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tony3x

Lost TfL Apprentice Oyster with season ticket on journey - Got Penalty Charge

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My daughter has received an on the spot penalty charge from TFL for travelling without a ticket.

 

She has an apprentice Oyster card with her season ticket on it.

She tapped in at the beginning of the journey (only way to get through barrier)

when she got to her destination she realised she had lost her Oyster card.

 

Went to a ticket inspector who proceeded to read her the riot act and had her in tears (a complaint will be going in about his actions).

She willingly gave her details and the inspector even made a call to check she was telling the truth about her season ticket

- he then issued the charge notice.

 

She has been onto TFL to get the journey history but they need 48 hours for it to show, and to order a replacement card.

 

I am assuming that on appeal this will be cancelled as she had tapped in but just wondered if anyone had any experience of this.

 

Thx

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Hi,

 

Bearing in mind the requirement to hold a ticket (or Oyster Card in your daughter’s case) hasn’t been met (technically), the Penalty Fare Notice was correctly issued. The whole ethos behind Byelaw 18 is that it sets the requirement to buy a ticket before travelling, and/or be able to produce a ticket on demand. The fact that one cannot produce a ticket may well be that they have lost said ticket, or it may be that they ‘lent it’ to a mate to use.

 

I have a couple of questions here;

 

1. How old is your daughter? 

2. In what way did the member of staff ‘read her the riot act’ and subsequently have your daughter in tears?

 

The fact remains here that the notice appears to have been issued in-line with the set down policies etc. It’s worth noting that the Penalty Fare is a means of disposing of a matter by way of few, and is a civil remedy for an otherwise criminal matter. Your daughter had committed an offence, albeit unwittingly or so it seems. This was the most appropriate course of action. If the member of staff thought she was deliberately out to defraud them, she’d have been reported and potentially be looking as a Magistrates’ Court Simmons (assuming she’s old enough).

 

So to Summarise;

 

By all means appeal the notice, and I’d never dissuade anyone from doing so as it’s their right. However, bear in mind that irrespective if you have proof the card was tapped in at the start of a journey, it doesn’t Prove that the card was in your daughter’s pocession.

 

complain to TfL if you wish too of course, but you’ll need specifics other than ‘she was read the riot act’.

 

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My daughter is 18 and the inspector basically accused her of lying even though he could see she was upset - typical of the type of bully that do these jobs as I am sure if it was someone a bit older his attitude may not have been the same.

 

The penalty is for 'no ticket or pass' which as you say is technically true but I really can't see how they can penalise someone for losing a pass when we can prove that it was used to tap in and not used since. Quite willing to go to court as long as it remains a civil matter, regardless of cost as its the principle that is important to me.

 

Appeal has been submitted along with her journey history that shows the tap in but no tap out.

 

I was a couple of trains behind her so asked at the originating station if anything had been handed in but nothing, the staff were all very helpful and all thought that the ticket will be cancelled. Fingers crossed.

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, tony3x said:

My daughter is 18 and the inspector basically accused her of lying even though he could see she was upset - typical of the type of bully that do these jobs as I am sure if it was someone a bit older his attitude may not have been the same.

 

The penalty is for 'no ticket or pass' which as you say is technically true but I really can't see how they can penalise someone for losing a pass when we can prove that it was used to tap in and not used since. Quite willing to go to court as long as it remains a civil matter, regardless of cost as its the principle that is important to me.

 

Appeal has been submitted along with her journey history that shows the tap in but no tap out.

 

I was a couple of trains behind her so asked at the originating station if anything had been handed in but nothing, the staff were all very helpful and all thought that the ticket will be cancelled. Fingers crossed.

 

If your daughter appeals and loses (I say your daughter because it’s her responsibility as an adult), she will need to pay the amount due. If this remains unpaid, the notice will be cancelled and it will go to court. However this will be under the original Byelaw (18(2) more than likely) which is a strict liability matter, meaning there’s no real defence to it. This is a criminal matter so won’t be kept ‘civil’ as the PF was initially.

 

I would be very careful how you broach this, as you weren’t there. You’re quick to criticise the staff member and to be honest all revenue staff by saying they’re typically ‘bullies’, but not only is that an uneducated and unfounded assumption made by you, it won’t do you any favours having this attitude when complaining. Don’t tar all staff with the same brush. I don’t know what you do for a living, but if I insinuated you were a bully, I’m sure you’d take umbrage. You’re also stating these occurrences as fact when, again, you weren’t there. There’s good and bad in all walks of life.

Edited by Stigy

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So my daughter approaches a staff member and is reduced to tears by his attitude, handled differently and, although the outcome is the same regarding the 'offence' my daughter walks away feeling differently.

