billies.

 

Have a look here.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/222663-cras-ocs-credit-ref.html

[InformedSearcher]

Yes, solicitor letter was the last from them.

Events:

DN

Final Demand

2 x in house DCA letters

1 x in house Solicitor letter.

 

Michael

[hungrybear]

I would say that it's next move them to be honest - provided you are prepared to 'brass it out' based on the DN.

 

HAve you sent then a cca request? If not, that would annoy them no end

[InformedSearcher]

I would say that it's next move them to be honest - provided you are prepared to 'brass it out' based on the DN.

 

HAve you sent then a cca request? If not, that would annoy them no end

 

 

Well thank you (again) sincerely for this. I shall wait it out. My own view is that they want to wear me down - years ago it would have worked but now I must be getting too cynical because I don't believe much of the jargon churned out.

Are you suggesting I send a CCA request too or just wait? I think I've already annoyed them! LOL

 

Michael

[InformedSearcher]

Thank you for this - blimey such good readin on so many threads!

 

Michael

[InformedSearcher]

My apologies here - especially to 'Basil Fawlty'

I seem to have taken over/hijacked the thread here.

Is there a possibility that a moderator could move all my bits to a new thread of my own?

 

Apologies again!

 

Michael

[Basil Fawlty]

My apologies here - especially to 'Basil Fawlty'

I seem to have taken over/hijacked the thread here.

Is there a possibility that a moderator could move all my bits to a new thread of my own?

 

Apologies again!

 

Michael

 

No need, unless you wish to have a thread of your own.

As I said, I'm interested in other peoples experiences on this subject,

I may very well learn something.

I have nothing more to offer on this thread until termination has taken

place, so feel free to carry on posting!

 

Cheers

BF

[InformedSearcher]

No need, unless you wish to have a thread of your own.

As I said, I'm interested in other peoples experiences on this subject,

I may very well learn something.

I have nothing more to offer on this thread until termination has taken

place, so feel free to carry on posting!

 

Cheers

BF

 

 

Thank you for this.

Well I'm just waiting too it seems.

 

Michael

[hungrybear]

Thank you for this.

Well I'm just waiting too it seems.

 

Michael

 

 

And that my friend is the most important bit! All you could do now is send off missives and potentially put your foot in it (and it is real smelly).

[InformedSearcher]

And that my friend is the most important bit! All you could do now is send off missives and potentially put your foot in it (and it is real smelly).

 

 

I think it is quite unfair (as many things are!) that some 'crummy' DCA can tamper with your life, that a financial institution can mess up your CRA files and get away with it in a flash. OTOH you have to wait, 14/21/28/40 days for a reply and that does not mean they change anything.

Personally I think the law should be changed to state to a consumer what is going to happen (and I don't mean suggest) which gives you chance to stop it. I think should be in every respect including when you get a DN notice that they tell you what will happen 'exactly', again not just say 'it might'.

 

One of the whole things that really annoys me with all the suuposed consumer protection laws in palce. Someone overlooked the real simple obvious.

 

Michael

[hungrybear]

I think it is quite unfair (as many things are!) that some 'crummy' DCA can tamper with your life, that a financial institution can mess up your CRA files and get away with it in a flash. OTOH you have to wait, 14/21/28/40 days for a reply and that does not mean they change anything.

Personally I think the law should be changed to state to a consumer what is going to happen (and I don't mean suggest) which gives you chance to stop it. I think should be in every respect including when you get a DN notice that they tell you what will happen 'exactly', again not just say 'it might'.

 

One of the whole things that really annoys me with all the suuposed consumer protection laws in palce. Someone overlooked the real simple obvious.

 

Michael

 

the laws were written by cricket playing ex public school boys - old chap!

what does need to change asap is that the cras stop putting profit before the truth - the ONLY non government bodies that can really stuff your life up