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craigten

Taking HSBC to Court to obtain my data!??

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17 minutes ago, craigten said:

 

Gosh I am struggling to pick this up clearly (I am sorry) - by breaching GDPR, you mean by not being able to prove that they have destroyed the data, as claimed?

 

No. I mean that they misled you in respect of their GDPR obligations and also on the basis of their stated retention policy, they have misled you in respect of that as well.

I think for the moment that you should send the second SAR to the other address and see what that produces.

Can you tell us what loan or credit card et cetera you think the PPI policy was in respect of.

Also, in your new SAR you should make it clear that you are interested in all the records including microfiche records and refer them to their own policy in which they make it clear that some of their records are stored in that form.


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Brilliant stuff!!!! I shall get on the second SAR to the other Coventry address. 

 

Re the loans, if you mean amounts and dates, I think I have those, I'll get searching.....

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And account numbers


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6 hours ago, BankFodder said:

Also, in your new SAR you should make it clear that you are interested in all the records including microfiche records and refer them to their own policy in which they make it clear that some of their records are stored in that form.

 

I'll include this that I posted earlier, then:

 

The HSBC Debit Card Cardholder’s Agreement

https://www.hsbc.com.sg/1/PA_ES_Content_Mgmt//content/singapore/hsbcjade/displays/pdf/jade-debit-card-tnc.pdf

 

Specifically, page 9;

General
16.1
Our records (including computer and microfilm stored records) of all matters relating to you are conclusive evidence of such matters and is binding against you for all purposes, save for manifest error, but subject to our right to rectify any error or omission therein and our right to adduce other evidence. We may, in our discretion, destroy any documents relating to any Card Transaction after microfilming or otherwise recording the same in such manner as we may deem fit as well as to destroy such microfilm and records at any time.

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Good morning.

I was up until 1am this morning going through the DSAR info that I was sent from Canada Square and found some very interesting items which I'll post later - I think they constitute evidence but I'd prefer your opinion (lots of copies of statements from as far back as 2006, so far beyond the fabled six years!).

 

For now, until I get back home, what do you make of this internal memo, is it me or does it show that there was PPI?

PROOF OF PPI MAYBE.pdf

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Well it certainly appears to identify five different policy numbers. Does that reflect your own recollection that you had five PPI policies?


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I think so....but I need to check one of them (the only one they did provide me the application form for that showed there was no PPI), in the meantime, re details of the loans, they sent this.....

details of loans.pdf

 

I have 12 pieces of what I would tentatively call 'evidence'. I have scanned, anonymized and converted to PDF. I have them seperately and joined in one file but I really think that posting them individually would be beneficial here because they all show different things.

Thoughts?

 

However, in the meantime, here's something I think you will find very interesting.

Ever heard of banks / HSBC using a company called 'Iron Mountain' to store their records?

Take a look at this internal memo that I found from 2012.....

INTERNAL MEMO - IRON MOUNTAIN02062019.pdf

 

I'm thinking of sending an email and then a paper DSAR to Iron Mountain....a good move?

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1 hour ago, craigten said:

I have 12 pieces of what I would tentatively call 'evidence'. I have scanned, anonymized and converted to PDF. I have them seperately and joined in one file but I really think that posting them individually would be beneficial here because they all show different things.

Thoughts?

 

However, in the meantime, here's something I think you will find very interesting.

Ever heard of banks / HSBC using a company called 'Iron Mountain' to store their records?

Take a look at this internal memo that I found from 2012.....

INTERNAL MEMO - IRON MOUNTAIN02062019.pdf 291.08 kB · 2 downloads

 

One file please


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Okay, at least let me reference them so they make some sort of sense:

  1. Copy of 2012 letter showing loan back in 2004 (more than 6 years from that date)
  2. Copy of statement from 2006 (Only after I blanked out my transactions did I realise that I have also erased the date showing it was from 2006 but it is) that came with the DSAR so they do have at least some data from as far back as 13 years ago.
  3. Copy of 2010 letter stating that they are 'unable to provide you with the Loan Agreement Forms for all of the loan accounts held with us prior to this (6 years) period', but later in 2012 they sent me the LAF from 2004? (coincidentally, the only one that doesn't have PPI), but then state 'Please note you can take this letter as confirmation that you have not had PPI for any of your loans'. How on earth can this be true if, as they say, they don't have the records?
  4. Similar to 3, copy of letter sent in 2012 giving Loan account details but stating that due them being 'closed prior to six years' then can't send me the Loan Agreement Forms....but in the next paragraph say that they will send the LAF for a loan way back in 2004 (8 years previously).
  5. Copy of letter from 2010 giving the loan details but that they 'confirm that none of these loan accounts had Loan PPI', no mention of the 6 year 'rule' here, so how can they confirm this?
  6. Darn it, same as 4.
  7. Copy of 2013 Internal Memo / letter to me stating that they 'Can't find any evidence of PPI' but then say that 'any records may have been destroyed' due to the 6 year 'rule'. A contradiction.
  8. Copy of letter sent to me in 2018 stating no PPI but not specifying that there were loans....but not mentioning the loan from 2016?
  9. Copy of Internal Memo from 2012 mentioning Iron Mountain. Do we already know that HSBC use this company?
  10. Copy of Internal Memo from 2012 stating that 'Customer not aware of the following loans...'
  11. Copy of letter from February 2019 in reply to my DSAR  request where they neither confirm or deny that they have my data from my requested first date of 24 January 1996 (when I first joined them).