 

While I was not there my daughter has a very good recollection of what happened as well as phoning me straight away, I stand by my thoughts that the inspector would have handled it differently with someone older. The way you deal with people in difficult situations says a lot about the person, a bit of empathy goes a long way.

 

The appeal does not mention the inspector at all as his attitude has nothing to do with the 'offence'. This will be dealt with by way of a complaint to TFL. 

 

Looking at the ticket again, it has been issued in accordance with the Greater London Authority Act 1999 and checking the act it says that the penalty fare is £50 reduced to £25 if paid within 21 days, although I may have missed any amendments. Daughters 'fine' is £80 reduced to £40. May need further investigation if the appeal is unsuccessful!

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1 hour ago, tony3x said:

So my daughter approaches a staff member and is reduced to tears by his attitude, handled differently and, although the outcome is the same regarding the 'offence' my daughter walks away feeling differently.

 

While I was not there my daughter has a very good recollection of what happened as well as phoning me straight away, I stand by my thoughts that the inspector would have handled it differently with someone older. The way you deal with people in difficult situations says a lot about the person, a bit of empathy goes a long way.

 

Handled differently in comparison to who? Which aspect of the staff member’s attitude reduced your daughter to tears?

 

I’m not a revenue inspector but I deal with everyone consistently, whilst also applying an amount of discretion where required. Would your daughter have been dealt with in this way with me dealing with her? Maybe, but I wasn’t there so can’t say for sure (although I don’t issue PFs I report people for offences).

 

The penalty amount I believe is the latter, £80 or £40 within 2-weeks these days.

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I understand your defence of the inspectors attitude now.

 

Handled more compassionately - nothing to do with different to who.

 

An 18 year old approaches a member of staff to tell the truth and not try to get through the barrier (which is not overly difficult in London rush hour) and instead of being a bit compassionate and explaining the situation with regard the penalty fare he makes her feel like she has done something wrong - which no doubt you agree with. Not my idea of how to deal with the public!

 

I will not be continuing this debate with you as you quite obviously feel that the inspectors attitude was justified.

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, tony3x said:

I understand your defence of the inspectors attitude now.

 

Handled more compassionately - nothing to do with different to who.

 

An 18 year old approaches a member of staff to tell the truth and not try to get through the barrier (which is not overly difficult in London rush hour) and instead of being a bit compassionate and explaining the situation with regard the penalty fare he makes her feel like she has done something wrong - which no doubt you agree with. Not my idea of how to deal with the public!

 

I will not be continuing this debate with you as you quite obviously feel that the inspectors attitude was justified.

 

So you come here for advice, and expect people independent of the industry to help you? That’s not how it works. You should expect people to tell you the truth here and not simply tell you what you want to hear.

 

All I’m guilty of here is actually trying to help you, in a realistic approach. If you’re blinkered by what your daughter has said, that’s your problem as far as I’m concerned. Rather than getting on your high horse, how about a “thanks for your help”? It’s common courtesy to acknowledge somebody when they’ve advised you, not just get on the back foot.

 

It now becomes ever more evident that this issue here probably wasn’t the member of staff, if your daughter’s attitude is anything like yours.

 

I don’t get paid to be here, I’m doing this in my own time because I like to help where I can. Most people appreciate it.

 

You’re welcome, by the way.

 

 

Edited by Stigy
  • Thanks 1

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But you haven't really given any advice, you have just thrown rules/regs at me. I just asked if anyone had any experience of the appeal, you obviously haven't. You have not advised me of anything.

 

Still defending the member of staff when you wasn't there (unless you are the person involved!).

 

Please explain what about my attitude you do not like, because I didn't suck up to you. What you have said has not taken this forward at all unless it was to massage your own ego about how much you 'think' you know!

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lets look at things without emotion. A passenger approaches the gate and says they have lost their oyster card. now that may be true or it may be not. the inspector has a number of ways of dealing with this and opts for use of a law that creates an absolute offence- ie  it doesnt matter what the circumstance is there was a failure to produce a ticket/authority to travel upon demand. It may be that the inspector decided to go down this route because they wanted to be nasty but that doesnt change the law or the lack of ticket so your daughter has to now make an approach to the railway co to get them to consider an alternative.

Stopping on a red route is an absolute offence but breaking down isnt. We dont know exactly what your daughter said at the time but if it was I have lost/mislaid my card then that will, in the mind of the inspector rule out at least one of the  possible alternatives.

