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HSBCandMe

Defaulted HBOS loan from 2004 sold to Cabot

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10 hours ago, Dodgeball said:

 

Was this 

APR is 9.9, near enough. Regulations say no more than .1% but it is only a minor beach, no court would bother over it. (deminimis.

 

APR is important because it prevents lenders from hiding additional costs, a provided a true representation of the borrowing / allows fair comparisons between lenders when took out loan.

 

Mis-sell? 

 
de minimis errors of 0.1% can be disregarded. 
 

Consumer Credit Law and Practice para 13.64 states as follows: 

 

“Anything more than a de minimis misstatement will make the default notice invalid... It also seems to follow that a substantial error in stating any of the other items listed will be fatal.”

 

43 In the same textbook, at para 5.168: 

Unless the error or omission is minor, there is a breach of the Regulations. It must follow that the statement is invalid, and thus of no effect for all purposes”.

 

The question is: 

 

1. Is the APR out by 0.3 / 0.4%?  CCA states 9.5% but I make it 9.8% (?)

 

2. discrepancy of 0.1% should in our view be disregarded on the basis of the de minimis principle. Does this make the CCA unenforceable? 

 

3. If it does, can I use 127(3) to argue its irredeemably unenforceable?  However, the only prescribed term is the total amount of credit not interest, so I don’t think 127(3) is relevant here. 

 

4. Am I better off taking a dispute to the FCA instead? 

 

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I cannot see any dispute to take.

 

As I said APR is not a prescribed term, although important. If you mentioned it as part of action it would render the agreement unenforceable under section 65, which means that the court has to issue an enforcement order under section 127, but such an order would not be prohibited by section 123(7).

 

The court would examine the amount of harm done to the debtor by the error, the sanction imposed would reflect this, from experience, there would be no sanction and no benefit to you.

 

You could do a little fishing and ask the OC to explain the discrepancy, never know may turn something useful up.

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At the risk of being hated even more. I also wrote a piece about APR in 2009, it may be useful if you want to understand the inns and outs, this was also copied by various posters onto many forums.

 

 

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Ok thanks. Not looking too good then? 

 

But, do you think they preloaded the interest up front?  I cannot see how this agreement differs so very much from the masterloan one?  Or am I missing something obvious? 

 

 

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Thats very helpful, thank you. Well written and clear. 

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The problem earlier was in the restructure for the second loan, with the method they used and information they had. it would have been impossible to create an accurate copy.

For instance, they matched the APR with the old one. This is not possible using only the details they had available.

You can calculate the interest, but the APR contains all other costs of credit, fees. insurance etc. there is no way they can know what was in the missing agreement.

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DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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Thanks, as always. Useful clarification ref masterloan. 

 

I am hoping I can still do something on the HBOS matter, though, as it seems to me I shouldn’t have been paying out on a loan that included 5 years of interest when I defaulted, just perhaps the capital from then on (as they froze interest on It when it went to collections ).  Let us see what they say...

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Cabot wrote today, saying Wescot have handed collections back to Cabot.  Is this a sign of things hotting up? 

 

They also made an offer of settling for 42% of outstanding debt.  

 

Any views on this and whether, in light of the above comments on the CCA, I should accept? 

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typically a discount means there are problems wit the debt

be that paperwork

or the balance

penalty fees , PPI anything like that in it?
 


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No ppi. There was the £50 penalty fee and £50 courier fee (attachments, above). Balance, I have argued above, includes preloaded interest (surely?).  

 

In your experience, what should my next steps be? Should I fold, make a counter offer or continue dispute?  In light of the CCA being (prima facie) enforceable? 

Edited by HSBCandMe

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well £50+int doesnt = 42%

and 42% is a weird figure to offer a discount on.

 

somethings up IMHO.

 

wait and see what they send next

don't forget they've got to send a PAP letter before they try and litigate.

do we know if things like the DN exist?

has HSBC gotten an sar sent yet

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MAKES A THREAD TWICE AS LONG TO SCROLL THROUGH!

 

WE CAN'T GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU SEND ME A LINK TO YOUR THREAD - I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER HELP THERE

1. Single Premium PPI Q&A Read Here

2. Reclaim mis-sold PPI Read Here

3. Reclaim Bank Account, Loan & Credit Card Charges Read Here

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The claim is for £7K odd.

The settlement offer is for approx. £3K. 

 

'I THINK' the £4K discount is suspiciously like the amount of interest HBOS preloaded to the credit and (and I never got a rebate). Earlier posts refer. 

Anyway, it looks suspiciously like.

 

Their stoopid £50 charges are just powder added to my ammo, the real issue is the interest. 

 

Also, the APR is way out (above the de minimis).

However, it is not I gather a prescribed term, but does call into question the amount owed under an otherwise valid CCA

 

 

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7 minutes ago, HSBCandMe said:

 

The claim is for £7K odd. The settlement offer is for approx. £3K.  'I THINK' the £4K discount is suspiciously like the amount of interest HBOS preloaded to the credit and (and I never got a rebate). Earlier posts refer.  Anyway, it looks suspiciously like.

 

Their stoopid £50 charges are just powder added to my ammo, the real issue is the interest.  Also, the APR is way out (above the de minimis). However, it is not I gather a prescribed term, but does call into question the amount owed under an otherwise valid CCA

 

 

2

In your defence you could say:

The APR calculated to 99% rather than that indicated in your reconstruction. I remind you that the FCA defines an acceptable margin of error as .1% below the actual value or 1% above, this represents a breach of section 65-127(1) CCA1974.

 

The increased APR also leads me to believe there was another item in the charge for credit, That or the repayment details were incorrect, which would render the agreement unredeemable, not having the original it is impossible to ascertain what was on it..

 

AS well as the other factors I submit that it would be extremely unlikely, and certainly beyond the realms of the evidential test for you to be able to reconstruct a Section 77 compliant copy

 

feel free to alter/ammend substitute/ correct spellimg etc/.

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It may be as said that one or some of those charges were within the TCC, this would account for the error.


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BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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I posted up the photocopy of the signed CCA earlier. This is not a recon. You took the view, I think, it was enforceable.

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6 hours ago, HSBCandMe said:

I posted up the photocopy of the signed CCA earlier. This is not a recon. You took the view, I think, it was enforceable.

Yes and I think I pointed out that the enforceability of the CCA is dependant on more than the document you posted. On its own, the agreement sites all the correct terms and is compliant with section 77.

However, it also has to comply with the agreement(copy) you signed, how can anyone who as not seen that document say one way or the other.

I went on to explain how it would be impossible to calculate the terms on the second agreement from the first as the first did not exist. I seem to be constantly repeating myself, and I do not see you doing anything to move this case forward. 


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BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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But you can see it’s the one I signed - it’s a photocopy if it. 

 

Are you confusing this thread with my masterloan thread? 

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4 hours ago, Dodgeball said:

However, it also has to comply with the agreement(copy) you signed, how can anyone who as not seen that document say one way or the other.

 

Post #7. 

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