And I earlier posted the copy of a 2012 Internal Memo that appears to me to show that I did have PPI on my loans.

 

Please let me know what you think about these documents and whether I should send a DSAR to Iron Mountain?

 

Thanks so much.

ALL_IN_1.pdf

 

Further to this, please allow me to paste in a 'Live chat' I had with the ICO on these issues. I feel that their response is helpful with regards to evidence?

(I have been advised not to paste in long conversations in posts before but I really think this excerpt is relevant so please allow it. Particularly relevant bits in bold):

 

Me: Regarding your earlier point, HSBC have included in their response to my SAR, a photocopy of a loan I have had with them with details (account number, sort code, amount of loan, etc)from as far back as 2004. However, this is the only loan I had that didn't have PPI with and this is the only one they have supplied copies of. Does the fact that they have provided this, obviously more than six years old, evidence that they do keep said records?

ICO: Possibly, though this may depend on when the loan finished. If the loan finished over 6 years ago, then it may be indicative of them holding information for longer than they claim. However, if the loan finished within the last 6 years, it may simply be that some details had to be retained for the purposes of the continuing loan.

Me: It finished 59 months after 10th June 2004, which is May 2009, over six years ago.

ICO: Then the question they would have to answer is why they still have that information if their retention period cuts off at 6 years

Me: Agreed. I have here a letter from them dated 11.02.2019 that provides details (account numbers, sort codes, dates of closures, from as far back as 1997. So this shows that they DO have these records, would you agree?

ICO: Yes, it would imply that they have retained some data at least from before their defined retention period. They may not necessarily have the full records, but it would certainly indicate they have some information on file.

Me: Their reason for not supplying more details is 'Please be advised that the below mentioned loan accounts were closed prior to six years, therefore we are unable to provide you with details of the loan accounts or copies of the loan agreement forms as requested'. This also strongly implies that they do have the data, would you agree?

ICO: It sounds as though they have some data to indicate you had a loan with them. However, I cannot comment on what exactly that data is likely to be, or whether this in itself indicates they have retained the actual loan agreements. If you are not satisfied with their answer, you can submit a complaint to us and we can make an assessment on this: https://ico.org.uk/make-a-complaint/your-personal-information-concerns/

Me: One more thing,
in a recent call with HSBC that I recorded, the customer services advisor explained that by 'records' they mean paper records and that records and details of loans are 'probably' kept on microfiche. Am I entitled to this data being as it is data about me and my transactions with them?

ICO: Yes, any data being held by an organsiation would potentially make up a subject access request, as long as the data is in some sort of discernible filing system.

Me: Thank you, Other than make a complaint, which I definitely will, is there a way that I can make them provide me with this data?

ICO: Well if you made a complaint and we found in your favour, we could tell them to release the documents. The only other way I can think of would be to obtain a court order for the information.

Me: Also, microfiche is a descernible filing system?

ICO: If they can search it, then yes I would imagine so

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Microfiche is definitely a relevant filing system for the purpose of data protection. Years ago when we were dealing with bank charges, we had a number of banks including Barclays and also Abbey – now Santander – which were refusing to supply data on microfiche. A complaint to the ICO produced an instruction from the ICO all banks that microfiche was included.


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Thank you for that.

 

Any thoughts on my PDFs of evidence, and the reference to Iron Mountain in the internal memo?

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You can certainly try sending an SAR to iron Mountain but I doubt whether they will comply on the basis that they are not data processors – they are just data holders.

On the basis of what you have – do you think that you now have enough evidence to establish that you did have PPI? Have you got any evidence as to the sums which are being insured? Have you any evidence of the payments you are making?


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5 hours ago, BankFodder said:

On the basis of what you have – do you think that you now have enough evidence to establish that you did have PPI

Although my opinion is not as important as you guys', if pushed I would say what I have up to this point is not quite enough. I have proof that they contradict themselves in stating that they do not have data past their 6 year threshold, but that's not the same thing.

To my mind, the only firm evidence that I had PPI is the PDF from post #64.

 

5 hours ago, BankFodder said:

Have you got any evidence as to the sums which are being insured? 