Reporting the loss/theft of the card would be a start and also request to see any data held that indicates it has been used since the time of her initial tap in that day up until the present time. If they have CCTV that goes with a barrier activation and it is a man swiping out then there will be evidence of theft of the card ( and possibly other offences that may include theft from the person if she was pickpocketed) and that would be very bad publicity for the railway co if it was determined to prosecute and it would be a very odd magistrate that didnt consider the inability to be able to fulfil the request because some bandit was using it elsewhere at the time.

so, she does need to appeal and start off with doing the SAR and stating quite clearly what info she wants and why. She should also report the crime if the card has been used to the BTP as well as the railway co.

 

 I have been clobbered for a £20 penalty for having the wrong ticket for the journey even though it was bought at a ticket office and I expressly made clear  what my journey was to be. Sometimes it is the lesser of 2 evils to pay up even though it is unfair and not of your doing.

also bear this in mind, no-one is infallible and the inspector may well change their mind about the clarity of  what decisions they were weighing up if it was put to a magistrate with other evidence but with all court hearings there is risk and reward for both sides.

 

However, it isnt smart to react aggressivelty to other forum members when they are helping even if you dont think it is help. help isnt always telling you what you want to hear,  Stigy was just explaining quite clearly the law and processes and armed with that knowledge you should be able to make some progress with an appeal by focussing on the right things. Undoubtedly you will use this information  despite not liking getting the advice without a sugar coating

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, tony3x said:

But you haven't really given any advice, you have just thrown rules/regs at me. I just asked if anyone had any experience of the appeal, you obviously haven't. You have not advised me of anything.

 

Still defending the member of staff when you wasn't there (unless you are the person involved!).

 

Please explain what about my attitude you do not like, because I didn't suck up to you. What you have said has not taken this forward at all unless it was to massage your own ego about how much you 'think' you know!

 

You really don’t get it, do you? I have offered you experience based advice, I just haven’t spoon fed you. If you want it in black and white, then yes, I have heard of people appealing and having their PFs withdrawn. How does that help you though? That’s a rhetorical questions.

 

Telling you about the fact that should the matter go to court, it would be a criminal matter, as far as I’m concerned is more beneficial, as you indicated you’d fight it at court as long as it remained civil.

 

regarding your attitude; You just come across as an entitled snowflake to be honest. I’ve bulleted it nonetheless though - 

 

• Tarring staff with the same brush, indicating that the job of an RPI attracts bullies, isn’t helpful and is frankly untrue. 

 

• The need to put things in quotes, indicating that something is my view and not the truth, is a poor and uninformed assumption

 

• The lack of a simple, “thanks” or “cheers for your help” after even my first reply, is bad mannered.

 

• the fact that in your initial post here you have simply assumed the PF would be written off, again hints at you inability to listen to reason and an over all attitude.

 

• The fact that I’ve found it necessary to spend 20-minutes writing these bullet points.

 

A couple of final thoughts;

 

I know full well some staff are unprofessional and frankly should not be in the job, but we should tar everybody with the same brush. I’d say 90% of the posts I’ve seen of this nature indicate staff were rude and aggressive, and that percentage simply doesn’t ring true. I will advise never to start an appear off in this way, as it looks like excuses...and...

 

I don’t write anything I THINK I know. I only write about what I ACTUALLY know about. And no, the staff member wasn’t me

Edited by Stigy

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EB - I have already stated that the Oyster has already been cancelled and the print out from TFL shows that she tapped in but then did not tap out. It was not used after that. All the stations she uses have barriers so cannot get through without a card or ticket.

I was no way being aggressive, just thought that the comments were not entirely helpful. Stating byelaws etc was not what I wanted, just some advice from someone that may have been through the process.

 

Stigy - I was not making excuses for my daughter losing her card, just annoyed (as any father should be) that a older person has reduced her to tears when a more sympathetic approach would not have done.

You call me an entitled snowflake, i will treat the comment with the contempt it deserves. When you are born & bred in Dagenham you don't get entitled to anything, you have to work for everything you have/want.

Looks to me that you work in the industry so the comment in your last post "I have heard of people appealing and having their PFs withdrawn" should have been in your first post when you decided to give me a lecture about rules/regs. If it had of been it would have been more help even if you had put some caveats in.

 

Basically what I can deduce is that she may be lucky on appeal, if not a decision has to be made. 

 

 

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you didnt state that the card HAD been cancelled, you need to reread what you actually wrote which was station staff thought that the ticket will be cancelled.

Ths doesnt suggest any sort of timescale or action. I would still get her to ask for the inforamtion regarding any subsequent attempt to use the card as it will strengthen the argument for theft rather than loss and they will be obliged to withdraw the penalty in the same way that you arent responsible for your car parking on a double yellow after it has been stolen. all down to what is called performance.

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