Darn it, yes I have somewhere. I must look further in to my records (piles of papers in the spare room)

 

5 hours ago, BankFodder said:

Have you any evidence of the payments you are making?

I have no evidence of any payments that I ever made towards loans.

 

What do you think, please?

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9 minutes ago, craigten said:

Darn it, yes I have somewhere. I must look further in to my records (piles of papers in the spare room)

 

 

 

I'm sorry to say that this is the second time I've asked you somewhere on the thread as to whether or not you have certain information and your response has been that you probably have and that you will look for it.

I think by now you should be in control of all the information you have and that you should have a properly sorted and index file so that you know your way around. Don't seem to be taking this sufficiently seriously yet.

Secondly, you have PPI policy numbers so why is that not sufficient evidence to begin a claim?


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You couldn't be more wrong. I have a young child to take care of, a full time job and Parents who are unwell, I'm running at maximum capacity and am trying very hard. I can assure you that I am taking this seriously. If I do happen to miss one question every now and then, please cut me some slack. I am trying. 

 

On ‎03‎/‎06‎/‎2019 at 20:07, BankFodder said:

 


Secondly, you have PPI policy numbers so why is that not sufficient evidence to begin a claim?

 

Why, you ask? Because i do not see that I do have PPI policy numbers. The PDF in post #64 refers to loan account numbers (I have cross checked these), I do not believe these are not the same as PPI policy numbers.

Additionally, in answer to why have I not started a claim, I have no proof of PPI payments so how would I get to a figure?

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Well this screenshot which I've taken from the document which you put up in your post number 64 looks to me as if they are evidence of PPI policies together with the policy numbers

image.thumb.png.f2292a01060071fe8d30ef9b51e2dd8b.png


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13 minutes ago, craigten said:

 

You couldn't be more wrong. I have a young child to take care of, a full time job and Parents who are unwell, I'm running at maximum capacity and am trying very hard. I can assure you that I am taking this seriously. If I do happen to miss one question every now and then, please cut me some slack. I am trying. 

 

 

Why, you ask? Because i do not see that I do have PPI policy numbers. The PDF in post #64 refers to loan account numbers (I have cross checked these), I do not believe these are not the same as PPI policy numbers.

Additionally, in answer to why have I not started a claim, I have no proof of PPI payments so how would I get to a figure?

 

Also, I appreciate that you are under other pressures – but this is an extremely important issue and could be very valuable to you and of course the banks deadline for claims is coming up in a month or so.

We are now two months into this thread and I would have thought that you would find it very helpful – and in the long term, ease a lot of the burden from your shoulders if you made a project of going through all the paperwork and constructing a file and indexing it. I have some suggestions about how this can be done if you follow the link SAR – Post number five in that thread


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I agree that they look like evidence, but I am concerned that they are all my sort code and account numbers (403013, etc) and not Policy numbers per se. I may seem to be slow in hiiting 'Go' on this but I want to be as sure as I possibly can be that I don't shoot my bolt - I only have one go at this.

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Are you saying that you have five different bank account numbers?


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Also I notice that in post 66 you put up a one-page PDF document about details of loans but I notice that at the bottom of that document it says very clearly that it is page 1 of 2. Where is the second page?


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I am. I have different accounts for different purposes - Direct Debits, Car repairs, etc.

However, scrub post #80, I am very wrong.

 

Let me try to clarify -

All account numbers in that PDF are not my bank account numbers. They simply start with my sort code. My bad.

 

However, as much as I want that PDF to be my evidence of PPIs, you will see that the details of 1) below, which looks like evidence of a PPI policy:

 

 

Is actually the same as the proof of no PPI that they did send me, here in 2):

 

 

Do you see what I mean?

1).pdf 2).pdf

 

I can't see how to paste screenshots like you did?

 

On ‎03‎/‎06‎/‎2019 at 20:48, BankFodder said:

Also I notice that in post 66 you put up a one-page PDF document about details of loans but I notice that at the bottom of that document it says very clearly that it is page 1 of 2. Where is the second page?

I will sort this out shortly.

 

On a slightly different matter, I've just been on Live chat with HSBC (all recorded) and two of the most pertinent quotes from it regarding getting records of my old loans were:

HSBC: We will send it to you and you will receive it within 10 working days.
Me: Please tell me if you have the info to hand?
HSBC: it is still in our system.

 

Bankfodder, do you think this constitutes evidence (as in to help make the Judge think that HSBC do have records beyond it's 6 year so-called policy)?

 

and when questioned on the 6 year issue:

 

HSBC: We aren't allowed to keep your information available for consumption if it's over 6 years, anything beyond 6 years it must be requested differently as what I have mentioned earlier. This is for the security of your information given to the bank.

The 6 year rule is a business policy we practice at HSBC UK.

The information would be available for you to access but if it's more than 6 years, the information would be obtained from the data protection office

Data Protection Office,
HSBC Bank Plc
Griffin House,
GH1- 01,
41 Silver Street Head,
Sheffield,
S1 3GG

 

On ‎03‎/‎06‎/‎2019 at 20:48, BankFodder said:

Also I notice that in post 66 you put up a one-page PDF document about details of loans but I notice that at the bottom of that document it says very clearly that it is page 1 of 2. Where is the second page?

 

Here you go. You will see that it is details of the loan that did not have PPI on....according to this. I'm not sure what to believe?

PAGE 203062019.pdf

Edited by craigten

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8 hours ago, craigten said:

I will sort this out shortly.

 

On a slightly different matter, I've just been on Live chat with HSBC (all recorded) and two of the most pertinent quotes from it regarding getting records of my old loans were:

HSBC: We will send it to you and you will receive it within 10 working days.
Me: Please tell me if you have the info to hand?
HSBC: it is still in our system.

 

Bankfodder, do you think this constitutes evidence (as in to help make the Judge think that HSBC do have records beyond it's 6 year so-called policy)?

 

and when questioned on the 6 year issue:

 

HSBC: We aren't allowed to keep your information available for consumption if it's over 6 years, anything beyond 6 years it must be requested differently as what I have mentioned earlier. This is for the security of your information given to the bank.

The 6 year rule is a business policy we practice at HSBC UK.

The information would be available for you to access but if it's more than 6 years, the information would be obtained from the data protection office

Data Protection Office,
HSBC Bank Plc
Griffin House,
GH1- 01,
41 Silver Street Head,
Sheffield,
S1 3GG

 

Under the data protection rules you only have to supply a single SAR and it is up to the data controller to search their entire organisation and to produce the disclosure within 30 days. If they are saying to you that you have applied to the wrong place and you should apply to somewhere else for data relating to a different timescale then they are acting unlawfully.

Not only that, but there is a cascade system which means that if they have a number of organisations within their general company structure then it is for them to cascade your disclosure request to all of those organisations.

 

 

10 hours ago, craigten said:

I am. I have different accounts for different purposes - Direct Debits, Car repairs, etc.

However, scrub post #80, I am very wrong.

 

Let me try to clarify -

All account numbers in that PDF are not my bank account numbers. They simply start with my sort code. My bad.

 

However, as much as I want that PDF to be my evidence of PPIs, you will see that the details of 1) below, which looks like evidence of a PPI policy:

 

 

Is actually the same as the proof of no PPI that they did send me, here in 2):

 

 

Do you see what I mean?

1).pdf 56.16 kB · 2 downloads 2).pdf 166.99 kB · 2 downloads

I'm afraid I don't really understand – and particularly I don't understand that the loan agreement referred to in document number two appears to begin in 2004 whereas the PPI policy referred to and which carries the same number begins in 2007.

Also is it just a coincidence that a further loan – the one you have referred to in post 86 – begins exactly the same date in 2007

 

Also I don't really understand why all of the five policy numbers are described as personal protection policies – and yet somebody is saying that they are not.


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You are absolutely right in all that you say. 

 

Yes, that’s what the person on Live Chat is saying. However, the truth of the matter here, in my experience, is that the people on Live Chat don’t know their behind from their elbow and often get things wrong.....but my feelings are that that’s not my fault and a Judge would see it, correctly, as they are HSBC and that’s the information they are providing.

Would I be right in they presumption?

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We simply give advice and opinions here and you shouldn't necessarily treat us as too authoritative. At the end of the day you need to use your own judgement.

Have you made a further SAR request yet?

You say you only have one chance – but that's not correct. You have five chances because as I understand it you think that you have five policies. You could start probing by simply claiming against one policy and see what happens.

I still think that you need to arrange your file so that you have got everything in order – all your ducks in a row.

I understand very well your situation – the fact that you are a single parent et cetera. However at times like this you need to start reprioritising. If you do manage to make a valid claim then it will be precisely the people who are depending on you who will benefit so there is no particular conflict between their interests and your interests in successfully reclaiming PPI.

Also, if you take control of your files, it will probably help us as well. We provide all the support we can here free of charge – but you need to realise that we have our own families and our own domestic issues and our own relatives who may be unwell and our own dependents who need our support. So we are finding the time to look after their interests and our own interests as well as your interests.

I'm sorry if this sounds a bit tough – but that's the truth of it and most people who come to this forum for help seem not to take that into account until it is pointed out them


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I understand completely, I really do. I appreciate ALL the help I get on here and think it’s the most wonderful tool available. 

I have previously made a relatively decent donation on here, and will do so again.

 

What you say doesn’t sound ‘tough’, it sounds perfectly correct.

 

I think organising my files as your post suggests, is wonderful and I’ll get to it as soon as I can!!

 

Thank you!

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